NorCal USTA Problems

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Joeyg, Nov 16, 2006.

  1. Joeyg

    Joeyg Semi-Pro

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    I know that there are many board contributors that play league tennis in NorCal. I am interested in your opinions about the recent scandal in the Men's 4.0 Nationals. I know and play with several of these guys at Clubsport Fremont.

    Given the amount of sandbagging and recruiting that goes on at the 4.0 level by certain captains, none of what has transpired is shocking. I think it was just a matter of time before this whole situation blew up! I doubt seriously that the USTA has the guts to do anything about this, but time will tell.

    I personally have been asked by captains to try and get my rating down to 4.0. What a joke! I have played league since 1999 and have always been around the top of the 4.5's. I know several 4.5's whose stated desire is to get their rating down at any means and go to Nationals at the 4.0 level. I find this type of behaviour to be reprehensible.

    I want everyone to know who this is coming from. My name is Joe Grech. I coach at Chabot College in Hayward. I play at Clubsport almost every day and can be reached at 510-651-8653 or by emailing me at joegrech@sbcglobal.net.


    Once again, I would like the players in NorCal to sound off about this and any other gripe you have with the USTA and or captains, etc.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2006
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  2. eunjam

    eunjam Rookie

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    i am not part of norcal, but i just want to say kudos.....and thank you for YOUR integrity!!

    may karma and or any type of higher power bless you.

    unfortunately though, this whole sandbagging thing has existed for a long long long time. it wasn't the first and won't be the last.

    the USTA is run just like any tyranny or corporate culture.

    there are rights outside of the organization, but inside, it's don't ask, don't tell. and if you do make a ruckus, you will be ostracized.

    but i do hope something does happen.

    it will be great that the netizens of TW has made a huge impact.
     
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  3. Dr. Van Nostrand

    Dr. Van Nostrand New User

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    If USTA Norcal did do anything to discipline the team or individual players would it get much, if any publicity. They can't change the past but they could certainly suspend as many of the team as they like from USTA league or tournament play for I would think as long as they like. It would seem that a 5 or even 10 year suspension would be warranted if all the idiotic things that these guys have been accused of is true.
    I would like to get to play in the national championships some day but it would never be that important to cheat to the extent that this team appears to have done. They make Barry Bonds look like the pinnicale of ethics, morality and fair play.
     
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  4. cak

    cak Professional

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    Considering what members of that team did last year on their 4.5 team, without NorCal doing anything, I'm convinced NorCal has no intention of doing anything about that team this year either. I believe National will have to step in and discipline them.

    NorCal does post what players are disciplined and for how long on their website. They no longer post why.
     
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  5. dtmmfam

    dtmmfam New User

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    fremont team? I thought it was bakesto that went to 4.0 nationals. Anyway, it's true that a lot of the players on the team are under rated. I know one guy on the team that tried playing 4.5 but his win/loss ratio was very low. However, his win/loss ratio on the 4.0 was 100%. So does that make him a 4.0 or a 4.5?
     
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  6. cak

    cak Professional

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    The overlap between the Backesto Park 4.0 team and the Clubsport Fremont 4.0 team from 2004 that went to Nationals is quite significant. I had heard Clubsport Fremont would not support that team, and that is why they moved to Backesto Park. I have also heard folks on the NorCal board calling for an investigation of sandbagging for the 2005 Backesto Park team where the players were purposely throwing games to get their ratings back down. That team did not finish the season, and the investigation never took place, as NorCal decided not to send the complaint on to National. The players did get bumped down by the computer, and showed up on that team and in Hawaii.

    I don't think those players are 4.0 or 4.5s. Either rating would imply they are USTA tennis players. I don't think they belong in USTA.
     
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  7. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    Clubsport Fremont has a significant reputation for sandbagging at all levels. Unfortunately, until Norcal is willing/able to send verifiers to matches this will continue.

    On my 3.0 team this year we had two players disqualified by the computer. While I don't believe these players had self-rated inappropriately, I was fairly impressed with the computer system's ability to pick off the best players on our team and didn't have any major complaints. That is, until we played at Sectionals...

    At our section championships, the team from Copper River had a self-rated singles player that was not only not a 3.0, he probably wasn't a 3.5 either. The first team that played Copper River filed a grievance at the tournament. It was denied. The second team that played them filed a grievance. It was denied. Rumours were going around that the leadership at Norcal wanted to field a strong team at nationals and were, accordingly, turning a blind eye to the issue. We played Copper River last, and this player beat one of our best 6-2, 6-1, looked bored in the process, and likely threw a game or two to make it that close. We didn't file a grievance since we ended up winning the day, but this guy was far better than either of the players we had disqualified and the selective enforcement was extremelly frustrating. It was especially frustrating since this was at Sectionals where there are USTA officials present to watch matches.

    I'm not too worried about the computer system, since players with computer ratings will eventually get moved - even if it is a season later than we'd all like. USTA league tennis is for fun and I can handle getting whipped now and then. But trying to judge self-rated players by computer is an impossibility. When a team files a grievance against a self-rated player, USTA must send a verifier to watch that player - especially if more than one team accuses the same player. They can bill the team filing the grievance to cut down on nuisance claims if necessary.
     
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  8. Rafa's best friend

    Rafa's best friend Banned

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    I also do agree that self-rating system is not working. And i also agree that we have local USTA officials that are corrupt and biased, and this is a problem in differnt regions as well, for example Chicago area. In chicago area, we have practically same 1-2 teams that win the district or region every single year due to the fact that the players that win 90-100% of their matches and sometimes dominate their opponents who are computer rated 4.0 level, do not get bumped up at the end of the season. We have teams in 2 different disctricts that virtually win every single season, Hannover and Oak brook. And they virtually field same players every season and they will win practically 99-100% of their matches with even blowouts against players that are computer rated to be 4.0. But every year they stay at 4.0 and not get bumped up. I have asked this question before, and the answer was they have not yet gone to the nationals and won the championships. And i have seen and played against these two teams, and about 50% of their players belong in 4.5 level.( i speak from playing experience at USTA 4.0 level for 11 years). The main problem with corruption such as this is that it turns off potential USTA interested team player from joining and keeps the USTA team tennis from growing furthur in that disctict. We need to clean up the act at local level first then and only then we can fix the problems in the nationals...
     
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  9. dtmmfam

    dtmmfam New User

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    the bottom line is that people will go to great lengths to win at any cost. There are a lot of people that are more interested in winning than having fun. I played an 8.5 combo league match last week and the #1 doubles players almost got into a fight. It just stopped being fun and in the end, no one shook hands. There's very little that the USTA can do to stop the corruption. You'd have to change the way people are.
     
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  10. Joeyg

    Joeyg Semi-Pro

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    I would love to hear from NorCal members with their opinions about the USTA's handling of this situation. I am very aware of the Backesto Park team's problems in NorCal on all of the levels, 4.0,4.5,5.0 and have played with or against most of the guys and consider some of them to be friends of mine.

    I think that if the allegations are true, perhaps a lifetime ban for the player or players who tried to play as someone else is appropriate, and 1 year bans for others that were involved.

    I want as many opinions as possible as I am going to forward a copy of this thread to both USTA NorCal and National. I do not think we should let this transgression go unpunished. Enough is enough!
     
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  11. benh2023

    benh2023 New User

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    Let's wait and see what happens......

    I was a member of the NorCAL men's 3.5 team that went to the Nationals and was fortunate enough to win there....I am also familiar with some of the Backesto players and I have spent some time practicing there, as I live in San Jose. At this point in time there is much speculation about what consequences may be forthcoming given the serious allegations that may (or may not) have occurred at the 4.0 Nationals. I would suggest we allow the USTA to finish their investigation (and yes, there is an investigation of this matter under way) and then see if the punishment fits the crime. Personally, I've played in NorCal league tennis for at least 15 years on a variety of teams in different districts and at different levels, and I've never heard of something as strange as this situation going on before!!! It's important not to paint all of NorCal with a broad brush...because there are hundreds of really good, solid, competitive players that continue to play by the rules...and enjoy the game for what it is.....just tennis.......I, for one, will be very interested to see what sanctions may be forthcoming out if this if the allegations are indeed proved. Ben from NorCal.
     
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  12. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Could someone please explain in a little more detail exactly what happened at the Men's 4.0 Nationals? What "strange" things are you guys referring to and what "crime(s)" were committted? Thanks.
     
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  13. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Last edited: Nov 18, 2006
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  14. max8176

    max8176 Rookie

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    Hi all,

    I am a 4.0 team captain in San Francisco and this past season was my second year as a team captain but I have been playing league for a few year now. My first year team was "middle in the pack" and last season my team lost in the first round local playoff. I also captained a 7.5M last summer that advanced to Sectionals.

    A couple of weeks ago, one of my current players on my 7.5 combo team who is a captain at Clubsport FR told me that Backesto 4.0 team had cheated at Nationals. I was extrememly surprised because even though I do not know anyone on that team I have heard that they really have a strong team. Some of my other combo team players were actually on another East Bay team and played them in the Sectionals confirmed that. I am even more surprised that they actually cheated by using someone not on the roster. I guess these people really have gut but just use it in a wrong way!!

    I am surprised that USTA has not done anything so far yet as I can see some of the players from this cheating team is already playing on other league teams (combo, mixed, etc.). After all, it's Norcal we are talking about!! All they know is how to make money out of the rating system.

    Ben, I believe two of my friends are also on your team. You said your 3.5 team won the Nationals, right?
     
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  15. chess9

    chess9 Hall of Fame

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    Cheating occurs everywhere in sports, business, churches, government (ahem). No one should be surprised that nothing is being done about this little corner of CHEATDOM.

    Figure these larger cheats going unpunished:

    1. Human growth hormone cannot be detected unless it's used shortly before testing;
    2. Ditto for insulin use;
    3. Ditto for most steroid use unless an expensive test is used to look for exogenous steroids.
    4. The amatuer ranks are loaded with drug cheats. (I could be on hGh and steroids and amphetamines and god knows what else and no one would find out unless I snuffed it.)
    5. Tax cheating is widespread in this country.
    6. People cheat every day on their sick days at work, costing employers millions of dollars each day.
    7. Politicians lie almost every day to their constituents, mostly by what they DON'T say about what they've done.
    8. CEOs lie on their balance sheets so their stock option compensation goes up, their share values rise, or for other reasons. This is a wide-spread practice.
    9. Ministers are schtupping their congregations by stealing money and by having sex with parishioners.

    So, a little nibbling at the edges by some over-eager tennis players doesn't seem so bad, eh?

    Frankly, I think USTA has done the tennis playing community a huge disservice by implementing rated play and rated team play (which is an order of magnitude worse than rated play). I'd scrap the entire system and start all over again. We need a system that encourages people to IMPROVE and PLAY. We don't need a system that encourages lieing and cheating and is, at heart, a con game.

    Just my humble opinion. I'm sure I'm wrong. No tennis balls have been harmed during the production of this Sermon from the Mount of Platitudes.

    :)

    -Robert
     
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  16. benh2023

    benh2023 New User

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    Hi Max!

    Yep, I had a few guys on my team from foggy SF!!!!! In fact, the day we played the local play-offs against Pleasanton was probably one of the hottest days of the year!!!! Roger, Jeff, and Conrad were wilting....poor guys!!!!! They're used to hitting around in South City in the fog and drizzle...!!! Good luck with your combo team. That national team was really special....Rog and I have been playing together for a number of years as well as some of the guys on that team....7 different nationalities!!! A bunch of interesting languages!!! There was a very special bond between all of the players on that team....of course, practicing together for three-four days per week since April...and making it through all the play-offs.....that created a very unique team....and our captain (captain Hank) is pretty legendary in NorCal for being super organized.....and he had a standing rule...no practice...no play!!!!!! So, I guess after working so hard to get to the Nationals legitimately...a lot of guys will be pretty bummed out if the investigation bears out that NorCal really did cheat.....but, it's being investigated as we speak by the USTA....so I'll withhold judgement until all the facts are in. Ben.
     
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  17. max8176

    max8176 Rookie

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    Yeah, I have been playing with Rog and Jeff for a number of years now and we have been in the same team together before. Jeff is in my combo team right now and we are doing very well. I am glad that the latest rating does not affect combo. Sure, I think every time a team advance beyond district is very special. I am happy for Rog and Jeff as well as Hank cause he has worked very hard for the National title. I really hope that Norcal will do something about the cheating incident because Norcal has really given me a negative image in dealing with situation like this over the years. It seem that they only care about making money and looking out for themselves rather than caring for their players.
     
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  18. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    Update on NorCal Situation

    I posted this same information on the Cheating at Nationals thread, but wanted to post it here too, so more people know about it. The tournament director's name was Dave Schobel, and I talked to him a couple of weeks ago. He told me that it will take months to resolve, but here is what they are looking at now. 1: a lifetime ban from USTA for the whole team; 2: picture ID required at virtually all USTA events from now on; and 3: a wild card entry back into nationals next year for Southern.

    What I can't understand is why the delay. In our league, if a player is disqualified, then any wins that he has become losses. If that were the case at nationals, then NorCal would have lost the flight to Southern. But for some reason, NorCal was allowed to take the court on Sunday. The only thing I can assume is that USTA has never caught anyone doing this before, and wasn't sure how to handle it. Also, since it was the weekend, I guess they couldnt just call the home office and get a decision.
     
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  19. Dr. Van Nostrand

    Dr. Van Nostrand New User

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    Months to resolve? What the heck are they waiting for? A lifetime ban for the whole team is probably not fair since I doubt every team member was involved and/or aware of the cheating. Even if a team member was aware of what was going on they could not necesarily have prevented the captain was cheating.
     
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  20. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    I respectfully disagree Dr. Even though the whole team may not have thought of the idea, or even approved of it, they all knew it was happening and chose not to report it to the officials. In that regard, they were all participating in the scam, and should be held accountable. I think that lifetime ban for all of them is too harsh a punishment, but would be happy with 10 years. However, maybe I am just lenient. What do others think?
     
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  21. grimmbomb21

    grimmbomb21 Professional

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    double post. sorry.
     
    Last edited: Nov 24, 2006
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  22. grimmbomb21

    grimmbomb21 Professional

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    LOL! Are you kidding?? You think your best player was a 3.0?? No way. I watched their match. Yes, our man did look bored when he played, he's a laid back guy. But don't come here and try to tell these guys that your player was a legit 3.0. I thought that they were both hitting some shots that a 3.0 wouldn't make.

    Also, each of the other teams we beat that weekend had at least one guy that was not a 3.0! Our two best doubles players ended up getting moved up at the end of the season, along with our number one singles.

    BTW, you can thank those two doubles players for leaving early and not playing Sunday. Had we not forfeited their match, we would have moved on and won Nationals.

    ;)
     
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  23. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    You'll get no argument from me - and that's part of the problem. Our guy, who really does have a better game than a 3.0, was blown away by another "3.0". If our guy didn't belong at 3.0, then yours probably didn't belong at 3.5. Either way, the USTA officials were on hand to make ratings corrections and they couldn't be bothered with it.

    Anyway, it's too bad you defaulted the third line - we had put our strongest doubles line in that spot.
     
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  24. grimmbomb21

    grimmbomb21 Professional

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    BTW, how did you guys do at nationals? And what was it like? Were there a lot of people there?
     
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  25. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    We took 4th at nationals. We played well in the round-robin portion, beating two of the three teams we played, to make the semi-finals. We then came up against the Puerto Rican team. Right from the first serve of the first match it was clear that we had no chance. They were definitely a solid group of 3.5s! It was a lot of fun, there were a lot of really good players, and I have no need to do it again.
     
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  26. Eviscerator

    Eviscerator Banned

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    I also do agree that self-rating system is not working.

    IT DEPENDS ON THE PLAYER AND CAPTAIN AS TO WHETHER IT WORKS OR NOT. That said, it can be abused easier than the old system of having to get rated. I think those days are gone because the new system is making them more money.



    In chicago area, we have practically same 1-2 teams that win the district or region every single year due to the fact that the players that win 90-100% of their matches and sometimes dominate their opponents who are computer rated 4.0 level, do not get bumped up at the end of the season. We have teams in 2 different disctricts that virtually win every single season, Hannover and Oak brook. And they virtually field same players every season and they will win practically 99-100% of their matches with even blowouts against players that are computer rated to be 4.0. But every year they stay at 4.0 and not get bumped up. I have asked this question before, and the answer was they have not yet gone to the nationals and won the championships.

    This will sound like I am defending the system, when in reality I am trying to give some perspective. Lets assume that your % figures are correct. Those same players might be going to the regionals and getting clocked by players on a team that then goes to the sectionals, and those players in turn get clocked. In theory, all the ratings trickle down from the nationals. Additionally keep in mind that while player X is rated "4.0", there is a scale some people are not aware of. For instance, one player might be a 3.6 level player and lose badly to a 3.9 level player. The score indicates a blow out by one 4.0 vs. another 4.0, but in reality that is probably close to the way the score should turn out. So the 3.6 player is barely above the 3.5 level where as the other player is close to the top of the 4.0 level.
    Also some players get their rating from playing tournaments yet the competition in the leagues can be much weaker or stronger depending on the region. For instance I have a student who is at the top of the 4.5 level in tourneys. He plays with a few local league players who are 4.0. He loses more than 50% of the time against them and wonders why. Down here in S Florida, the better players who participate in the NTRP play the leagues while up in Central Florida the better players play NTRP tourneys.


    When you go on to talk about corruption and the like, keep in mind that the computer generated ratings are fairly standardized. So unless someone is going into the tennislink system and altering the stats, players with a computer generated rating should be close to where they are listed NTRP wise. It is the self rated players that tend to cause the most problems since they have not been vetted by the computer. The dynamic NTRP system seems to be helping to a degree, but it will never be able to catch all the players who wish to cheat the system.
     
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  27. Rafa's best friend

    Rafa's best friend Banned

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    You are obviously not reading everything i written. People do get bumped up but they appeal and they get granted what they want, it is corrupted in Chicago area. Normally i would not care about this kind of idiot corruptness but this is turning off many would be USTA players from joining the 4.0 league. so the number of teams in chicago area is shrinking. Where as in previous region, the league is growing so fast there has tobe 3 division in one city, a much smaller city. And as soon as i moved up here, i can see the corruptness of the level immediately. And it is ignorant people like you that allow the corruption as well. How are we ever going to fix the system with people like you around ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????:sad:
     
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  28. Eviscerator

    Eviscerator Banned

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    You are personally insulting/attacking me, but I cannot imagine why:confused:

    I am trying to help give you a different perspective and possibly educate you on the system as I am familiar with it. You are therefore either way too emotional about the subject, very immature, or a combination of the two. Try not to lash out at some trying to help frame the systems +'s and -'s and give you a different perspective.
     
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  29. Rafa's best friend

    Rafa's best friend Banned

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    OK, if i insulted you i truly Apologize, but the Corruption in Chicago area is so bad, i take the subject matter passionately. I moved from a city where USTA system was fair and very few sandbaggers exist and USTA league was growing and live with energy and people couldn't wait to start up a new team and so on. What is going on Chicago is truly sad in a great city like this..........................:sad:
     
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  30. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    OK, so any system can be abused if someone really makes up their mind.

    Under the verification system, a player could lie on his profile sheet, tank in front of the verifier, and get a rating of whatever he wanted.

    Under the self-rating system, a player can lie on the questions the computer asks, and get whatever rating he wants.

    Under the computer rating system, a player can intentionally lose matches in one year so that he keeps the rating for next year.

    I play tennis for fun, exercise, weight control, etc., and no cheater can stop me from that.
     
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  31. gokou703

    gokou703 Rookie

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    I'd like to comment on the 4.0 sandbagging going on in Norcal leagues. btw Joe Grech (Joeyg) was my tennis coach at Chabot College. It's not surprising to me what happened in the 4.0 national championships. I play Norcal 4.0 league and can say that there are a lot of legitimate strong 4.0 players, but there are also a good amount of players who are at the least strong 4.5 players. I don't really have a problem with players that do have a computer 4.0 ranking and have just recently improved their game to a 4.5 level. It bugs me to know that I just played a former division 2 player, or an international player who's definitely playing a level or two lower than they should. A captain once self rated me at 3.5 and when I commented that I would probably get in trouble if I played at 3.5 he asked me throw a match!(I quit that team btw) For me that was just disgusting, and totally went against my efforts to actually improve my game and become the best tennis player I could be.
    So I think there is a fine line of what is acceptable and what is not. I personally believe in playing at a level until you know that you can consistently beat the field. It is at that point though when you should go up a level. That's why I'm for computer ranked players dominating for a short while then going up. When it comes down to it, if you’ve already dominated at that level or any level higher or equivalent, do everyone else a favor and play at your respective level.
     
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  32. alwaysatnet

    alwaysatnet Semi-Pro

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    I played a few years ago on a 4.0 team from Napa that went to nationals and it was taken for granted that you had to have several players that might be bumped up in order to get in the playoffs to begin with. The line of deliniation between a strong 4.0 and a 4.5 when you get to the national level isn't very clear at all.Of course there are always the sandbaggers. Like the poor, we will always have them among us. The only way to catch one, and they are almost always the singles players, is when one sandbagger has to play another one. Then, there is no way to sandbag under those circumstances.Scrutiny at the regional level is the only way to weed out the cheaters.
     
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  33. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    Enjoyed reading this thread. We have the same sandbagging issues in the Southeast and I'm sure every region has them. Its statistically amazing how in a "level skill" league, the same teams make the playoffs almost every season, even when they have to replace bumped players. Captains of those teams have told me it is actually a pretty simple equation. When someone gets bumped you go out looking for unrated players. Say you are a 4.0 team. Then the trick is find 4.5 (or even better, weak 5.0) players who are rusty from a layoff. Most of us are very modest when it comes to self-rating our own abilities, so rusty 4.5s truly believe they are really 4.0s (or even 3.5s). And they may be right at the beginning of their return to tennis. As they knock the rust off and get match time under their belts they usually return to their true level. If the tennis gods are smiling on them, this tends to coincide with city and regional playoffs.

    Is it cheating? Technically no under the current self-rating rules. Is it breaking the spirit of sportsmanship and fair play implied in a skill level league? Absolutely. But as many of you have said, rule bending like this goes on in every sport. Folks that only care about winning can rationalize away a lot of bad sportsmanship and dishonesty.

    Since I play on a private club team that doesn't allow guest players, we don't have the luxury of replacing teammates who get bumped with ringers. So we know we may occasionally get to the playoffs, but will never advance far. So unless I want to go and try to make the cut and join a team built for winning, USTA League play will always be a nice way to get some matches in, meet interesting folks and hang out with good friends.

    -k-
     
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  34. goober

    goober Legend

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    Interesting comments coming from a captain of a USTA team who took a 19 year old player ranked nationally at 279 in the 18s and had him self rate at 4.0. Sure you just play for fun.
     
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  35. BigJEFF

    BigJEFF New User

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    wow Pot calling Kettle Black

    I don't want to make this personal but how many of these rules did you break with John. In my Opinion you should be thankful for Nor Cal because personally I don't think your much better.
     
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  36. BigJEFF

    BigJEFF New User

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    truth hurts Coach

     
    #36
  37. gokou703

    gokou703 Rookie

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    #37
  38. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    Another Correction

     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2006
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  39. goober

    goober Legend

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    Final USTA BOYS 18 rankings NATIONAL 2004:

    http://tournaments.usta.com/tournaments/rankings/rankinglists.aspx?id=93326

    It turns out he is 298, which really isn't that far from 279

    If you limit to only Texas section: choose texas under drop down menu.


    Interesting that there are only 18 players that have higher rankings than him in the Texas section. Why would a group of 30-40 year old adults bring in a 19 year old ringer and have him self rate?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2006
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  40. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    First, 19 is the minimum age for USTA leagues. We have had several that age in the past, and hope to have several more in the future. It's a good way to transition from junior tennis to adult tennis in my opinion.

    Second, a self-rating is required for all players without a computer rating. Actually, this is a computer rating since the computer assigns a rating after you answer a series of questions. The player answered all of them honestly, and was assigned a 4.0.

    Third, the other players on our team range in age from 22 to 50.:)
     
    #40
  41. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    According to the "General & Experienced Player Guidelines Supplement to the NTRP Guidelines":

    Former Juniors who had national (foreign or domestic) rankings but did not tour or play in college: under 35 (4.5), 36 & over (4.0).


    It doesn't say what the National ranking should be, only that if they have one! I can't really keep up with this thread, but it appears that both of you claim he had a National ranking. But you disagree to what that ranking was. But according to this, it doesn't matter!
     
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  42. goober

    goober Legend

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    I very well know what the age requirements are and I know about self rating. Throwing your hands up and saying that that's what the computer gave him it is out of our hands is pretty weak as an excuse. I can pretty much give myself any ranking I want depending on how I answer the questions. Funny how I got 4.0 self rating and I never had any junior/college or competitive experience otherwise. You weren't even following the self rate guidelines in any case. 5.5 rating if you are top 150 nationally with no college and 4.5 if you had any national junior ranking at all with no college. I highly doubt he answered the questions honestly. In fact I would say it is impossible to answer the questions honestly with his background and come up with that rating.

    At any point when he was trying out for your team did you honestly think he was a legitimate 4.0 player?
     
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  43. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    OK, we have established that the same John Arvesen that played on Texas' national championship 4.0 USTA league team is the same person that was ranked #298 nationally in the USTA Boy's 18 & Under category in 2004.

    Given that, and I know that this has been brought up before, but the USTA self rating guidelines are pretty clear:

    "NAIA, Division 2 & 3 unranked college team player - program with no scholarships (not much stronger than high school tennis); junior college player; former juniors that had national (foreign or domestic) rankings but did not tour or play in college; Age 35 & Under = 4.5, Age 36 & Over = 4.0."

    http://dps.usta.com/usta_master/usta/doc/content/doc_13_7372.pdf?12/6/2004 4:12:22 PM

    That guideline right there shows in black and white that he should have been self rated at 4.5 - end of story and argument!!!

    If the USTA program spit him out as a 4.0 after submitting the evaluation form, either pertinant information was missing from the form (ie, the ranking was not mentioned) or the USTA program was not following it's own published guidelines. Furthermore, the Texas team captain says that he specifically went to the section league coordinator about this player and he/she approved of his play at 4.0. If this is the case, that coordinator needs to be disciplined for not following the guidelines (along with all of the other USTA officials that allowed this continue).

    Aside from the ranking, the fact that Arvesen was also a two-time Texas 4A state high school doubles finalist also shows that he was not a 4.0 level player.

    If this kid was not self rated, I would not necessarily have half the problem with his eligibility. Despite his national junior ranking and stellar high school results, if he had taken a long break from tennis, came back to the game, played some tournaments, and was legitimately spit out as a computer rated 4.0, that would be acceptable. (That describes me by the way.) However, Arvesen was only one year removed from his junior play and there is no way he can self rate at the level he did in good conscience (that's why the USTA guidelines specify an age range)... and I find it hard to believe any team captain would go along with this and then continue to argue legitimacy or plead ignorance as justification.

    Self rated players that become stars at sectionals or nationals really leave a bad taste in my mouth. Once they reach that point, they are rarely (if ever) disqualified, no matter how outrageously over level they are. Others have posted that Arvesen wasn't even the best player at the nationals. Atul Shah from PNW (with possible college or professional experience in India that the USTA could not verify) and Hector Hernandez from the Middle States section (who had a World Junior ITF ranking of 1320 in 2004) were supposed to be even more over level than Arvesen, and they were both self rated also... which is total BS.

    In my opinion, if the USTA wants to root this out, they should make a rule that no self rated player is allowed to play in district, sectional, or national playoffs. That's tough on new players, but they would still get to play during the season... but it would root out these cases of one season self rated ringers coming in and helping a team win a (illegitimate) national title. (If you reverse Arvesen's and Hernandez's results, Texas wouldn't have won the title and Middle States wouldn't have gotten 4th place.)
     
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  44. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    Yes, I did. The first night I met him, he beat me 6-3. If you look at my record, you will see many sets lost by that score or worse by guys who are still 4.0. Then he and another player beat me and another player (both singles guys) in doubles 6-4. In league, he lost a set to a player I beat easily, then beat another guy badly that I also beat badly. At sectionals, all of his matches were pretty close except for one deliberate sacrifice. He was losing his final match 7-4 in the tiebreaker, but managed to pull it out.
     
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  45. Joeyg

    Joeyg Semi-Pro

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    Crocodile Rock: Sorry, but in my opinion you were way out of line. Try and justify it all that you want. The kid was under-rated and you were aware of it. The USTA is also at fault for not DQ'ing him as soon as they saw him hit a ball. The win at all costs mentality is just completely against the spirit of the game.

    For you to claim ignorance is just ridiculous! League tennis at the elite level has become a game of who can cheat the best. The USTA wil no longer get my $18.00.
     
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  46. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    In the match with Marc Dominguez (the guy you beat 6-2, 6-1), Arvesen lost the first set 7-6, but came back and won the second 6-0. What was the tiebreaker score? It sounds to me like he was just being lazy and turned it on when he needed to. As for the player you both beat badly... I guess it just proves that guy was a poor player that you could both drub on.

    If he was just putting out half effort (maybe trying to avoid a strike even?), then he could certainly give up a few games to keep the scores "close". (That's what Atul Shah did in the PNW sectional playoffs by the way.) The fact is, Arvesen won all his matches in straight sets up until the final. The guy he beat in the sectional final, James Sinard, was 12-1 on the year going into that match... and it looks like he is also a self rated ringer. So your ringer beat their ringer... what a joke!

    Justify this all you want, and enjoy your nice shiny plate... but understand that if you didn't have Arvesen (which you shouldn't have if the USTA followed their own guidelines), your team wouldn't have even made it to the nationals, let alone win the title.
     
    #46
  47. BigJEFF

    BigJEFF New User

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    what color is the Sky in your world

    Hey Croc, I don't think you get it. Yes you beat us 4-1 but we lost our hottest and at the time best doubles team going into nationals who were both computer rated players. If I have them I don't have to split up my other doubles team to play singles (gore) who was sick and had to play singles but went undefeated in dubs after that match. What hacks me off is we lost players at our sectional, we were told this is an assurance that at Nationals we will all be on the same playing field well someone did'nt tell your section that I guess. One more note the only person on our team that is still responding to this thread is me I am not sure who the other guys our but they are right your boy was ranked and he should and was suppossed to be a 4.5 STOP DEFENDING IT.. What really hacked me off was you coming down on Nor Cal and sounding like you play by the rules. Got news for you YOU DON'T. MY ADVICE to you is just tell the people in your Hometown and your little club and family that you won A National Tourny but don't come on this Board and pat yourself on the back and talk about people being mis informed.. CROC I am very proud of our Team we worked extremely hard to get to Nationals. Especially with all computer rated players. WE didnt have one self rated player or one Nationally Ranked JR. we play by the Rules that why when people ask how we did I tell them we beat all the 4.0 teams we played. and you take the 2 cheaters that played in the finals out we were top 5. You tell your side I tell mine..... Big Jeff 4.0 2006 Mythical National Champs.....
     
    #47
  48. dpfrazier

    dpfrazier Rookie

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    What's amazing is that our small private NorCal club (only 6 courts) sent both 3.0 and 3.5 women's teams to Nationals this year. No outside players on either roster...
     
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  49. Raf Tsew

    Raf Tsew Guest

    Hey Guys! The other thread about cheating is "dead" so I wander around and find this thread.

    Sorry to read that you guys are still *****ing about TX over and over. I thought this thread is only for Norcal where there are some problems?

    If you are still pissed off, I understand. But life has to go on, men.

    Have you ever pissed into a canyon from a cliff? There are a few canyons around here and it's an experience. Never there is an echo of what you are doing. Once in a while, a strange whirlwind would bring back the waste. Doesn't this sound like the USTA?

    BigJeff, as a Captain, you were discouraged by the TD in HI. File a grievance against him. Make him answer for his actions. Regulations 2.0x allow for a TD to take action including a DQ before a grievance committee decision.

    If all of you are still bitter about TX, nothing you can do now as the rules required you to file in time. However, there is an option that you may want to explore. File a grievance against the TX Captain and the TX League Coordinator with the National Sportsmanship Grievance committee. The USTA will initially try to discourage you. But what have you got to lose? They may send you a Chrysler to keep your mouths shut.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2006
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  50. Raf Tsew

    Raf Tsew Guest

    :D

    I am not good a this.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 8, 2006
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