No more pre-match warmup?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by West Coast Ace, Dec 23, 2011.

  1. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    #1
  2. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    I actually agree with this and always have. Even though it's been apart of the game since day dot, well since I've been watching it which isn't really a long time since the early 90's. I've always wondered why they do it apart from the obvious reasons of preventing injury etc or probably more likely to get your hand-eye coordination in sync, but u would think as a professional athelete a private warm up in the gym which is what they do I'm sure pre-match would do the same. Imagine if boxers had a sparring match before they start, I'm sure it doesn't even happen in other racquet sports like table tennis/squash etc. So I also actually agree with this that it shouldn't be apart of the game, I mean they are there to compete and in a way it demeans the competitve aspect of the game. - My two cents.
     
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  3. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    lol how the hell are you guys comparing boxing with tennis. With boxing or any fight sport you can warm up the exact same moves in the locker room before your fight. In tennis you can't practice your serve and forehand and backhand in a locker room. So unless before every single tennis match both players are giving a practice court (which would be impossible) it's a totally stupid and irrelevant analogy
     
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  4. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

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    Stupid idea is stupid
     
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  5. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    Because people can’t grasp the concept that with individual sports it’s not the sport that’s popular, it’s the players. Look at boxing. When Tyson was wrecking face everyone was talking about it. Now, nobody cares a lick about the HW belt. Tennis is the same. If tennis isn’t as big as it was in the 70s and 80s it’s not the sport, it’s the players playing it. Which are no longer regular humans with emotions and a personality, but Formula 1 drivers with robotic mannerisms and a sheltered ivory tower lifestyle out of the public eye. How can anybody get attached and interested in people like that?
     
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  6. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    +1. You made me think of this: can you imagine if they brought guys into the ring and let the boxers knock them out? That would be so sick.

    @LameTennisPlayer, it's 8 minutes. Are you really that busy? I want the best tennis. And I think the pre-match warmup gives us a better shot of getting it.
     
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  7. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    Do marathon runners run a marathon before a marathon? My point was more along the lines of it demeaning the competitive aspect of the sport by warming up pre match with your opponent, because in my opinion, and it's my opinion a professional athlete should be 100% prepared for a match vs an opponent(s) if there are any.
     
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  8. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    The WTA and ATP have actually been talking about this for at least 5 years ago. The reason for it is simple. TV coverage. Back in (I think) 2007, the average time from when the players walked on court, got ready for the warm-up, did the coin toss, had the warm-up, then got ready for the match was over 9 minutes, and the TV networks (not only in USA) complained about it. One of the suggestions was that the umpire would do the coin toss off court while the players were waiting to come on court, and then they come on court, get their racket, and play.

    The main argument with that was that it wouldn't be great to do the coin toss off court, because the players should have a chance to see where the sun is and what the wind is like before making their choices.

    Another idea was to have a shortened (3 minute warmup).

    Another idea was to come on court, do the coin toss, and start the match with no warm-up.

    None of them went through though. Instead, we are now instructed to be strict on the 5 minute warm-up time. I don't know if the TV networks have complained lately though.
     
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  9. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    Based on what? A warm up? Then how long must it last to optimise both players so that they play at their peak? 5 mins/10 mins? 30 mins? Too many factors here.- Rhetorical question. You have nothing to compare it to because your used to the current situation as it stands. If they came out of the blocks and played after the coin toss, the momentum from the start will be different, which could alter the result of the match. I'm not saying things should change, I like the way things are, but if you look at this point from a different perspective like what hawk-eye has done to the result of matches it'll give you a different point of view.
     
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  10. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    @Woodrow, thanks for the Knowledge. Interesting - you'd think TV would love the opportunity to go to a few commercials. Unless they think people channel surf for 5 minutes knowing they won't miss anything...
     
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  11. Devilito

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    so should the NBA and NHL stop with warm ups before the games as well?
     
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  12. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    how original, haven't heard that one before *sigh*
     
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  13. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    I don't follow them, so it doesn't bother me the slightest.
     
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  14. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Guest

    Well, I agree that they would like the opportunity to go to a few commercials. But I think what they were complaining about is that the average tennis match goes about 2 hours or so, and if they block off 2 or 2 1/2 hours of programming time, and then they lose 10 minutes for the warmup and for players like Nadal taking 3 minutes to turn his water bottles the right way, they either have to cut their TV coverage off early, or run into the next time slot.
     
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  15. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

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    but you follow marathon running?
     
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  16. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    yeah why my flatmate runs in marathons, does that bother u?
    I don't follow the NBA or NHL, because we don't get alot of coverage of it here in Oz, other sports like Cricket/AFL and league/union take priority.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
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  17. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

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    Team sports usually are more player than one to one sports. Would NFL, NBA, football be as popular if it was one guy vs another guy?
     
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  18. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    At pro events, most players either warm-up a couple of hours before, or just before playing, and sometimes both/twice. Also, most tour events have fitness centers in the main stadium, and the players get on the bikes, tredmills, etc. Players do footwork drills in the hallways as well just before being led out to the court.

    The real issue with the 5 minute warm-up is rhythm, and anyone who has played knows that you always try to stretch the 5 minute warm-up time to get the best rhythm before play on that particular court. Most of the time, readiness is really dependent upon the player's POV, and mostly due to their own individual psychological/emotion pacing, which is difficult to adjust.

    Sometimes, you can send a Lendl type player on-court and have him play easier until he gets his grove to rev it up, and it works well. But if he plays an Agassi/Roddick type personality, he'll feel rushed from jump. Conversely, for strategic reasons, you can send the same player out to play high energy just to take advantage of a slower Lendl type player, and it backfires because it isn't his real rhythm and visa-versa, as it is tough to take an Agassi/Roddick type player and have him pace his in-between time and stroke rhythm to be more methodical.
     
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  19. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    Nice explanation, but where do you stand on whether it's required or not required. Sure it allows players to get a groove or feel etc, but it penalises those who are able to get out of the starting blocks quicker than others. I'm not against hitting the treadmill or lightweights session, to get the blood flowing etc etc it's mandatory to prevent injury. But a pre-match warm up in a sense it's a replica of the actual event itself with the actual opponent you are facing without actual scoring still doesn't sit well with me, never has never will.

    And as I mentioned before, how can you optimise both players to play at their peak with if you want to stretch the 5-minutre warm-up time to get the best rhythm, every player is different and 5 mins maybe enough for one person 10 mins for another, 0 mins for someone else.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
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  20. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    I stated my preference in my second paragraph. I actually believe that it should be ten minutes. Every player feels rushed in that 5 minutes. I don't care who you are, unless you are the exception. I've played hundreds of matches and sent players out to play thousands of matches, and no one has ever stated or intimated that they felt that they wanted to play right away, and that the 5 min warm-up was too long. I've even deliberately sent a player on-court, refusing the 5 minute warm-up, and the opponent always flips-out.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
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  21. Hood_Man

    Hood_Man Legend

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    I hope it doesn't go, I just like that it's an extra few minutes of build up before a match, and it adds some time for the commentary team to bring any relevant stats, stories, information etc. Anything that wouldn't seem relevant if the cameras were looking at crowd shots or the empty court.
     
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  22. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    That's fine, if your preference is 10 mins. My preference is 0 mins. I don't see that happening any time soon. It doesn't bother me if it changes or if it doesn't. In my opinion an athlete should be ready to play when the match begins without a pre-match warm up including an opponent they are about to face. It's how it's always been since I've watched it. It'll be interesting to know if this has always been the case.
     
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  23. TennisLovaLova

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    Nothing in the article says its official. Only murray and macenroe arr pushing for it. And I think it's total stupidity. The players need at least to feel the ball 5/10 minutes to be ready to play. Physically they are ready, but this is tennis, a sport with a lot of complex parameters so the body has to get used to the ball, the court, the crowd, the light, etc.
    The feel is important in tennis.
     
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  24. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Then you are the exception. Do your opponents get bent when you want to start playing a match before they are ready to play, may I ask?

    Poll a 1,000 players and ask them this question, and I will guarantee you, that except for a few juniors, 99 out of 100 players would say that 10 minutes is more reasonable for both who warm-up fast and slow, so dumping the 5 minutes would be welcome buy almost no one.
     
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  25. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    OK so in a 2-3hr match you don't think either player would get a feel for the match at some point, without the current pre-match warm up? Of course both will, and at different times or sometimes at the same time, making the pre-match warm up irrelevant.
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2011
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  26. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    This isn't personal. I just don't agree with the current format, and I've explained my reasons. I'm entitled to an opinion, I don't expect everyone to follow suit.
     
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  27. ALL IN

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    Tennis is not the same as other sports. The lighting, court surface and conditions vary throughout the day and are most likely very different on a stadium court than the practice court you just warmed up on. This is a very stupid idea. The important first few games of the match would be impacted negatively.
     
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  28. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    I am not begrudging your opinion, I am just asking why you as a player would not want those 5 minutes or more?
     
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  29. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    Negatively? How so? A champion can win in any conditions. With or without a pre-match warm up. Pancho Gonazales 1 serve/point match is a good example. The business end of the set for me is more important than the first game or two. And which is also why the 7th game of a set is of high importance to win statistically.
     
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  30. ALL IN

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    Because he has probably not been the (competitive) player as often as he was the spectator.
     
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  31. InspectorRacquet

    InspectorRacquet Semi-Pro

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    Very true. Even when I warm up with my hitting partner on a different court, I still like even 5 minutes of warm up to adjust to the court I'd be playing on for the next hour or so.

    I'm not even that sensitive to many changes in the court or my equipment, but if the professionals notice a slight drop in string tension, it ought to be an enormous difference when they play on a completely different court than the one they warmed up on. In all fairness, tennis should be more tailored to the players, not the viewers.
     
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  32. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    I can recall a match on TV where Agassi had opportunities in his first service game, but got broken, and subsequently lost the match in straights, and in the post-match interview stated, "If I held my first service game, it would have been a different match." That is certainly not an isolated example, as many a match has been won or loss in the first game, and for many reasons.
     
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  33. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

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    The only thing they need to look at is enforcing the time allowed between points.
     
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  34. ttbrowne

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    Love the knock-up.
    Consider this:
    Boxing: Why not put the boxers in the middle of the ring, arms length away from each other with their fists cocked.
    Running: Don't allow the runners to stretch or warm up before a match.
    Baseball: No batting practice...nor can pitchers warm up in bullpen
    Basketball: No shoot-a-rounds
    Football: No practicing before game
    See how stupid all of the above sounds. Just as stupid as not having a knock-up.
     
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  35. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    I like to compete quicker. It's just how I am. I don't mind warming up etc, but as soon as the other person is ready to play, then I'll start. With table tennis/pool/squash, whatever it is.
     
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  36. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    This assumption is based on what- your style in poker?
     
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  37. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    I think that you would find that at least 80-85% of the players find 20 seconds too short. The 30 second rule is more appropriate, but they reduced it for the same reason as lowering the speed limit; there are those who will always drive 10 mph over the limit. So the 20-second rule turns into 30, and the 30-second rule becomes 40 seconds. It's up to the ref, just like the traffic cop, to decide to nail the player/driver for 5-10 sec/mph over the limit.
     
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  38. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    That's cool. So 99% of the time in any sanctioned event, unless the ref is on-court, than all of your tennis matches are going to have a minimum of 5 minutes to warm-up or more, if your opponent pushes the ref and keeps hitting serves.
     
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  39. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    No doubt. Matches are won or lost by a single point not just a game. 2011 USO Fed vs Djoko semi is a prime example. Are you saying had Agassi had a longer pre-match warm up he would have been more prepared? If that was the case doesn't it prove that pre-match warm ups favour those who take longer to get feel for the game and penalises those who don't?
     
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  40. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    and your point is? ....it's then btw
     
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  41. Homeboy Hotel

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  42. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    Yep, for sure.

    As I mentioned in my first post, if you can get/gotten a guy like Agassi or Roddick to be more thoughtful from jump, many of their results would have been different. Both have lost many a match as they moved quickly from one point to another without assessing and adjusting their tactics. A longer, more methodical warm-up would have allowed him to see what he didn't see in the first game, where he was already racing, which caused him to play from behind the rest of the match, to press, and to rush. If he recognizes what happens while it happens, as he did once he became older and more thoughtful, he most likely would have been correct, having won the first game, he would have changed the complexion of the match, and possibly even its outcome.
     
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  43. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    a knock up is a simulation of the actual event or parts of without actual scoring your comparisons are incorrect so in

    boxing-actual boxing without taking score
    running-actual running the with all the contenders without noting who came first/second...etc
    baseball- simulation of a game without taking score
    basketball- same as above
    football-same as above
     
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  44. TennisMaverick

    TennisMaverick Banned

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    My point is that no matter what you prefer, 99 out of 100 matches that you play, your opponent will force you to hit for a minimum of 5 minutes. Thus, if you do not adjust your mindset, then your emotional arousal levels in the beginning of the match will not be optimal if you become impatient during the warm-up. Any good opponent would recognize any uncomfortableness and use it against you in the match. You certainly have had opponents in sanctioned events mess with your head, I'm sure, as that comes with the territory.
     
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  45. Pwned

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    LameTennisPlayer: you don't play tennis do you?
     
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  46. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    I don't see how one example can or should apply to everyone.

    Well, your right on this. It doesn't bother me prior to play that the pre-match warm up exists it's because I expect it, and play it through. It's more the time in between points that vary, and I don't think I'll be alone on this one.
     
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  47. LameTennisPlayer

    LameTennisPlayer Professional

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    Do you always do what you are told, and never challenge anything? Doesn't sound like you win much.
     
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  48. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    The warm-ups must remain.
     
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  49. TennisMaverick

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    That's just one example. as I previously mentioned, it happens frequently for many reasons.

    Are you actually saying that you have never been in a match where what happened in the first three games did not totally affect the outcome of the match? IMPO, that is impossible unless you got waxed every sanctioned match.

    And then, I am sure that you've experienced irritation many-a-time from opponents who will then make you wait on every point until they emotionally get the upper hand, whether you speak-up or counter-act. When that happens, do you go to an umpire, ref, or do you go to the hookfest?
     
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  50. LameTennisPlayer

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    Par 1- That's not what I meant. Of course I have. Your emphasis was more on analysis, taking a step back and re-thinking what didn't work and what will etc. I was saying that this doesn't apply to everyone in all cases. Even that method is prone to analysis paralysis.

    Par 2- Yes I have, I've learnt to play through it. And forget that I have to wait, works better for me, but not always.
     
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