No knotting to anchor?

cluckcluck

Hall of Fame
A local shop has standard that I've never seen before and I'm not sure is legit, though it does work.
While I don't have a picture I will try to describe it to you:

The starting cross is not anchored to the main by way of a knot, there is a knot but it's just sharing the starting hole - the knot is sinched before tensioning, then the remaining crosses are weaved and tensioned as normal.

I found it a little concerning as I would think the knot would come undone and or the string would get pulled through the grommet.

Have any of you seen this in shops or by stringers?
 
I would think this is a method that is totally ACCEPTABLE. (If I am understanding it correctly) In fact, there are many knots in the USRSA digest that do not involve an anchor string. One is a figure 8 knot that ties onto itself. On this "free floating knot", the bulk of it keeps it from sliding through the grommet when pulling tension on this starting knot. Since it is not tied around an anchor string, no risk of damaging it. So in this case, it is a better knot. I don't use this knot ( I use the fishing knot), but I see not much wrong with using it. It will not change the characteristics of the string bad at all.
 

cluckcluck

Hall of Fame
I would think this is a method that is totally ACCEPTABLE. (If I am understanding it correctly) In fact, there are many knots in the USRSA digest that do not involve an anchor string. One is a figure 8 knot that ties onto itself. On this "free floating knot", the bulk of it keeps it from sliding through the grommet when pulling tension on this starting knot. Since it is not tied around an anchor string, no risk of damaging it. So in this case, it is a better knot. I don't use this knot ( I use the fishing knot), but I see not much wrong with using it. It will not change the characteristics of the string bad at all.

I don't think it's a "better" knot. Just seems out of the ordinary and not a best practice.
 

drakulie

Talk Tennis Guru
Problem with this knot is that if it is not done correctly and efficiently or the grommet hole has widened too much, the knot will slip thru the grommet. Safer to anchor the knot on a string.
 
Problem with this knot is that if it is not done correctly and efficiently or the grommet hole has widened too much, the knot will slip thru the grommet. Safer to anchor the knot on a string.


True, that can be said about any starting knot. I choose my starting knot for the fact it doesn't put much pressure on the anchor string. When it is holding 50+ lbs of tension, I don't think it matters that much. But anyway, I think we can conclude it is ok to do, and shouldn't be looked at as something that is "not acceptable".
 

PCS_Super

New User
sounds a bit weird but it is plausible... a better option would be just to use a starting clamp and not go pulling tension on grommets with a starting knot in the first place
 

Joonas

Semi-Pro
One could ask why not to tie a knot to another string?
How many times you have seen mains break under the knot for cross?
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
There was a guy who posted here about using fishing crimps for tie offs once. I didn't like the idea but if you have problems with tying or breaks it may be worth a try for you.
 

Joonas

Semi-Pro
I havent seen any strings broken at the knot. Not the ones I have strung nor the ones strung by others.

I am just keen to see if anyone have some theory why tying cross to mains would be not good. I heard someone was telling me this. I just dint get an answer why.
 
One could ask why not to tie a knot to another string?
How many times you have seen mains break under the knot for cross?

Some racquets are like this. I know the Babolat Pure Storm, you need a starting clamp to string it as recommended and tie it to a cross. But I think the good practice is to find a starting knot that doesn't put too much force on the main string. The "fishing knot" is a good example of this. Like people have said, in today's age, you don't see breakage due to the starting knot on the main hardly ever. Perhaps if you are tying to natural gut or another "fragile" string, it might be more of an issue.
 
sounds a bit weird but it is plausible... a better option would be just to use a starting clamp and not go pulling tension on grommets with a starting knot in the first place

Using a starting clamp is not necessarily a "better" option. It is another option. There are pros and cons to each method ( as well as to ATW, 50/50, etc).
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
The weakest part of the string is at or under the knot. If you tie the knot too tight or wrong you could break the string you're tying at the knot or weaken the anchor string you're tying to.
 

Joonas

Semi-Pro
The weakest part of the string is at or under the knot. If you tie the knot too tight or wrong you could break the string you're tying at the knot or weaken the anchor string you're tying to.

Irvin, this what we all have been told/ saying for ages but really have you seen strings breaking under the knot?

I have tied gut to poly, poly to gut, nylon to poly, poly to nylon etc. and never ever seen a break under the knot.

And I have also seen very weird knots...
 

Irvin

Talk Tennis Guru
Irvin, this what we all have been told/ saying for ages but really have you seen strings breaking under the knot?

I have tied gut to poly, poly to gut, nylon to poly, poly to nylon etc. and never ever seen a break under the knot.

And I have also seen very weird knots...

Yes I have but it was always at the top of the frame and could have been attributed to shear also. I have also broken strings tying knots but not for a long time. Some people get too concerned about getting the knots tight and get them too tight.
 

diredesire

Adjunct Moderator
Irvin, this what we all have been told/ saying for ages but really have you seen strings breaking under the knot?

I have tied gut to poly, poly to gut, nylon to poly, poly to nylon etc. and never ever seen a break under the knot.

And I have also seen very weird knots...
It happens more often than you'd think. Normally it's on the machine with a gut anchor, though. This is generally with an improper "starting" knot (read as: DHH). Also there are people who try to tie/cinch the knot too hard, and snap the anchor. It's not common, but it DEFINITELY happens (search and you'll see).

As far as no anchor knots, the figure 8 is completely acceptable, but it's uncommon.
 

Joonas

Semi-Pro
Well lot of funny things happen out there. But my point is that breakages should happen almost only due to the improper knotting.

So even if the symptom is broken anchor string the reason can't be tying a knot to it - but improper way to do it. So then the question should be back to proper ways of stringing shouldn't it?
 

diredesire

Adjunct Moderator
Well lot of funny things happen out there. But my point is that breakages should happen almost only due to the improper knotting.

So even if the symptom is broken anchor string the reason can't be tying a knot to it - but improper way to do it. So then the question should be back to proper ways of stringing shouldn't it?

What's your point here? There's nothing really improper about the figure 8 -- the figure 8 is a perfectly "legitimate" knot. It's just an uncommon technique. At some point a Wilson Pro or a Parnell knot was also non-standard and uncommon. It's now a very popular knot. There's nothing inherently wrong with tying a figure 8 if that's what you want to do. I personally don't because there's a lot of extremely sharp bending going on, but if it holds it's fine. Grommet damage from the figure 8s i've seen is no more dramatic than a bulky-ish starting knot. I have no idea how well it'd hold on a well used grommet, though.
 

struggle

Legend
I'd think a knot encompassing the anchor string would more evenly flare the grommet by not bunching the entire knot to one side of the "anchor"/main sharing the hole.

I use a starting clamp but i've yet to break an anchor string tying off and i snug up pretty good.
 

Joonas

Semi-Pro
What's your point here? There's nothing really improper about the figure 8 -- the figure 8 is a perfectly "legitimate" knot. It's just an uncommon technique. At some point a Wilson Pro or a Parnell knot was also non-standard and uncommon. It's now a very popular knot. There's nothing inherently wrong with tying a figure 8 if that's what you want to do. I personally don't because there's a lot of extremely sharp bending going on, but if it holds it's fine. Grommet damage from the figure 8s i've seen is no more dramatic than a bulky-ish starting knot. I have no idea how well it'd hold on a well used grommet, though.

My point is simply to address the issue discussed here and separate it to useful practices. I wasn't talking about figure 8.

You see, if only argument against tying cross string to an anchor string is to protect the anchor string then I believe that we should direct the discussion to good ways and harmful ways. Now I was trying to ask around if there are other worries regarding tying to an anchor string. Obviously none was brought up. But somewhere else I have heard some concerns about playability and hence suggestions to tie the cross next to the anchor. I don't believe in this.

So as I said I have never experienced breakage in the anchor string under the knot then I should share how I do it.

I always use a starting clamp and tie off by using parnell. And yes the knot doesn't need to be tightened too tight.
 
My point is simply to address the issue discussed here and separate it to useful practices. I wasn't talking about figure 8.

You see, if only argument against tying cross string to an anchor string is to protect the anchor string then I believe that we should direct the discussion to good ways and harmful ways. Now I was trying to ask around if there are other worries regarding tying to an anchor string. Obviously none was brought up. But somewhere else I have heard some concerns about playability and hence suggestions to tie the cross next to the anchor. I don't believe in this.

So as I said I have never experienced breakage in the anchor string under the knot then I should share how I do it.

I always use a starting clamp and tie off by using parnell. And yes the knot doesn't need to be tightened too tight.

I think we can all agree it is best practice to find a starting knot that puts the minimum amount of stress on the anchor string. With the figure 8, this is a moot point. But on starting knots that tie around the anchor string, there are better ones in terms of stress on the anchor string. Even tie off knots can put too much force on the anchor string depending on the circumstances. Even though it is usually uncommon for something bad to happen, it is always best to do everything you can to make sure it doesn't.
 
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diredesire

Adjunct Moderator
I'd think a knot encompassing the anchor string would more evenly flare the grommet by not bunching the entire knot to one side of the "anchor"/main sharing the hole.

I use a starting clamp but i've yet to break an anchor string tying off and i snug up pretty good.

Have you tried a figure 8? If not, are you willing to do it? I'd be interested to see a photo-evidence comparison between the two. Anyone up for the challenge? :)

My point is simply to address the issue discussed here and separate it to useful practices. I wasn't talking about figure 8.

You see, if only argument against tying cross string to an anchor string is to protect the anchor string then I believe that we should direct the discussion to good ways and harmful ways. Now I was trying to ask around if there are other worries regarding tying to an anchor string. Obviously none was brought up. But somewhere else I have heard some concerns about playability and hence suggestions to tie the cross next to the anchor. I don't believe in this.

So as I said I have never experienced breakage in the anchor string under the knot then I should share how I do it.

I always use a starting clamp and tie off by using parnell. And yes the knot doesn't need to be tightened too tight.

Wait, I apologize if I'm still missing the point here, but it seems like your original question was NOT about the figure 8, but rather about tying off with no anchor string? This is almost never the case, as the anchor string is more or less required for a finishing knot. To my knowledge, there really isn't any argument against tying to an anchor string in general (as you note), so I feel like the train of reasoning here is kind of off topic from the original question? :confused: (correct me if I'm mistaken, I feel like I'm missing something). I don't think the starting clamp is really relevant to the question. This isn't really about best knotting or (cross) starting methodology, I think that's more or less been discussed to death. Your method is 100% acceptable, no arguments there :)
 
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