Novak 2.0 vs Rafa

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by tenniselbow1, Jun 18, 2011.

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Would Rafa have defeated Novak in the FO final?

  1. Yes

    27 vote(s)
    42.2%
  2. No

    37 vote(s)
    57.8%
  1. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    Early May 2009: Novak 21 years old, Rafa 22
    Nadal's H2H with Novak = 14-4

    Since his 22nd birthday (Late May of 2009) Novak has gone 7-2 with him. H2H = 16-11 now.

    Rafa prior to his 22nd birthday: Just 3 FO titles.

    Novak prior to his 22nd birthday: 1 AO .

    Summary... Novak in his pre-prime and prime years (after turning 22) has been a better player than Rafa. With two 3 or more match win streaks in the period. Rafa's GS win at the US Open is highly misleading in that Novak had for 1. Not reached his current state which happened late last year. He's clearly physically stronger, we do not have to even bring up the mental part. 2. The main topic of conversation during that Federer/Novak semifinal was how Federer was going to be fit to play Rafa if he won, I would think the same would apply with Novak. He was not physically 100%.

    Lastly, i'm predicting (bar no injuries) this 4 match consecutive streak will reach 12-3/13-3/13-4 type numbers. Basically were going to see Novak utterly dominate Rafa in his prime. This is how they match up in my opinion.
     
  2. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    I think it would have gone 4 or 5 with Rafa winning, the form Rafa brought to the final would have edged him out. (but not easily)
     
  3. TheNatural

    TheNatural Legend

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    Both Federer and Djokovic need to get fitter.

    Im predicting Nadal's 5-0 slam record v Joker will continue increasing.
     
  4. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    Did you watch Rome and Madrid? Novak's is physically imposing himself on Rafa, this is Rafa's issue. He's beating him at his own game. I actually think Clay court tennis, where Rafa can't get as much penetration by stepping into the court and taking the ball early (only solutions he will have against Novak) is the worst possible surface for him. Rafa's best chances are on grass and a fast hard court against Novak, where if he plays well has a chance. Otherwise I see things looking extremely grim. With Roger, we all know what Rafa has to do to win there, he does it so well he still apologizes for it:)
     
  5. Clay lover

    Clay lover Hall of Fame

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    People have to remember that Novak 2.0 dominated just about everyone and Rafa was already one of the guys putting up the most fight.

    So, in my opinion, either Novak keeps it up and beats everyone, or his level drops and he starts losing to Nadal again. It is not a match-up issue, the outcome is totally determined by Novak's form.
     
  6. Sentinel

    Sentinel Talk Tennis Guru

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    If Noel keeps his form for the first half, he will dominate Nasal. And yes, he would have beaten Nasal at the FO 2011, but we'll never know for sure.
    Nasal's best < Noel's best (as seen in several meetings)

    Roger's best > Noel's best (as seen in FO 2011)
     
  7. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    The 7-2 figures is very misleading:

    Look at the breakdown:

    Nadal was better than Djokovic in the first half of 2009:

    He beats him 4 time.

    Nadal sucked after his injury in the second half of 2009

    Djokovic beats him 3 times in that period.

    Nadal was better than Djokovic last year

    He beats him 2 times

    Djokovic was better than Nadal in the first half of this year:

    He beats him 4 times.


    Regarding Roland garros:

    Djokovic had beaten Federer 3 times this year, but could not do it at Roland Garros. So nobody can say that it's because he had beaten Nadal 4 times before that he would have won Roland Garros. Federer showed that he was very beatable and that it's more Nadala nd him who ****ed up than the contrary.
     
  8. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    In what meetings? This year Nadal did not play his best tennis. I would say that Nadal best >>>> Djokovic best.

    Djokovic was soundly outplayed by Nadal in the USO final even on fast hardcourt.
     
  9. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Yup, Novak exposed Rafa and his weak competition. If it weren't for the match-up issue against Roger and pretty boy Fabio, Novak would have spanked Rafa in 3-4 sets.
     
  10. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nadal reached 7 finals in a row this year(amazing feat,2006 Fed like)which clearly tells us that yes he is playing better than he ever did by some margin.

    That was when Novak was still developing his game.Whether Nadal can beat peak Novak at USO is still a big question mark,maybe we'll find out this year.
     
  11. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    Developping what? Djokovic played great at the USO but got outplayed by superior player.

    Nadal played good in IW and Miami but choked against Djokovic. Still he was very close to beating him and was far from his USO level.

    In the clay events Nadal just sucked after Barcelona. Madrid he played very bad and almost lost to Federer. Rome was even worst as qualified Lorenzi almost beat him.

    Djokovic did not even play that well. Ferrer gave him an hard match, Murray served for the match and choked with DF's, Bellucci was teaching him tennis. It's just Nadal really who sucked.

    Djokovic was unbeated but far from being invincible.

    Federer lost to Djokovic at AO, Dubai an IW, following your reasonning he should have been crushed by Djokovic at Roland Garros, but he was not. He found his level back and eliminated Djokovic.
     
  12. Magnus

    Magnus Legend

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    That or that its a weaker field than in 2006, something *******s will never admit.
     
  13. TennisFan3

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    [​IMG]
     
  14. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    No,Djokovic at USO last year didn't play anywhere nears as good as he did this year,especially at 2011 AO.

    He didn't choke,peak Novak just flat outplayed him.


    Nadal played some of his best CC tennis ever at Madrid and Rome but once again had no answers against peak Novak.

    For around half a year yes peak Novak was invincible as evidenced by the fact that he hasn't lost a single match.
     
  15. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well they can't have their cake and eat it to too,something they seem to try time and again.
     
  16. bolo

    bolo G.O.A.T.

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    I agree with heracles, novak played great in the final at last years open. Nadal just got the better of him, especially with his serve which bailed nadal out in moments when novak was threatening to come back.
     
  17. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    - Djokovic last year at the USO played as well as he did this year, if not better.

    - Nadal choked, Djokovic did not outplay him. The two match followed a similar patterd, Nadal dominated him, won the first set, then his level and his serve dropped. Anyway, close 3 setters against the best Djokovic on hardcourts was not a bad result.

    - Nadal played his worst clay court tennis ever at Madrid and Roma. In fact the only time I have seen him playing worst on clay was Roland Garros 2009 and Roma 2008. But he was so bad it did not even look like it was Nadal.


    Overall Djokovic was far from being unbeatable. He did not lose because Nadal and Federer were in a slump, because Murray choked and that he was stronger mentally than the other who troubled him because of his confidence.
     
  18. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    No,he played far worse at USO last year.Almost lost to his lapdog Troicki,was down MPs against old men Fed(who was himself playing crappy tennis),contrast to AO this year where he just flat out dominated.

    Wrong,peak Novak had a slow start in both IW and Miami but once he found his game peak Nadal was toast.

    No,Nadal was playing his best CC tennis ever this year,the game is always evolving and Nadal improved as well to keep up.

    Actually not losing a match for half a year is quite the opposite,it's very close to being unbeatable.
     
  19. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  20. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    He did not play worse.

    That's wrong again. Nadal serve dropped to 25% after the first set in IW and I would not call going to the tie break of the third in Miami being toast after the first set.

    Nadal was completely awful in Madrid and Roma and in the beginning of Roland Garros. The game is not improving. Nadal played a much worse clay season than he ever had.

    No it's not close to being unbeatable. It's just being unbeaten. Novak was outplayed at time but somehow survived. As soon as he ran into a hot player, Federer at RG, he lost.
     
  21. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Nah that is wrong. Novak was in a slump and choked that match away.
     
  22. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    He didn't play worse,he played far worse.

    IW:Nadal 1st serve dropped because of the pressure Novak was putting with his ROS.

    Miami: Details,once peak Novak found his game after the 1st set he won the next two.

    On the contrary,Nadal was amazing in Madrid and Rome,2011 version of Nadal(ie the peak version)would beat any other version of Nadal easily.

    Yes,it is.
     
  23. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Pretty boy Fabio trolled Novak's rhytm.
     
  24. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    He played well, as good as he was this year.

    This is non sense. In IW Nadal was dominating and his serve suddenly dropped to 20% , probably his worst stat ever.

    In Miami Novak needed the tie break to win.


    Now I know that you are trolling. Nadal 2011 version would have lost to all other previous Nadal in the clay season.
     
  25. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    Really? Funny, we thought you were the troll when you claimed that Djokovic played as good OR BETTER :)lol:) in the USO final than he has in 2011.
     
  26. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    No,he played far better this year,their levels are not even comparable.

    Novak's return of serve and fighting spirit put an amazing amount pressure on the server.Against a lesser opponent Nadal would have served lights out.

    Yes,he played far from his best but found a way to win anyway,he found his 2011 AO form in Madrid and Rome again.

    Nah,it's the other way around,evolution of the game.
     
  27. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    LOL. 2011 djoker >>> djoker in 2010 USO finals. Nadal would've been lucky to get a set vs 2011 djoker on a fast HC , well maybe if djoker had a slow start like he did at Miami/IW , otherwise no
     
  28. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    They are perfectly comparable. Nadal was just so much better at the USO 2010 compared to now.

    Novak return did not put anything to explain Nadal very low percentage. Navak was gifted the right to play second ball at every point and that's why he won.

    In Madrid Djokovic was outplayed by Bellucci and troubled by Ferrer. In Roma Murray served for the match and choked with DF's. But he beat Nadal easily because Nadal was very bad, worst than Murray, Bellucci and Ferrer in these tournaments.

    As soon as Djokovic met an top player playing well, he lost or was close to losing (Federer RG, Nadal miami, Murray Roma)
     
  29. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Trolling aside I'm not sure I agree,I think Novak was slowly finding his 2007-2008 form in USO last year after that stinker against Troicki but he wasn't hitting the spots as well with his serve yet,his serve seems to have finally returned to its best level at 2010 DC and has stayed with him as a weapon since.

    In 2010 USO Nadal was playing far above his average level on fast HC,it could have very well been a five setter if 2011 Novak played 2010 Nadal at USO although I'd probably pick Novak in 4(the serve can make a huge difference).
     
  30. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    well, two of the greatest differences were his serve and his confidence/mental strength.

    He played good tennis in USO 2010, but again like you said, his serve still needed quite a bit of work. He was also less offensive than he should've been IMO . I'd pick Novak in 4 too if he played at his 2011 level
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  31. Sid_Vicious

    Sid_Vicious G.O.A.T.

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    That is because Novak is a fighter and was able to fend of personal family problems and still beat top players. Novak was below his AO 2011 level during the clay season because his brother Marko broke his arm. What really ended Novak's incredible streak was his broken heart when his dad got up and left in the middle of his match against Federer. The emotional pain caused him to lose that match and with it RG '11.
     
  32. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    We agree about the serve but as for being more offensive while I agree that Novak should have tried to force the issue more from the baseline in their 2010 USO final thing is even this year Novak wasn't as aggressive from the baseline as he was in 2007/2008 in general but specifically in his encounters with Nadal as well.

    It's mostly his old serve,improved defense,ROS,fitness and mental concentration on court that brought Novak so much success this year.In his 4 wins against Nadal this year he was mostly beating Nadal in his own game rather than trying to blow him off court like he did in some of their earlier encounters.
     
    Last edited: Jun 19, 2011
  33. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    agreed, trying to beat nadal at his own game worked for nole this year on slower courts. But he'd probably be better off trying to revert back to more aggressive play on the faster courts
     
  34. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    Anyone who says 2010 Novak = 2011 Novak should be discredited, openly berated, and banned from posting for a month and only allowed to come back after proving he/she is on medication. I've never heard of anything so ridiculously stupid. What desperation and fear for one's favorite player can cause is amazing.
     
  35. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    Deemed as sane.
     
  36. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    Completely agree. Rafa's best chance against Novak2.0 is on a super fast court. Faster the better for Rafa against Novak at the moment.
     
  37. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    Anyone who say that 2010 Djokovic is the same than 2010 USO Djokovic should be immediately banned.

    Djokovic was average for most of 2010 but played great in USO and Davis Cup. This is not even debatable.
     
  38. tenniselbow1

    tenniselbow1 Rookie

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    You sir are an unfortunate contribution to this thread. I'll just go ahead an say what most people think. Better yet I'll open a thread and poll this question to show you how ignorant your sounding, if you don't keep quiet.
     
  39. Heracles

    Heracles Banned

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    You are so weak minded that I will deal without any difficulty with you and the other anti Nadal trolls as usual.
     
  40. jones101

    jones101 Hall of Fame

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    Current Nadal resorted to lobs/moonballs while Djoker was on the baseline to try and get through him, on clay no less, so I think at present its Djoker.
     
  41. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Wow it's mind-boggling to see that people are actually equating Novak's form at the USO2010 with his form of 2011. It's a completely different breed of Novak that is playing now. This is not to say Novak didn't play well in USO2010, but in 2011 he is simply playing on a different level. There is no form that Nadal has displayed at any point in his career on any surface that could defeat Novak of 2011. Sure their first two HC matches of 2011 were close, but that was because Novak was not playing his best in those matches the way he did in AO2011 and Rome and Madrid. Nadal's FO2011 was essentially gifted to him by Roger Federer.
     
  42. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    I find this so funny. So Novak is playing THAT MUCH BETTER and Rafa is OBVIOUSLY not playing as well as he did last year but somehow he was 2 points away from winning Miami? GTFO!!! A lot of u guys need to watch the USO final again. It's just as impressive as everything he's done this year IMO, I haven't been anymore impressed. The difference is Rafa OUTPLAYED him, like it or not. And I hope he does it again at Wimbledon to kill your argument.
     
  43. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    ^^^ On the contrary, I do think Nadal is playing as good as he did last year, it's just not good enough to beat Novak. Nadal's is simply an inferior tennis player to Novak2011. That Nadal was 2 points away from winning the HC Master's shows that he in fact was playing as good as last year if not better, and he STILL lost against subpar Novak. That Novak was subpar there was proven by the fact that it went to 3 sets on his best surface and he demolished Nadal in straight sets twice on Nadal's best surface.
     
  44. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    No, I've watched it twice and the bold part isn't true at all . He played well, but not as well as he did in 2011 when playing well. Main differences being his serve and confidence.

    Nadal's best chances vs Novak are at Wimbledon now btw
     
  45. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Both Nadal and Novak are playing better in 2011 than in 2010,simply because the game is always evolving and players have to improve every year to keep up(unless they're too old but we're talking about two young players at their peaks here).

    So basically Nadal improved since last year but Novak improved even more :).
     
  46. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Talk Tennis Guru

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    There is so much fail in this paragraph I don't even know where to begin. So which is it, Nadal was close because he's playing better than ever or Novak was subpar? Anyone on this board, I don't care who you are a fan of.... ANYONE that says Nadal is playing better tennis than he ever has, has lost every shred of credibility they have. Analysts, commentators, fans, and even Nadal himself has said he is not playing to his abilities, it's more than obvious. Stevie Wonder can see that in the basement. Hes had a little bit of luck that no one else is really playing that great either... hence the 7 finals. You can watch HIGHLIGHTS of any Rafa match this year and not be impressed at all. He finally started playing well in the quarters of the FO, and brought a good level to the final after that slow start. Novak would have closed the door on the first set, but the level Rafa brought after that would have won in 4 or 5. 2010 Rafa would demolish 2011 Rafa.
     
  47. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    So Nadal is supposedly playing so much worse than before yet he reached 7 finals in a row(something he never did in his career)with a very possible 8th final coming at Wimbledon,is this a weak era then? What are the possible explanations?
     
  48. Hitman

    Hitman G.O.A.T.

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    I think if Novak didn't catch the form he did. Nadal would have probably swept everything from IW to now. Thats FIVE straight MS plus a slam. Since only an inform, confident Djoker has stopped him, in finals nonetheless.

    If Nadal is playing that poorly, and still having such a remarkable run that he has, then you may have a point about a weak era.
     
  49. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

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    Nadal is obviously playing better than he ever has. The results speak for themselves, 7 consecutive finals. All else is just the subjective opinions of the tards. The data never lie. Nadal is playing incredible tennis, Novak is simply better. I can understand how hard that fact is to accept for the tards, but denial won't change the truth. Nadal is still a great player, nothing to be ashamed of. Some people are just better than you, and you have to live with it.
     
  50. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yet according to most Nadal fans this is an amazingly strong era,there seems to be some conflicted statements here that don't make a lot of sense when put together.

    I mean Nadal who is supposedly playing so much worse than last year reached both IW and Miami finals and lost close matches to Novak(the guy who's 41-1 this year)yet last year when he played so much better he was losing to Ljubicic and Roddick(both way past their prime)in those same tourneys,players who are very often deemed as "weak era" chumps.Even if we go back to 2008(start of the "real" Nadal)he lost to another "weak era" player Davydenko in the Miami final,in straights no less.

    It all seems a bit iffy to be honest.Keeping in mind that it's Nadal fans who use "weak era" argument so often,I personally don't consider any era to be weak.
     

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