No "Pet The Dog" on 2HBH?

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by TheLambsheadrep, Feb 6, 2013.

  1. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    You're right. Because so many rec players have mastered that aspect of the game.
     
    #51
  2. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    It really depends on the player. Most rec players need work on their footwork and form. And never forget all the pushers out there. Their good footwork doesn't mean that they're ripping the ball.

    To be a top player you need both. I'm still not convinced teaching someone good footwork means they'll naturally adopt good stroke form.
     
    #52
  3. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Julian,

    Thanks for the update on your taxonomy. Why do you believe the right hand grip is more important (for a r-hander) than the left hand grip when describing the 2hbh?

    I currently hit with a continental for my right (dominant) hand and hold extreme-eastern fh grip for my left hand. I haven't thought of using a different grip than continental for my right hand because it allows me to easily do the 1hbh slice. When I watched Nadal practice, I noticed he seems to hit his slice bh with something closer to an eastern forehand grip. I'm wondering if he uses that same grip when he hits his 2hbh?
     
    #53
  4. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I need some time to think

    WildVolley,
    I need some time to think
    I will travel tomorrow/Sunday so it will slow down my response
    Sorry
     
    #54
  5. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Grips

    WildVolley,
    let me summarize couple of observations.
    We will start from very trivial ones.
    I will formulate couple of open questions and retire.

    1.I believe that the left hand grip stays UNCHANGED during the stroke of
    Djokovic

    2.I believe that the RIGHT hand GRIP of Djokovic CHANGES during his BACKHAND.

    3.I believe that an angle of a face of Djokovic CHANGES during his BACKHAND.

    4.Do we in US teach this kind of stroke (on the BACKHAND SIDE)?

    5.Do Spanish teach this kind of stroke?
    6.I have never taught something like item #2

    Is it worth doing in the case of High Performance Juniors?
    I do NOT know-it complicates a PROGRESSION for sure
    I do NOT think you feel my pain :)

    7.Do we do a drill at which students (righties) are hitting a forehand by a LEFT HAND?
    I am NOT sure ANY MORE whether it is worth doing (I used to do use this drillwhen coaching)
    The problem is an angle of a FACE of a racket at a contact

    8.
    See as well post #2 of THIS THREAD

    9.I have checked as of TODAY there are NO tennis blogs by tennisspeed about BACKHAND
    so we cannot compare

    10.All this conversation is about balls bouncing at the level of WAIST or a bit higher

    11.I see PRONATION of a LEFT HAND PALM.
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    #55
  6. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I do NOT know whether the RIGHT HAND GRIP is more important

    I do NOT know whether the RIGHT HAND GRIP is more important
     
    #56
  7. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Please see post #55

    Please see post #55
     
    #57
  8. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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    Generally dominant hand means the hand that you play with when you play one handed - for most people that's all strokes except bh. If you're right handed then it's generally your right hand unless Tony Nadal is your uncle. It's kind of gender neutral terminololgy, except for handedness.

    On a 2hbh it is common that the non-dominant hand (i.e. the left hand for a right hander) controls the stroke, but that doesn't make it your dominant hand.

    If you have two handed strokes on both sides it can get confusing - or more confusing I guess. But almost everyone serves with one hand (except with that crazy two handed racquet), so that would be your dominant hand I suppose.
     
    #58
  9. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Got it. My confusion was in that I consider my 2hbh as much a left-handed fh as I can make it.
     
    #59
  10. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Julian,

    About point #2. I only see a grip shift during the start of the takeback. It seems to me that Djokovic i) sets his left hand in the position he wants, and then ii) rotates his fh grip with his right hand to something between a continental and eastern bh and the start of the takeback.

    Are you seeing the right hand shift grips at some other time during the stroke?
     
    #60
  11. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Only ONE change for BASELINE STROKES(NOT return of serves)

    Only ONE change of GRIP for BASELINE STROKES(NOT return of serves)
    It looks a bit more complex for returns of serve
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    #61
  12. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Right foot landing for Wozniacki

    Right foot landing for Wozniacki
     
    #62
  13. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Why NOT tilted face of a racket on a contact?

    Why NOT tilted face of a racket on a contact?
    ------>
    Talk Tennis > View Profile
    Reload this Page julian
    ------>
    provides info how to contact me if needed
     
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2013
    #63
  14. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Very hard to see a change of grip of Wozniacki

    Very hard to see a change of grip of Wozniacki
    i.e I do NOT see any
     
    #64
  15. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    DO we hit backhand as Djokovic?

    I duplicated my post about TEACHING just to have everything in one place
    The basic question is "do we teach backhand correctly?"
    Basically the current way of teaching of the double handed backhand is as follows:
    1.a continental grip for the right hand plus an OPEN FACE of a racket at the highest point of the backswing
    2.NO SWITCH of grip for a right hand AFTER the highest point of the backswing
    3.the vertical face of a racket at a contact

    What Djokovic shows is a bit different:
    1.a continental grip for the right hand plus an OPEN FACE of a racket at the highest point of the backswing
    2.A SWITCH of grip for a right hand
    3.the vertical face of a racket at a contact
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #65
  16. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    ^^^Julian

    I don't see the same as you I think when I look at Novak's backhand. Having just at at three different slo-mo video's I see:

    1. Conti-grip right hand, but mostly a neutral racquet face at the highest point (slightly closed on occasion) - I feel the racquet face position here relates to the grip of the non-dominat hand (i.e. more western will be more closed)
    2. I don't see a grip switch on route to the ball, only the dominant wrist going into flexion
    3. Racquet face slightly closed at contact...

    [​IMG]

    So either we are using different definitions or maybe Novak has made changes over the years and we are looking at video's from different stroke evolutions?

    Cheers
     
    #66
  17. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Different videos

    Dear Mr Ash Smith,
    thank you for responding
    Please see
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM


    Another videos available at tennisplayer.net
    Please go OVERTHERE to HighSpeed Archives at the home page.
    There are two sections:
    Neutral Stance
    Cases Side1
    Side2
    Side3
    Side4
    Open Stance
    Cases Side1
    Side2
    Side3

    You can see that a face of a racket is tilted towards the ground just after the start of the FORWARD SWING

    There is an analysis of Petrova as well at tennisplayer.net by the user tennis_chiro
    in a thread I started.

    You are welcome to send me an E-mail as well via googling

    Julian W.Mielniczuk
    PS
    Because of snow in Boston I cannot come to London this week :)
    My user name at tennisplayer is julian1,NOT julian
    PS #2
    I cannot run your video-I see only a STILL from
    http://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh157/AceOnTheLine/ScreenShot2013-02-12at164112_zps22310df2.png

    PS #3 Let us agree about one thing:
    for backhand a face of a racket tilted MUCH LESS than for forehand (at a CONTACT)
    Ps #4 The video quoted by me is from the Australian Open 2012,I believe

    PS #5-Videos provided by jY are of 250 fps or 500 fps
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #67
  18. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Yes, the racquet face closes on approach to the ball, I still think this is down to Djokovic's strong top hand grip and bottom hand wrist flexion, which if I am correct would suggest that the PTD position in a 2 hander would be grip/arm configuration dependant?

    Agree the racquet face is less tilted at contact than for a typical forehand.

    The video I took a cap from is the same as the link you posted.

    Were you due to be coming to London? How bad is the snow over there? If we get so much as 0.5cm the whole country grinds to a halt!!! :D
     
    #68
  19. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    2-3 feet

    We got 2-3 feet depending on the area
    Stupid people closed the airport in Boston.
    Stupid people introduced a travel ban on state highways in MA.
    We have two other airports -one in Rhode Island and the second in New Hampshire
    but of zero use if you cannot get there via highway.
    I have one more complaint:
    very hard to buy very good quality tea from Taylors of Harrogate
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #69
  20. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Basic tools

    Ash,
    The next stage would be to compare a forehand by Djokovic (hit by left
    hand) against his backhand.
    One part can be done by Dartfish,I believe
    One can see Nadal as well.
    A thumb sticking out
    A location of one palm vs another
     
    Last edited: Feb 12, 2013
    #70
  21. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    I thought petting the dog was a good thing. Love your family pet and give it good dog food
     
    #71
  22. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I agree with Ash. I don't see a grip change in the middle of the grip. I think the wrist laying back (flexion) during the forward part of the swing is looking like a grip change even though the hands are locked-in.

    I still see a slight elbow extension at the initiation of the forward swing, which I guess could be called a remnant of a "pat-the-dog" type motion, but the fact that Djokovic doesn't bend his arms much and really doesn't have a loop takeback limits the possibility of that type of motion.
     
    #72
  23. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    i will respond tomorroe

    I will respond tomorrow
     
    #73
  24. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Could u clarify"

    your quote
    ---->
    a grip change in the middle of the grip.
    ----->
    Could you elaborate?
     
    #74
  25. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Yes, I believe it was just a mistype. I meant to type: in the middle of the "swing."

    In other words, I see the grip set at the beginning of the takeback phase of the overall stroke, and then there is no grip change thru contact.
     
    #75
  26. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Elbow extension?

    Is it possible to produce a time stamp for an elbow extension?
    i.e which time do you see "it"?
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
    #76
  27. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Now, I'm not sure what video I was watching. Watching some of the linked videos above, I'm not seeing it at all. So perhaps it was a one-off thing.

    So, I'll say today that I don't see the elbow extension in the transition, though Djokovic does straighten his arms a little bit as he swings to hit the ball.
     
    #77
  28. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Elbow extension for FOREHAND

    Just couple of simple comments
    Say that we have a video of Djokovic hitting FOREHAND by a RIGHT HAND.
    Do we see elbow extension?
    Probably yes.
    Say that we have a video of Djokovic hitting FOREHAND by a LEFT HAND
    Probably yes (one can this kind video via Dartfish,I believe)
    It is interesting that we do NOT see it clearly for a DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
    #78
  29. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Nadal,Djokovic and Petrova

    I have some observations about Nadal and Petrova.
    Petrova
    I will post time permting.
    Petrova was coached by Mohammed Seif,her parents and Vladimir Platenik
    I saw some videos at tennisplayer.net
    A steep angle of a face of a racket
    Takeback is NOT high-NOT sure whether it was related to a PARTICULAR bounce of a ball
    Takeback NOT compact (at least in cases I saw)
    Nadal
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
    #79
  30. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    The instruction is to help teach muscle memory and help the student trust the face of the racquet when it's moving forward before it will make contact with the ball properly so the mind can focus in other things and they won't wrist/turn the racquet face for last minute adjustments before they hit the ball.

    When you get better and your swing incorporates the entire motion, it may or may not resemble exactly a racquet face position that is exactly parallel with the ground. It is a teaching aid and is used to teach the brain what to sense at a point in time during a full swing.
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2013
    #80
  31. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Great to hear from you BB! As you can probably tell, this thread was inspired by your forehand learning tip. Do you have an opinion on "is there no PTD on professional backhands?" If there is no PTD, why do you think that is (since it is utilized on the forehand)?
     
    #81
  32. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Bill,

    Great to see you active in TT again!



    Can Bill or anyone elaborate how to produce power with the 2hbh? Where does its power come from?

    Do you pull the racket handle around?

    (I could hit an average, satisfactorily consistent 2hbh but it lacks power.)
     
    #82
  33. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Could you look into post #80?

    Could you look into post #80?
    Did the author meant "parallel with the ground" or "PERPENDICULAR to the ground"?
    Just checking
     
    #83
  34. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Julian, just saw this message.

    BB means parallel to the ground. But he's specifically talking about the "pat-the-dog" motion of the swing. The distinctive feature of the "pat-the-dog" is that the face tends to turn almost parallel and actually parallel with the ground during some swings. I always understood that was what BB meant, you actually turn the palm of your hand down as though you were patting a large dog on the back during the transition. From this definition, Djokovic definitely doesn't do anything like this with his 2hbh.

    The face will then tend to open up to a less-closed position at contact during the forward swing.

    I think we could also consider some of the outward elbow extension as being something similar, even if it isn't pat the dog. I'm specifically thinking of someone like Del Potro, who doesn't tend to pat-the-dog, but seems to extend the arm out during the transition phase.

    Have you seen the latest blog post by SpeedMaster? It is worth checking out.
     
    #84
  35. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    I do use PTD for the twohanded backhand when developing it. However, my goal isn't to make it perfectly parallel when allowing the player to swing freely. I use PTD on both sides to teach trust, eliminate last minute wrist movement, and to teach brushing up the backside of the ball at contact.

    I use it to simply to teach the mind how the racquet/hands should feel like when the player is swinging the racquet when it reaches that position. If I can get the player to make his adjustments further back in the swing motion rather then before contact I can progress in teaching the player to hit a cleaner ball with power and spin. This is really all I use PTD for.
     
    #85
  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Your legs and shoulder rotation. Relax the arms/hands. Dominate hand should slightly push through the ball. Bottom-hand is relaxed and its placement is mainly for racquet face stability. It should not fight the other hand. Meet the ball slightly in front of you. Don't crossover with your front foot blocking your hips from rotating.
     
    #86
  37. Mahboob Khan

    Mahboob Khan Hall of Fame

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    With the double handed backhand it's almost fatal to use "closed stance" because this creates excessive twist on the lower back. The open stance for cross court, and square stance for down the line shots, are the best stances to go with the 2-handed BH.

    I used to have my daughter (RH player) hit lefty forehands to train her left hand also and because of this her 2-handed BH is the best shot.
     
    #87
  38. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Hi Bill,

    Thank you so much.

    I understand everything you wrote, except your terms of "dominate hand" and "bottom-hand". Which one is which? I'm lefty so my 2hbh hits the shot on the right side of the body!
     
    #88
  39. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

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    Ahhh, sorry. I meant TOP-HAND (instead of dominate) and bottom-hand...for you your dominate hand (left hand) is the bottom hand.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
    #89
  40. EP1998

    EP1998 Semi-Pro

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    Do you suggest a big takeback for the shot? I am wondering if that would improve power.
     
    #90
  41. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    The E-mail address of the author

    The E-mail address of the author is made more or less "public
     
    #91
  42. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    not sure about petting the dog but I know that CHOP slice by Federer does NOT work.
     
    #92
  43. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    I like Djokovic

    I like
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM
    I try to teach as close to this link as possible
    I do NOT know whether it is a "big takeback"
    I would say it is "compact" or "SMALLER".
    I think it improves ssc
    I will try to expand a bit later
    PS Just to be specific:
    I am talking about baseline stroke ONLY (no return of serve)
    I am talking about DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND ONLY
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #93
  44. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Which level are we talking about?

    Which level are we talking about?
     
    #94
  45. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Elbow Flexion (?)

    Ash,

    There is a latest BLOG-
    Friday, February 15, 2013
    A Roadmap to a Hall-of-Fame Forehand - Part 9: An Anatomical Comparison of the Federer and Djokovic Forehands

    The blog describes Djokovic
    and HIS RIGHT elbow flexion.
    I am trying to see how to "compare" a forehand by Djokovic (say a LEFTY forehand)
    with his double handed backhand
    Do "we" have common "building blocks",etc,etc
    between FOREHAND and BACKHAND?

    WildVolley brought an issue of elbow extension (probably elbow FLEXION in the case of Djokovic) for DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
    The next issue is an ANGLE of a face of a racket at contact for a DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND.
    It is probably a dead horse already (sorry animal lovers).


    regards,
    Julian
     
    #95
  46. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    Julian,

    Looking at the video of Djokovic hitting backhands that you've cited:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlmhJTUFEfM

    I believe I see a slight amount of elbow extension into that shot (I'm talking about Djokovic's left arm). Watch it and note whether his left arm straightens from the end of the takeback to hitting the ball. I believe he is marginally extending the elbow (straightening the arm) into the 2hbh. If anything, I believe he hits it with a straighter arm than he does with his fh.

    Watching these videos, most 2hbh players have much less of a loop takeback on the bh-side as compared to the fh-side. Especially for players who hit a fh with a fairly straight arm (Nadal, Federer, Verdasco) the arm is bent more in the takeback and therefore there has to be straightening (elbow extension) prior to the shot. My interest in this extension is whether it is also helping some sort of reflex rather than just extending the arm straighter and perhaps allowing a greater arc on the swing and thereby easier pace and spin.
     
    #96
  47. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Different videos

    WildVolley,
    I have seen couple of videos at tennsplayer.net
    Those videos are 250 fps.
    They show even more ELBOW FLEXION (and probably ELBOW EXTENSION) than the link above.
    The side views are FROM THE RIGHT,not from the left
    Interestingly enough REAR VIEWS and CENTER VIEWS are of some usefulness.
    We are entering the very old conversation STRAIGHT vs BENT somehow (for the left hand)
    Another issue "left" is the return of serve
    (supposedly reaching 110 MPH).
    http://www.tennisicoach.com/node/3387 shows stills for Ivanovic with a SIGNIFICANT ELBOW FLEXION
    regards,
    Julian
    PS
    I understand Ash has an access to other 3 videos ( which he did NOT specify)
    I do NOT have an access to tennisone any more so I cannot compare with videos there
    PS #2 Tomorrow/Monday I will be away from this forum till 4:30 EST
    PS #3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPBM-hE1Dhw
    around 0:08/0:12 shows a moment when the LEFT HAND is straight
    One has to stop a video and next use a right arrow of a laptop
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #97
  48. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    Reflex

    I do NOT understand the phrase "REFLEX"
     
    #98
  49. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    My understanding is that a reflex motion is one that occurs without nerve signals progressing all the way to the brain and then being sent back to the muscles. A reflex action will cause a muscle to tighten (for instance) without the signal having to be processed by the brain. For example, when you jump, say long jumping, the leg will take a huge amount of weight for a very brief instance and if done properly cause the muscles to contract very quickly due to reflex.

    I believe the claim of a stretch-shortening cycle in some strokes, whereby a muscle is stretched and then rapidly contracts against the stretch is an example of a reflex action.

    So in the context of a forehand, the question is whether the straightening of the arm is just to put the arm in a proper position at contact, or whether it is causing some muscles, say forearm, to be stretched and fire quite rapidly around contact.
     
    #99
  50. julian

    julian Hall of Fame

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    We will get to SSC in a moment

    WildVolley,
    we will get to SSC's in a moment
    We have AT LEAST TWO SSC's for forehand
    1.SSC of shoulder rotator cuff muscles of a RIGHT HAND.
    2.SSC of forearm muscles of a RIGHT HAND.
    It is possible that the first SSC overlaps with the second SSC.
    Possibly SSC related to muscles of legs is used as well to confuse everybody.
    (legs are early in the kinetic chain)
    The blog claims that Djokovic is NOT using the first one correctly/efficiently FOR FOREHAND-please see the corresponding parts
    of the blog.
    Obviously one can say that we have BOTH SSC for the DOUBLE HANDED BACKHAND
    or at LEAST THE SECOND ONE if Djokovic uses his LEFTY FOREHAND.
    The next question is the length of SSC-probably around 40 milliseconds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013

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