Nothing against ferrer but...

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by timnz, Jul 3, 2012.

  1. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,543
    His easy movement through the draw pretty much sumarizes everything that is wrong with wimbledon right now. I mean what is a clay courter doing to win matches so easily like he did against del potro. The courts are far far too slow and the balls far far too heavy.

    As i say he seems to be great guy, but fast court players need a slam they can shine in too. All but gone.....
     
    #1
  2. roundiesee

    roundiesee Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,861
    I thought Roddick had him for a while, and I think had set points for a 2 sets to love lead, but eventually blew it, poor Andy :(
     
    #2
  3. nereis

    nereis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Messages:
    545
    You must be trolling.

    If you saw that match you would've seen some of the best attacking tennis in the tournament.
     
    #3
  4. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    4,092
    people like this don't even watch the tennis, tey just bring their preconceptions to the argument.



    Todd Woodbridge in commentary was making particular note of how Ferrer has adjusted his game for grass (complete with slo mo examples). as for slow courts, the guy hit 34 clean winners!
     
    #4
  5. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,669
    Look forward to Cincinnati in august.
     
    #5
  6. brickner_damage

    brickner_damage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    I don't see the problem with Ferrer winning grass matches from the baseline. Federer is winning grass matches from the baseline too..
     
    #6
  7. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    4,789
    Ferrer isn't actually a clay courter at all. His best results have all been on hardcourts.

    Sampras has a better record on clay than Ferrer. 3 French Open QF's, a semi final, and he won Rome.

    Ferrer's 5'9'' and his game is built around his big forehand so medium bouncing courts are perfect for him, the ball bounces right in his wheelhouse every time.
     
    #7
  8. brickner_damage

    brickner_damage Banned

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2011
    Messages:
    386
    Well said, very interesting points.
     
    #8
  9. BrooklynNY

    BrooklynNY Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2010
    Messages:
    1,627
    I don't think Ferrer is a clay court specialist. He just has better movement on clay than say someone like Murray, and is way more consistent than a lot of people ranked slightly below him.

    I kind of think of Ferrer as just what some people would call the 'modern baseliner' Similar to the sense that Nole is a 'modern baseliner' if that were a real term, although Djoker is just simply better at almost everything Ferrer does.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2012
    #9
  10. mcenroefan

    mcenroefan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,527
    Ferrer is a dedicated player.

    Still, your points are fodder for the arguments concerning "weak era" and homogenized surfaces.
     
    #10
  11. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,466
    Oh really? How many times did Ferrer serve and volley and/or return and charge during the match? :???:
     
    #11
  12. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,971
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    that is the old definition of attacking, because in the old days was either going to the net (attacking) or stay at the baseline and push the ball back, now days players can actually attack you from the baseline, for instance hitting and angled topspin shot to open the court to then hit a flat shot to the other side, that is attacking.
     
    #12
  13. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,466
    Nah....that's not attacking tennis. To "attack" someone, you have to move forward closer to where they are.
     
    #13
  14. cknobman

    cknobman Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2007
    Messages:
    6,100
    Location:
    Saudi Arabia
    Ferrer is an awesome all around tennis player and is certainly not a clay court specialist.

    OP you know jack squat about Ferrer and give the impression you know even less about tennis.

    Ferrer won a grass court tournament a freakin week ago! Hes also made it deep in the Australian and US Open tournaments.
     
    #14
  15. 90's Clay

    90's Clay Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2012
    Messages:
    7,330
    Nole and Fed's draws have barely been "tough" either.. They have reached this far and who do they got? Mayer and Youzhny?? Ughhh
     
    #15
  16. OriginalHockeytowner

    OriginalHockeytowner Rookie

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2011
    Messages:
    188
    Location:
    Michigan
    Or use artillery, in the form of punishing groundstrokes from the baseline! :)
     
    #16
  17. Winner_DownTheLine

    Winner_DownTheLine Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2005
    Messages:
    451
    Location:
    Cincinnati
    leave the blue collar player alone!
     
    #17
  18. nereis

    nereis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Messages:
    545
    Ferrer won 17 of 19 net approaches in a three set match.

    For comparison:

    Federer won 34 of 39 in a four set match.

    Tsonga won 21 of 29 in a four set match.

    Djokovic won 17 of 20 in a three set match.

    Murray won 11 of 15 in a three set match.

    Mayer won 25 of 36 in a four set match.

    Kohlschreiber won 17 of 21 in a three set match.

    Youzhny won 40 of 54 in a five set match.

    For the above players through to the next round we have the following average number of net approaches per set to control (imperfectly mind you given the length of each set is not the same, but this will do for an apples to apples comparison). (2 decimal places)

    Ferrer - 6.33

    Federer - 9.75

    Tsonga - 7.25

    Djokovic - 6.67

    Murray - 5.00

    Mayer - 9.00

    Kohlschreiber - 7.00

    Youzhny - 10.8

    Now for the success rate at net (%)

    Ferrer - 89

    Federer - 87

    Tsonga - 72

    Djokovic - 85

    Murray - 73

    Mayer - 69

    Kohlschreiber - 81

    Youzhny - 74

    We can observe that Ferrer's game has been directly comparable to his peers in terms of aggression. In fact, he is more aggressive than Murray has been if we go by your definition of forays into the net and is in the same ballpark as Djokovic and Tsonga when we extend a 95% CI (assuming a t-distribution). Moreover, he has the highest success rate when he does go to the net.

    Those numbers are even better when we apply the usual definition these days (given the ability to hit winners from the ground) of the ratio of forced points versus unforced errors by the opponent.
     
    #18
  19. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2008
    Messages:
    6,896
    LOL @ people saying that he's not a clay courter

    Clay Court Masters: 2 finals, 4 semi-finals
    Hard court Masters: 1 final, 2 semi-finals

    8 clay titles to 5 HC titles.

    Seriously, people?

    Saying that his best results are on HC is a myth that nobody ever bothers to check.
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2012
    #19
  20. DownTheLine

    DownTheLine Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 15, 2009
    Messages:
    2,406
    No.

    10char
     
    #20
  21. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,007
    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    Once upon a time, there was a young man named Bjorn.....
     
    #21
  22. Bobby Jr

    Bobby Jr Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2010
    Messages:
    7,412
    I don't know why people are so upset the conditions allowed Ferrer, a supposed clay courter/grinder, to win. It's not like the guy he beat is renown as an all-courter or for being adaptable to varying conditions. If Ferrer is a grinder then Del Potro surely was the epitome of a one trick pony in this match?

    Ferrer turned up with a game-plan for playing Del Potro, executed it almost perfectly and made his strengths work for him. You can't say the same for Del Potro.
     
    #22
  23. Boomgoesthedynamite

    Boomgoesthedynamite New User

    Joined:
    May 29, 2011
    Messages:
    51
    accurate observation!
     
    #23
  24. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    30,374
    Location:
    Somewhere over the rainbow
    You mean as in "bump them hard during a changeover". That kind of attacking tennis has almost died down ... can't remember seeing it in a looooong time.
     
    #24
  25. Orion3

    Orion3 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jul 4, 2011
    Messages:
    463
    He's a modern day Chang.
     
    #25
  26. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    920
    borg didnt win wimby playin his claycourt game. brought the pain with lotsa s&v. one reason y his channel slams way more impressive than nadz's.

    that said, this thread is stupid. ferrer is a hardcourt grinder/counterpuncher. they've been winnin at wimby for a decade - see hewitt

    courts r too slow but they haven't suddenly got this way n allowed ferrer to get to qfs. been this way for years
     
    #26
  27. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2011
    Messages:
    4,092
    so slow the grinder hit 34 clean winners including 17 from 19 trips to the net...
     
    #27
  28. Defcon

    Defcon Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,708
    Wow, people are totally missing the point, which is not Ferrer, but the courts that are so slow these days. It's been that way for a long time now, and allows defensive players to compete at Wimbledon which is a total joke.
     
    #28
  29. TeflonTom

    TeflonTom Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    920
    dood even i could hit 34 winners against del floptro on grass
     
    #29
  30. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2007
    Messages:
    4,408
    :lol:

    That's a pretty good one.
     
    #30
  31. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2008
    Messages:
    4,543
    Thanks for the discussion

    Finding out some interesting things through this thread.
     
    #31
  32. BeHappy

    BeHappy Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2007
    Messages:
    4,789
    Sampras has 3 QF's and a semi at RG, Robredo has two QF's and a semi at RG. Sampras ahead by one QF there.

    Sampras won a claycourt masters (Rome). Ferrer didn't.

    Sampras faced a claycourt field of Courier, Brugera, Muster,Agassi, Chang, Kafelnikov, Berasatugai etc when he got all those results I posted.

    Ferrer faced a field of Federer and Nadal, Robredo and Almagro (both have worse records than Sampras on clay too).

    Sampras was in a different league. And he wasn't a claycourt specialist, what does that make Ferrer, Robredo and Almagro?
     
    #32
  33. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,466
    Yes, because when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor, the entire Japanese Navy stayed back in Tokyo Bay.
     
    #33
  34. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2008
    Messages:
    11,518
    Exactly what I said in the match thread. Del Potro just couldn't hit through the court and Ferrer was reaching balls that he'd have no chance of getting to had the surface been low-bouncing.
     
    #34
  35. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    Grass has been Del Potro's worst surface since he came on tour, even on todays half grass if you will (and no dont anyone say something retarded like it is even slower and higher bouncing than clay or Australian hard courts). So based on this evidence why on earth would more faster and true grass help him. More likely he would struggle even worse than he does on the current grass, which plays closer to a hard court than old grass would and helps him. He is very tall and not particularly athletic or nimble even at his peak, I cant imagine how he would be handling extremely low and skidding balls coming at him. Yeah they would help some of his shots skid through more, but he still has to get to the balls and get in position to hit them too.

    Would those conditions help him vs the rare opponent like Ferrer? Perhaps. However under faster and truer grass conditions he probably wouldnt have even survived someone like Robin Haase who he eked past in 5 sets in the first round, a more natural grass court player.
     
    #35
  36. NadalAgassi

    NadalAgassi Guest

    True, it is a weak era with 3 great players, 1 very good one, a few decent but clearly not potential slam winning caliber ones, and a bunch of no hopers mostly after that.

    That and the homogenized surfaces is why we see the same group of players dominating, and whichever plays happens to be playing the best that year always dominating year round (eg- Nadal in 2008 and 2010, Djokovic 2011, Federer 2004-2007). There is no such thing as surface specialists now as the playing conditions dont even encourage players to try for that, the rewards arent even there anymore.
     
    #36
  37. nereis

    nereis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 14, 2008
    Messages:
    545
    To extend your analogy, if China/Russia/America/France/Britain wanted to attack anywhere in the world right now and wipe it off the face of the earth they would be sending ICBMs with nuclear warheads launched from submarines hiding under the Arctic ice.

    If they wanted to use conventional weapons they would be launching ballistic missiles, cruise missiles, ASM and guided bombs from the safety of their carrier strike group.

    Come now, I hope you're trolling because clearly, if the Japanese had been capable of launching the same assault from the safety of their bases they would have.

    Let's move onto a more apt analogy and stay on topic for what constitutes 'attacking tennis' in this day and age.
     
    #37
  38. beast of mallorca

    beast of mallorca Legend

    Joined:
    May 19, 2010
    Messages:
    7,770
    You will have to pardon Breakpoint, he's old and stupid......case in point ^^
     
    #38
  39. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 27, 2005
    Messages:
    7,879
    Op hasn't been watching - Ferrer adapted to the grass and took the ball earlier and the grass helped Ferrer hit through the court and blast a load of winners v Delpo.
     
    #39
  40. Nadalfan89

    Nadalfan89 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    2,307
    Ignore BreakPoint. The guy has almost 34000 posts on an online message board.
     
    #40
  41. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,466
    Yes, because I have so much knowledge to share. :)

    Oh, and you don't "attack" from the baseline. You "bash" from the baseline and hope to win the point through a error or a winner. You didn't "attack" your opponent. You just made him miss his shot.
     
    #41
  42. Nadalfan89

    Nadalfan89 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    2,307
    So when Ferrer is running back and forth across the baseline barely getting his racquet on the ball while Nadal blasts corners without having to move...that's not attacking?
     
    #42
  43. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,466
    No, it's not. That's baseline bashing. Now if Nadal served and volleyed on every point, THAT would be "attacking" tennis. :)
     
    #43
  44. Nadalfan89

    Nadalfan89 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2009
    Messages:
    2,307
    That would be called "losing" tennis.
     
    #44
  45. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,361
    Ferrer is an agressive baseliner in the mode of Agassi and Davydenko. They take the ball early near or inside the baseline and hit it hard to force errors or hit winners. Ferrer is not an attacking player to me because an attacking player is looking for ways to get to the net.

    I think the basic premise of this thread is valid. Courts, balls, rackets and strings give the power baseliner and the retriever baseliner too big an advantage and things need to be shifted back toward the faster courts to give the shot makers more of a chance.

    Coming to net should be a bigger part of the game. There is too much baseline play in today's game. The contrast in styles is fun to watch when you have a baseline and attacking player.

    To me "attacking" means coming in to the net as in "he attacked the net".
     
    #45
  46. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,466
    Maybe for Nadal, but not for "attacking" players like Sampras, Becker, Fish, Ivanisevic, Rafter, Edberg, McEnroe, etc.
     
    #46
  47. darrinbaker00

    darrinbaker00 Professional

    Joined:
    May 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,007
    Location:
    Berkeley, CA
    "So much knowledge to share" being a euphemism for "too much free time and no friends," of course. ;)
     
    #47
  48. Russeljones

    Russeljones G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    12,394
    OP is partially correct. On Queens or Halle grass Murray would have won in 3 easy sets.
     
    #48
  49. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,971
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    So when you attack the net how exactly are you expecting to win the point? ... isn't it with either error or a winner? Or there is other way to win a point in tennis?
     
    #49
  50. Service Ace

    Service Ace Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2007
    Messages:
    992
    Location:
    Los Angeles
    So now you're arguing semantics?

    Pathetic.
     
    #50

Share This Page