NOT a GOAT thread, but Fed is better than Sampras

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by Fedfan34, Apr 16, 2012.

  1. monfed

    monfed Guest

    So you use 1 match as a sample size(when Federer hadn't even entered his clay prime btw) to prove that's how Federer would play against a clay court specialist? Laughable double standards.

    Interestingly enough Federer beat Kuerten in Hamburg, bagelling him no less.

    Sampras didn't even play Kuerten on clay(who btw is one of the greatest clay courters ever) so how you call him his competition on clay is puzzling , and Kuerten is not JUST another clay court specialist like Pablo Andujar say.
     
  2. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Your analysis fails again. Sampras retained his #1 ranking because he had the most accumulated points. He had the most accumulated points in large part because there was no multi-major winner in 1998, and that is due to the incredible depth of championship level competition at that time.
     
  3. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I use that match as an exemplar to demonstrate how awkward Federer looked, and how ineffective his game was on clay against a great clay court player, even though Kuerten was past his peak and hobbled by a bad hip, and Federer was #1 in the world and in his prime.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  4. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    so how did federer beat rafa, who quite clearly is a better CC player than kuerten , twice on clay, one with a bagel, nothing less and take him to the brink at Rome in 2006 ( had match points ) ?????

    the 2004 match vs kuerten was a one-off. Kuerten was playing very well, federer was not.
     
  5. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    So sampras lost in 98 at the FO to delgado because delgado was a supreme player on clay ? He lost to Kucera in 98 at the AO because Kucera was a supreme player on rebound ace ??

    these guys made the 90s a tough era ????? reaaaaaaaalllllly ???? :lol:

    there was no multi-major winner in 98 because the field was weaker . Korda won the AO, moya the FO and rafter the USO , sampras wimbledon ...neither of the other 3 are that great players ....

    anyways point is djoker won more major tournaments, had a better winning % in 2008 than sampras in 98, yet he ended up #3, because there were 2 other guys who were even better - nadal and federer ......
     
  6. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    What a stunningly uninformed post. Only one who knows nothing about clay court tennis would say that Nadal is "quite clearly" a better clay court player than Kuerten. At their respective peaks, I'm not sure who would be the better clay court player. I can only say that Nadal has been the healthier clay court player.

    Further, the 2004 match was an example of how a genuinely great clay court player, although past his peak and hobbled by a degenerative hip, dominated a peak Federer who was #1 in the World and who lost only one match in a major tournament that year, on clay, to the disabled Gustavo Kuerten.
     
  7. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Hahaha! You are left with nothing but strawmen and subterfuge. You've been out manuvered by one who has played more tennis, seen more tennis, and who understands tennis more than you. If you have a substantive argument to proffer, I'll respond then. Otherwise, do TT a favor and don't waste their bandwidth.
     
  8. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    LOL, Sampras wasn't dominating not because of a stronger field, but instead he was losing to a lot of players well outside of the top 10 !

    Even when he won W, none of the players he beat were in the top 10. And beating Goran in the final who Mac called him a "mental midget".
     
  9. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    jeez, what a stunningly uninformed representation of Kuerten and comparision vs nadal .....

    highest level of CC tennis - nadal vs kuerten are very close .... But difference is nadal can/could maintain that high level of CC tennis day in day out. Kuerten could not.

    See for example, how he was a point away from losing to Russel in 2001 FO, yet went on to beat ferrero and corretja with ease .....

    even leaving aside the health part, nadal is a better player because he's able to maintain a high level of CC tennis day in day out compared to Kuerten

    its still a one-off. How do you explain federer's wins vs rafa then ?? how would you explain him beating djoker at last year's RG ? ( remember djoker beat rafa twice in a row in straights on clay before that )

    2004, again, federer was still adjusting to the centre court at RG then. Kuerten played very well and won. Its still a one-off .....

    So since Peter doohan beat Becker convincingly at wimbledon in 87, we hail Peter Doohan to be the grass court GOAT now on the basis of that one match ?????
     
  10. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    Not sure if trolling or just stupid. Lets go for a brisk stroll down memory lane:

    1998 Australian Open:
    Samps loses to the oh so memorable Karol Kucera in the quarters. The great Petr Korda ends up winning this tournament.

    1998 French Open: Sampras loses to the incredible Delgado in the second round. Moya ends up winning the championship. (Roger is 4-0 against Moya, including two wins on clay)

    1998 Wimbledon: Samps beats the Croatian headcase Ivanisevic, famous for his inability to do anything else besides serve, in the finals. It takes him five sets, no less.

    1998 US Open: Rafter beats Samps and then goes on to win the title.

    I see only one good player here beating Pete in slams, Mr. Rafter, and Rafter was by no means a complete player.
     
  11. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    You realise that was not long after Kuerten's first hip surgery, yes? Kuerten had the surgery in February 2002 after a disastrous run going back to September 2001 where he had lost 11 out of 12 matches. This run saw Hewitt overtake Kuerten for the year-end number 1 ranking for 2001. When Kuerten returned after that hip surgery, he was bagelled by Gaudio in Mallorca and breadsticked by Montanes in Rome, before Federer bagelled him in Hamburg.

    Such ignorance on display. To quote Goran, "I must be a genius to get to 4 Wimbledon finals with just my serve".
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  12. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    lulz, so mentioning the great players in Kucera and Delgado who beat sampras in majors in 98 in an argument involving sampras' 98 year is a waste of bandwidth, it is strawman ????? fact is you are clueless about what happened in 98 .....

    someone just happened to mention to you that 90s had more depth than 2000s , and you keep on parroting that , without knowing the facts .....
     
  13. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    1998 was a weak year. For Rios who reached #1 without winning a slam is a testament of an opportunist. In today's era a player has to be a multi-slam winners in order to be #1. And that started since 2004. For Rios, he would just be another good player in this era, but the 1998 pave his way to #1 because no player step up !
     
  14. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Why do you treat Kucera like he was a dud? He was very dangerous, like his coach, Mecir, was as a player. Kucera twice beat Agassi in majors, at the 1998 US Open and 2000 French Open.
     
  15. monfed

    monfed Guest

    You keep parading about your "Federer was peak in 2004" argument but the fact is -

    a) Federer wasn't peak in 2004. Prime? Sure.

    b) Federer hadn't even entered his clay prime in 2004.


    Furthermore, the 2004 RG is a match against a hip-busted Kuerten(as if the notion of a pro competing in a major with a busted hip isn't absurd enough) is purely a one-off. Federer has shown his competence on clay by thrashing Kuerten in Hamburg(bagel included) in 2002 which was pre-prime Federer btw, beating Ralph on two occassions(one with a bagel) on clay ,almost beating him in Rome DESPITE being a nightmare matchup.

    Without Nadal, Federer would be sitting on 5-6 RG titles.
     
  16. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    This notion that Kuerten was among Pete's "competition" at the French Open is ridiculous. Its only competition if you ever play them. Sampras never played Kuerten at the French because he was busy losing to people like Delgado. So as far as I'm concerned, Sampras's clay court "competition" was: Courier, Schaller, Kafelnikov, Norman, Delgado and Agassi.

    Federer by contrast has Kuerten, Nadal, Nadal, Nadal, Nadal, Soderling, Nadal, and Nadal as his competition. Fed's competition trounces Pete's. And Fed himself would trounce all of the players Pete lost to.
     
  17. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    When Rios was number 1, much of his 1997 results counted. When Rios first got to number 1, for example, he was the reigning champion of Miami, Indian Wells and Monte Carlo, was runner-up at the Australian Open, quarter finalist at the US Open and an R16 loser at the French Open and had been runner-up of Rome.
     
  18. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Why are people talking about Sampras's 1998? Everyone knows it was a terrible year, a bit like Federer's 2009 where he only won his slams because Nadal wasn't playing them.
     
  19. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I'm not the parrot, you are. My opinions are based on personal knowledge, not what others have said. I'm the one who argues that the true depth of any era is measured by the depth of championship level players - those with a champions heart and mentality. Unlike you, I've been playing and watching tennis for many, many era's. I don't need to read what someone who was there wrote about it. I lived through it and observed it for myself.

    Further, the fact is, if you think that Del Potro, Soderling and Nalbandian are great clay court players, you are clueless about tennis. You are another Dan Lobb. You read a book and think you know something. You don't.
     
  20. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    Comparison of stats between Federer and Sampras:

    Titles -

    Major titles:
    Federer 16 Sampras 14

    YEC titles:
    Federer 6 Sampras 5

    Masters 1000 titles:
    Federer 19 Sampras 11

    Total titles:
    Federer 73 Sampras 64

    Match wins -

    Major match win%
    Federer 232-35 (86.89) Sampras 203-38 (84.23)

    Australian Open match win%
    Federer 63-9 (87.5) Sampras 45-9 (83.3)

    French Open match win%
    Federer 49-12 (80.3) Sampras 24-13 (64.9)

    Wimbledon match win%
    Sampras 63-7 (90.0) Federer 59-7 (89.3)

    US Open match win%
    Federer 61-7 (89.7) Sampras 71-9 (88.8)

    YEC match win%
    Federer 39-7 (84.8) Sampras 35-14 (71%)

    Masters 1000 match win%
    Federer 253-76 (76.9) Sampras 190-70 (73.08)

    Hardcourt win%
    Federer 515-104 (83.2) Sampras 427-104 (80.41)

    Claycourt win%
    Federer 163-51 (76.2) Sampras 90-54 (62.5)

    Grasscourt win%
    Federer 102-15 (87.2) Sampras 101-20 (83.5)

    Carpet win%
    Sampras 144-44 (76.6) Federer 50-19 (72.5)

    Indoor win%
    Federer 217-52 (80.7) Sampras 213-61 (77.7)

    Outdoor win%
    Federer 613-137 (81.7) Sampras 549-161 (77.3)

    Total match win%
    Federer 830-189 (81.5) Sampras 762-222 (77.4)
    Pressure situations-

    Tiebreaks
    Federer 314-161 (66.1) Sampras 274-156 (63.7)

    Finals
    Sampras 64-24 (72.7) Federer 73-30 (70.9)

    Versus top 10
    Federer 150-74 (67.0) Sampras 124-71 (63.6)

    Deciding set
    Sampras 188-88 (68.1) Federer 147-84 (63.6)

    Points/Games -

    1st serve points won %
    Sampras 81 Federer 77

    2nd serve points won %
    Federer 57 Sampras 53

    Service games held %
    Sampras 89 Federer 88

    Break points saved %
    Sampras 68 Federer 67

    1st serve return points won %
    Federer 33 Sampras 29

    2nd serve return points won %
    Federer 51 Sampras 51

    Return games won %
    Federer 27 Sampras 24

    Break points converted %
    Federer 42 Sampras 41
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  21. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    really ???? Mecir was a far better player and far more dangerous ......Kucera was a decent player, but that's about it. his best result at a major was a SF and a lone one at that .....
     
  22. monfed

    monfed Guest

    A win is a win(your own slogan). Your double standards are nauseating.

    Anyway, I don't buy the injury excuse because he was completely fit during the match and was comprehensively beaten. That's that.
     
  23. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I haven't seen a post asserting that Kuerten was among Sampras' competition. Please scroll up and read my comments on Kuerten vs. Federer at the French Open.
     
  24. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    Ah yes, my ignorance is countered by your own brilliance. Quoting a player's opinion of himself is always a great way to ascertain how good he was.

    Goran and Karlovic are two players that just have serves. And Karlovic's is bigger. Fed beat Karlovic at Wimbledon in 2009 in straight sets. Goran would suffer a similar fate.
     
  25. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    LOL. Now you're comparing Goran to Karlovic :)
     
  26. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    I know, that must be so taboo for the Petetards that believe the 90s was a golden era of men's tennis (LOL). But I'm a rebel, I'll take 'em all :twisted:
     
  27. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I said he was a dangerous player. When on form, he was like Mecir, although he was on form less often than Mecir was in his career. But, when Kucera beat Sampras and Agassi in majors, he played excellent tennis.
     
  28. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Goran could do everything better than Karlovic, even serving. Come on now, stop all this nonsense of comparing Goran to Karlovic.
     
  29. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Let's know what all you know about kucera, delgado - who beat sampras in majors in 98 and then we'll talk ....

    I was referring to peak level of CC play of those 3 players btw , not that they are great on account of their accomplishments on clay

    Soderling already has accomplished something that puts him in the league of very good CC players - beating both federer and nadal at RG and reaching 2 RG finals ..his level of play in those 2 RGs was absolutely phenomenal . but then you wouldn't know since you didn't watch .....

    delpo still has time on his side, but he was playing phenomenal tennis in RG 2009 .....but then again, you wouldn't know as you didn't watch .....

    I say true depth of era is measured by the level of play of the players ..... Whether or not a player is championship material is not that easily decided. was thomas johansson really championship material ? was gaudio ? quite a few slamless players are more worthy of winning slams - rios, nalbandian ,murray , mecir , davydenko etc .....

    still waiting for reply on post 110 btw :)

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6469744&postcount=110
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  30. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    What is this? There's no place for FACTS on in a conversation with Petetards. It was CLEARLY just Fed being in a weaker era. Weaker era. Weaker era. Era weaker. rekaew are.

    The famed Sampras second serve actually won him fewer points than Roger's. Can't wait to here what the tards have to say about that.
     
  31. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I will leave all of the green pea puking, eyeball spinning *******s with this final thought. I assert that Sampras would have won fewer majors in the 2000's than he did in the 1990's. The reason for that is because todays slower homoginized courts would tend to neutralize Pete's power game.

    On the other hand, I also submit that Federer would have won fewer majors in the 1990's than he did in the 2000's, not so much because of the faster surfaces, but, because of the better, more specialized players. With players like Becker, Edberg, Stich, Sampras, Krajicek and Rafter in the field at Wimbledon, Federer is going to lose before he gets to the finals more often, and lose more finals when he gets there.

    Further, with players like Kuerten, Courier, Agassi, Bruguera, Muster, Kafelnikov, Moya, and numerous other clay court specialists, Federer would not make any finals at the French Open, much less win one.
     
  32. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Not double standards. Federer beat Kuerten fair and square at 2002 Hamburg. I'm explaining that Kuerten had recently had hip surgery, not saying that Federer wasn't worthy of the victory.
     
  33. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Doesn't Karlovic have better serve statistics than Ivanisevic?
     
  34. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    I agree that Goran is a far greater player than Karlovic, but disagree that he was a better server than Ivo. Ivo statistically holds his serve more efficiently than anyone else in the open era and does so with one of the weakest groundgames to have ever been in the top 100.
     
  35. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    More red herrings, strawmen and subterfuge. They, and the rest of your post, are inapposite to the discussion.
     
  36. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yes, but then YE #1 is a separate stat, right ?

    federer's 2008 was actually a better year in terms of points than sampras' 98. yet sampras was #1, federer #2 ( hence federer didn't get to 6 years in a row at #1 , but Sampras did )
     
  37. treblings

    treblings Hall of Fame

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    excellent post
     
  38. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    Fact time. Lets compare serve statistics:

    Ivanisevic:

    10,183 Aces
    3,572 Double Faults
    55% 1st Serve
    82% 1st Serve Points Won
    50% 2nd Serve Points Won
    3,900 Break Points Faced
    66% Break Points Saved
    9,244 Service Games Played
    86% Service Games Won
    68% Service Points Won

    Karlovic:
    7,017Aces
    1,110Double Faults
    65%1st Serve
    82%1st Serve Points Won
    52%2nd Serve Points Won
    1,489Break Points Faced
    70%Break Points Saved
    5,071Service Games Played
    91%Service Games Won
    72%Service Points Won

    The only stat Goran leads on is Aces and he more than negated than advantage with double faults.
     
  39. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Has Karlovic served 1,477 aces in a calendar year like Goran did in 1996? Goran served more aces than any other player on tour in 1992, 1994, 1996, 1997, 1998 and 2001.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  40. Fedfan34

    Fedfan34 Rookie

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    So why are you bringing up the surgery if not to discredit the victory?
     
  41. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    WOW! Very informative post! Now I am BIG fan of both, so I'll just stay quiet on this one. :)
     
  42. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    stitch and krajicek, very inconsistent/injured .....rafter was only a factor at Wimbledon in 2000/01, edberg only till 93

    you fail .........

    Moya ?????? federer ranked in the 100s beat him as a young kid. He's undefeated vs him on all surfaces , including clay ....

    Courier, bruguera, muster , Kuerten all peaked at different times and had short peaks ..... Muster was a no show at RG for most part. In fact he went past the QF at RG only once in the 90s, in 95 when he won ......All of these guys would be competitive vs fed no doubt, but only during their primes and fed's CC prime is wayyyyyyy longer than the CC prime of any of these players ....

    fed would handle Agassi, kafelnikov at RG ......

    he wouldn't make a FO final ???????? ha ha ha ha ha ha
     
  43. sunny_cali

    sunny_cali Semi-Pro

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    Except that Fed beat Moya in straights at the FO. Agassi ? 8-3. (but of course, you'll claim agassi was old and all that)

    Kafelnikov - straight setted him on clay.

    Federer would have fewer total slams, but without Rafa, he could have actually won more than the 1 FO he did in this era.
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  44. monfed

    monfed Guest

    Sure but your insinuation to discredit his victory didn't go unnoticed.
     
  45. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Just pointing out a fact, that's all. Kuerten was longer prime Kuerten, but Federer got the victory and deservedly so.

    In 1990 as well, when Muster lost to Gomez in the semi finals.
     
  46. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    It's weird having Limpinihitter regurgitate my arguments, makes you wonder how many of his posts are just him regurgitating stuff he read elsewhere?
     
  47. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    how on earth are they not relevant. This is a thread involving federer and sampras. Hence discussion on the players they faced .... How on earth is it irrelevant ?

    Too ashamed to even reply to the posts on the playing level of soderling, delpo etc. in the FOs because you didn't watch ? :)

    I also mentioned about the depth of an era in that and how it is not easy to say who is championship material or not, but you have no counter-arguments ? Hence running away by saying my post is not relevant ???

    Well your choice :)
     
  48. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    A couple problems with this justification.
    The first is that it's basing the quality of their serve over their entire careers on one year.
    The second is that Goran could rack up more aces bc he played more matches over the course of a year than Ivo ever could since Ivo typically lost earlier in tournaments due to his lack of any weapon other than his serve. A better measure of aces to assess the quality of their serve is to see how many aces/serve they hit over the course of their career.

    Goran: 10183/59512 = 0.171 aces per serve (1st and 2nd serves included)
    Ivo: 7017/31167 = 0.225 aces per serve (1st and 2nd serves included)
     
    Last edited: Apr 17, 2012
  49. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

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    Yeah but Goran played against better players because he was higher ranked. It's all very well for Karlovic to knock 20 aces a set by the world number 180 in the first round, he doesn't hit that many by people like Murray and Federer.
     
  50. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    yeah, I meant to say after 1990 actually .....
     

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