Non 128-players draws for old slams

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by vive le beau jeu !, Apr 23, 2012.

  1. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    today, all the slams have a 128-players draw, but it's not always been like this...

    i think (correct me if i'm wrong) that the last non 128-players draw for a slam was the 1987 australian open:
    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Event-Draws.aspx?Year=1987&EventId=580&Draw=ms
    it was a 96-players draw. it seems that all the 16 seeds (there are 32 seeds in the slams only since wimbledon 2001) received a bye, and that 16 other byes were randomly distributed in the draw.

    but sometimes, there have also been more than 128 players, such as the 1972 US open.
    it doesn't appear on the ATP online database:
    http://www.atpworldtour.com/Share/Event-Draws.aspx?Year=1972&EventId=560&Draw=ms
    but it does on the ITF online database:
    http://itftennis.com/procircuit/tournaments/women's-tournament/info.aspx?tournamentid=1010004556
    (with an interesting emerson-borg in this 'extra' 1st round) ;)

    so... a 256 draw with 108 byes = 148 players.
    - strangely, it seems some seeds (e.g. cliff drysdale [11]) had to play an extra round while some unseeded players didn't... does anybody have more info about how they made the draw ?
    - is this the largest draw ever for a pro-tournament ? (the other extreme being the pepsi grand slam quartet ?) ;)
    - does anyone have something like a table with the number of players in the draw for the slams of the open era (or further back in time if you can !) ?
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
    #1
  2. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Every major since the 1987 French Open has had 128 players. The Australian Open between 1982-1987 had 96 players and between 1974-1981 it had 64 players. For further back, I'll need to check my records.

    Edit: Here they are:

    1968 French Open: 104
    1968 Wimbledon: 128
    1968 US Open: 96
    1969 Australian Open: 48
    1969 French Open: 128
    1969 Wimbledon: 128
    1969 US Open: 128
    1970 Australian Open: 48
    1970 French Open: 128
    1970 Wimbledon: 128
    1970 US Open: 108
    1971 Australian Open: 48
    1971 French Open: 128
    1971 Wimbledon: 128
    1971 US Open: 128
    1972 Australian Open: 50
    1972 French Open: ?
    1972 Wimbledon: 128
    1972 US Open: ?
    1973 Australian Open: 56
    1973 French Open: 128
    1973 Wimbledon: 128
    1973 US Open: 128

    It was interesting to note that Borg's debut at a major was at the 1972 US Open rather than the 1973 French Open. At the 1972 US Open, Emerson beat Borg 7-5, 6-7, 6-4, 6-4 in the R256.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2012
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  3. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    thx mustard !
    yes it's a pity that borg's 1st slam match (23 'virtual' slams were on the court during this match !) doesn't appear in the ATP databse... they should correct it !

    so it seems you found better than the 148-draw of the 1972 USO with the 172-draw of the 1971 RG ! what's your source, by the way ? (personnal work from some old tennis books ?... or a secret informer ? but maybe you don't want to ruin his cover...) ;)
    seems the ITF database is incomplete for that one (it appears as a 128-draw):
    http://itftennis.com/procircuit/tournaments/women's-tournament/info.aspx?tournamentid=1010004437

    now... is there a non-slam event that could beat that draw size ? unlikely, but we never know... ;)
     
    #3
  4. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    Where are you seeing 148 players at the 1972 US Open?
     
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  5. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    There's a lot of stuff the ATP website should correct and put in. There's a lot of absent and false results on there.

    Oh yes. Thanks for spotting that, woodrow1029, and sorry vive. Counting all the players in those draws is a bit of a nightmare, but it's less than 176 and 148. My results archive records of the majors go back to the start of the open era, but from the 1968 French Open to the 1973 US Open, I have all the results from the Round of 32 onwards with just select results from previous rounds. I only have the full results of every major from the 1974 Australian Open onwards.

    For example, here's my 1972 French Open archive:

    1972 French Open
    Surface: Clay (Orange)

    Seeds
    1. Jan Kodes 8. Zeljko Franulovic
    2. Ilie Nastase 9. Patrick Proisy
    3. Stan Smith 10. Alex Metreveli
    4. Manuel Orantes 11. Clark Graebner
    5. Bob Hewitt 12. Jimmy Connors
    6. Andres Gimeno 13. Jaime Fillol Sr.
    7. Pierre Barthes 14. Frantisek Pala


    A Round of 256 Match
    Guillermo Vilas def. Steve Faulk (7-5 6-3 6-4)

    A Round of 128 Match
    Guillermo Vilas def. Kim Warwick (6-3 6-0 6-0)

    Six Round of 64 Matches
    Patrick Proisy def. Jose-Edison Mandarino (6-3 8-6 6-3)
    Guillermo Vilas def. Bob Hewitt (0-6 8-6 8-6 2-6 6-2)
    Jimmy Connors def. Antonio Munoz (6-3 7-5 8-6)
    Andres Gimeno def. Jaime Pinto-Bravo (6-2 6-2 6-1)
    Stan Smith def. Jean-Loup Rouyer (6-4 6-2 6-4)
    Adriano Panatta def. Ilie Nastase (1-6 9-7 6-4 6-3)

    Round of 32
    Jan Kodes def. Frew McMillan (6-3 6-0 6-2)
    Barry Phillips-Moore def. Onny Parun (6-2 6-4 6-2)
    Ian Fletcher def. Francois Jauffret (6-8 6-3 6-2 6-4)
    Patrick Proisy def. Juan Gisbert Sr. (6-4 6-2 2-6 8-6)
    Manuel Orantes def. Boro Jovanovic (6-0 6-1 6-1)
    Nicola Pietrangeli def. Jaime Fillol Sr. (6-3 6-2 4-6 6-4)
    Guillermo Vilas def. Szabolcz Baranyi (3-6 6-2 5-7 8-6 6-3)
    Harold Solomon def. Jimmy Connors (6-4 7-5 6-1)
    Clark Graebner def. Jiri Hrebec (6-1 6-0 6-4)
    Andres Gimeno def. Patrick Hombergen (6-1 6-3 6-1)
    Frantisek Pala def. Brian Gottfried (10-8 10-8 9-11 8-6)
    Stan Smith def. Bernard Mignot (6-3 7-5 7-9 6-3)
    Alex Metreveli def. Wieslaw Gasiorek (6-0 6-4 7-9 7-5)
    Pierre Barthes def. Geoff Masters (6-3 6-3 6-4)
    Raymond Moore def. Andrew Pattison (Walkover)
    Adriano Panatta def. Vladimir Korotkov (6-1 2-6 7-5 6-3)

    Round of 16
    Jan Kodes def. Barry Phillips-Moore (6-4 6-2 6-4)
    Patrick Proisy def. Ian Fletcher (6-4 1-6 6-2 6-3)
    Manuel Orantes def. Nicola Pietrangeli (6-2 6-1 6-3)
    Harold Solomon def. Guillermo Vilas (3-6 8-10 6-2 6-4 6-4)
    Andres Gimeno def. Clark Graebner (3-6 6-3 5-7 6-2 6-1)
    Stan Smith def. Frantisek Pala (6-4 6-0 6-3)
    Alex Metreveli def. Pierre Barthes (8-6 6-2 10-12 6-3)
    Adriano Panatta def. Raymond Moore (6-0 7-9 6-3 6-2)

    Quarter Finals
    Patrick Proisy def. Jan Kodes (6-3 6-8 2-6 6-2 6-1)
    Manuel Orantes def. Harold Solomon (6-4 5-7 6-3 6-2)
    Andres Gimeno def. Stan Smith (6-1 7-9 6-0 7-5)
    Alex Metreveli def. Adriano Panatta (8-6 7-9 6-3 6-3)

    Semi Finals
    Patrick Proisy def. Manuel Orantes (6-3 7-5 6-2)
    Andres Gimeno def. Alex Metreveli (4-6 6-3 6-1 2-6 6-3)

    Final
    Andres Gimeno def. Patrick Proisy (4-6 6-3 6-1 6-1)


    Andres Gimeno is the 1972 French Open Champion.
     
    Last edited: May 5, 2012
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  6. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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  7. woodrow1029

    woodrow1029 Hall of Fame

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    It's weird, because the draw I found starts with the Round of 128, and the matches that were in the "Round of 256" are not recorded in the ATP Head to Head results. I wonder if that was some kind of feed-in round that was not technically part of the main draw of the tournament. Kind of like Qualies today. But, qualies today are listed in the H2H under Qualies, Challengers and Futures results. So, I don't know.
     
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  8. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    indeed, it doesn't appear on the ATP online database but, as mustard said, it would not be the 1st time it's incomplete (or even wrong !). ;)

    i also thought about it being a qualification round, but then rejected this hypothesis as some seeds had to play it...
     
    #8
  9. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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  10. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Yes, there were students riots in Paris in May 1968, also i think a railroad strike. Many players arrived too late or couldn't arrive at all.
     
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  11. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Interesting to see the 72 French Open results laid out like that. Panatta beat Nastase early on and Harold Solomon beat both Connors and Vilas. I think Solomon beat Vilas in 1976 and maybe in 80 too. And of course, some of the biggest names in the sport were missing in 72 due to one dispute or another. Just one of many Grand Slam events similarly affected back then.
     
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  12. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes, the WCT didn't sign up for their players to play in the 1972 French Open, so the ILTF responded by banning the WCT players from 1972 Wimbledon, which prevented the 1970 and 1971 Wimbledon champion, John Newcombe, from defending his title in 1972. It also prevented Rosewall having another go at winning the title that had eluded him.
     
    #12
  13. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    In 1980, Solomon beated Vilas, but Vilas was sick. In that year, Vilas won Rome and beated Borg in Dusseldorf. If he wasn't sick, I think he would have beaten easily Solomon.
     
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  14. Xavier G

    Xavier G Semi-Pro

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    Maybe.
    Vilas had been in good form, but Solomon was playing well that year too.
     
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