NTRP Year-End ratings?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Caswell, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. Caswell

    Caswell Semi-Pro

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    OK, silly question - when are the year-end ratings released? One would think that it would be at the end of the year, but some of the other discussions seem to indicate they're released before hand.

    My section has released early start league ratings, but I didn't generate enough dynamic results to change my self-rate (four doubles matches, but only one singles match against another self-rated player).
     
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  2. migjam

    migjam Professional

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    I believe that it is at the end of November. But, it may be up to the section that you live in.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2006
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  3. Ace

    Ace Semi-Pro

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    The Kentucky USTA website
    ( http://www.kentuckytennis.com/usta/ntrp_ratings.htm ) posted this:

    "2006 NTRP Year-End Ratings are expected to be pubished the week of November 27. If we get them sooner, we will publish them as soon as received. "

    I remember last year it was in November. I believe once the National Championships are finished (Mixed Doubles is Nov. 16-19th), the rating calculations will be run. Though USTA always says mixed doubles ratings arent included in your rating unless you play mixed doubles exclusively. But maybe they want them all to come out at the same time.

    Its a National Rating from a National Database, so I can't see it being different from section to section.
     
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  4. cak

    cak Professional

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    If you are looking them up on Tennislink it all comes out at the same time. I understand around November 21st. If you are looking them up from your local area site that doesn't link directly to tennislink (say from the NorCal database) it might be a week later.
     
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  5. Ace

    Ace Semi-Pro

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    Ok, I didn't know that not everyone used TennisLink.
    How come NorCal doesn't use TennisLink? Did they just already have a website/database in place before TennisLink came along?
    How do they keep both databases synchronized?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2006
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  6. tennis-n-sc

    tennis-n-sc Professional

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    Here in the Southern Section they usually appear around Thanksgiving.
     
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  7. DANMAN

    DANMAN Professional

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    The date given by my local league coordinator is next Tuesday November 21,
     
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  8. jack mckinney

    jack mckinney Rookie

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    november21 for the midatlantic
     
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  9. Ash Doyle

    Ash Doyle Professional

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    Go ahead and check you rating today. For my section, not all players have been updated yet, but some already show in the system with their new rating.
     
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  10. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    I'm in the Southern Section (AL) and most of the ratings have been updated for the End of the Year. They must have come out today.
     
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  11. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    #11
  12. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    Wow, that's right. I got bumped to 5.0, not such great news, the 5.0 guys in Austin are mostly young former college players, and I'm a 44 y.o pusher....
     
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  13. goober

    goober Legend

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    I would appeal. It wouldn't hurt unless you really think you can compete at 5.0.
     
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  14. GRANITECHIEF

    GRANITECHIEF Hall of Fame

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    Just keep the ball deep, don't give em too much pace, and run like heck. You shouldn't have any problem.
     
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  15. Ace

    Ace Semi-Pro

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    bah....challenge yourself! show those college punks a thing or two! :)
     
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  16. approachshot

    approachshot New User

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    So if the rating says that it ends with 12/31/2006 then that is your rating for the 2007 year?
     
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  17. Ace

    Ace Semi-Pro

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    That is correct.
     
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  18. Caswell

    Caswell Semi-Pro

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    I'm not sure whether to laugh or cry. I'm a "benchmark" 3.0. I guess if you go to regionals that's what happens?

    I was hoping to get rated at 3.5, so that I could get out of playing in the 3.0 leagues... not a whole lot of competition at that level anymore. I've been playing (and winning) as a 3.5 in USTA tournaments and leagues.

    I'm sure my club will expect me to play on the 3.0 men's team next spring (as well as the 3.5 "B" team). I guess my best bet is to tell them I want to play singles and go for the dynamic DQ.
     
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  19. Ace

    Ace Semi-Pro

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    Not necessarily. How did you do at regionals?

    Were your 3.0 wins against people who won other matches, or did they lose all their matches?

    Just curious....I know its supposed to be a complex algorithm that takes into account your dynamic point spread and your performance against other benchmarks....but sometimes I see ratings that look like they were a cross between "how many fingers am I holding up" and "pick a number between 1 and 10". :)
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
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  20. dpfrazier

    dpfrazier Rookie

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    What's up with this? I also got bumped to 5.0 in Norcal, and I'm a 47 year-old Laver wannabe with bad knees...

    Maybe the USTA is picking on Norcal and Texas because of the shenanigans at Nationals...
     
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  21. Ash Doyle

    Ash Doyle Professional

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    I know that for 'Rating Type', a "C" mean it's a computer rating, and an "S" means self-rated; but what does a "T" mean?
     
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  22. goober

    goober Legend

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    Tournament rating perhaps? I played only tourneys this year and no league.
     
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  23. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    This completely sucks ostrich eggs. I sign up and play up as a freakin' favor to our captain and now stuck with a 4.0 rating. Only won two matches out of five, go figure.
     
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  24. DRtenniS1112

    DRtenniS1112 Semi-Pro

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    I got bumped up this year. I am playing on a combo mixed team and the new rating puts me over the limit in combo. Can I finish out the fall mixed league or do I have to find a new partner?
     
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  25. TriCitiesTennis

    TriCitiesTennis New User

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    I went 18-1 as 3.0 in tournaments. I went 3-3 in league play.

    The guys I lost to in league play, I ended up beating later in the season in tournament play.

    Now I am the last of the group to get a bump up. Every person who beat me is now a 4.5.

    The "T" as asked earlier, stands for a player who has played more tournament matches then league matches. Therefore, the USTA takes a rating of that player based on players within those tournaments.

    This "T" rating is actually the top rating in the USTA to the best of my knowledge.

    The rating scale is as follows:

    T
    B - Benchmark player (This players performance against an opponent will be weighed the next season for the opponent's rating).
    C- Computer rated. This player generally played enough matches to qualify for a bump, however they did not seem to perform at the higher level.
    M- Mixed Exclusive - This player played only Mixed Doubles, which is not weighted when it is the only league you play
    S- Self-rated - I think we all refer to this as a sandbagger or first year player.
     
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  26. Caswell

    Caswell Semi-Pro

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    I agree that the "T" is a tournament rating, but from what I can tell it's a rating for players who only played in tournaments.

    I had one singles result and four doubles results for league play. I had six singles results from tournament play. I got a "B" rating.

    To answer Ace's question... I did OK at regionals. Won both of my doubles matches, including our match against the team that advanced to sectionals. I choked during my one singles match at regionals, and got beat 6-0, 7-6 by another self-rated player who was moved to 3.5 in the early start ratings published earlier. That 6-0 set probably sealed my fate.

    If you really want to take a look at my results, just search for "Casey Haddock" in TennisLink.

    No worries I suppose. I wouldn't have been let onto my club's "A" 3.5 team anyway, so at least I'll get my "B" team 3.5 league matches and probably go to regionals again with the 3.0 team.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2006
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  27. goober

    goober Legend

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    Well if you won 2 matches out of 5, why wouldn't you think that you are a 4.0 player? A legit 3.5 player would have won zero or maybe taken at most 1 match with very close scores.
     
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  28. TriCitiesTennis

    TriCitiesTennis New User

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    I have a "T" rating and I am not tournament exclusive.

    I have been informed that because 75% of my matches came in tournament style play that I am "T" rated.
     
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  29. jagsv650

    jagsv650 Rookie

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    I was just told if you're a "B" rated player your exempt from being moved up or down for two years. Can anyone confirm that?
     
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  30. Ash Doyle

    Ash Doyle Professional

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    Is this "T" Rating new for this year? It doesn't show up in their own legend for Rating Types. I played nothing but tournaments last year, but still ended with a "C" type rating.
     
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  31. ChipNCharge

    ChipNCharge Professional

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    I asked our USTA league coordinator what a "T" rating meant. He replied and said, "Maybe it stands for Terrific. Haha. I don't know what it means."
     
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  32. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Goob, the 2 doubles matches we won were against, IMHO, 3.5 players playing up. And my dubs partner is 70 yrs old. And we won in straight sets.

    ps, hell to the nah, my partner is still rated 3.5, whatupwitdat?
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2006
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  33. tennis-n-sc

    tennis-n-sc Professional

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    This is not true. You can up or down based on your play results. The B designation is based on the previous year's results and is used to rate other players competiveness during the upcoming year.
     
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  34. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    The "B" Benchmark rating means that the player went to Regionals or Sectionals and, thus, played a wider range of players than a player that only played local leagues. The "idea" is that if player A goes to sectionals and plays 5 matches, how other (local league players) do against him (the benchmark) should be measured against players from other local leagues (in theory anyway). Playing a benchmark player holds more weight in the dynamic ratings than a non-BM. It's the old "common opponent" method of rating.

    As to being exempt for having a benchmark, I have not found that to be true. I know several folks that were benchmark 3.5's last year (went to regionals) and now got bumped to 4.0 (as a benchmark).
     
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  35. cak

    cak Professional

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    I do know that it's tougher if not impossible to appeal a "B" rating, as that was assigned by a verifier.
     
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  36. SunDog

    SunDog Rookie

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    Benchmark means only two things -

    1. That you played in a USTA competition beyond the local league. That includes playing in a local playoff or going to a district tournament.

    2. Your year end rating is slightly more accurate than folks with a C, M, or S designation. It is deemed more accurate since half of your year end rating is supposedly based on your dynamic rating and half is a benchmark rating that flows down from the players who competed in the national tourney. Kind of the transitive property of tennis ratings. People who went on to play in championsip rounds are deemed to have been closer to the nat players in degrees of separation. Everybody's computer rating, except probably those of M and S players, has a benchmark component in it.

    It has nothing to do with your designation as a quality player. That is a myth that won't seem to die - no matter how many times it is explained. Witness - a 3.0 player from 2006 who played in a local playoff or went to state and got bumped up at the end of 2006 will be a 3.5 B for 2007. Results vs a benchmark player may seem "weighted" but in reality there is no weighting component for playing a B in the Dynamic calculation. The B players tend to have higher ratings - because it takes good players to advance beyond the local comp. Therefore if you beat one, or play one close - the rating differential between the opponents tends to be greater and therefore when compared to the match score differential - the dynamic rating adjustment will seem more pronounced.

    There is no protection from bumping either way with a B.
     
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  37. atatu

    atatu Hall of Fame

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    Can a benchmark player appeal ?
     
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  38. TriCitiesTennis

    TriCitiesTennis New User

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    This is the best explanation of a "B" - Benchmark player I have seen in quite sometime.
     
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  39. TriCitiesTennis

    TriCitiesTennis New User

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    It is my understanding that any ranking may be appealed. However, I have been told that "B" ratings are harder to get appealed unless for medical reasons. No proof other than just word of mouth.
     
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  40. goober

    goober Legend

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    Hmm I only played tourneys this year and got a T rating. The mystery deepens :)
     
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  41. Dr. Van Nostrand

    Dr. Van Nostrand New User

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    I play in Norcal and after browsing around some teams and players that I am familiar with it appears that there are quite a few mistakes that will need to be fixed in the next few days. Typically there are corrections made in the first few days after the new ratings hit the websites. There is no way some of these people should have been moved up based on my experience playing against them or watching them play. I did not see anybody in my local area that had their rating go down which is somewhat unbelievable. Unless Norcal teams have been doing extremely well at the National playoffs (which I don't think is the case) and there is a general all round upward adjustment of people's ratings.
     
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  42. momwendy

    momwendy New User

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    Here's what is posted on USTANorcal.com:

    Q: What are benchmark players?
    A: A benchmark player is a player whose rating has been determined by the computer using a combination of his dynamic rating and his match results, and to whose record other records are compared, directly or indirectly, to derive ratings for a large number of players. Generally speaking, playes who participate in USTA League Tennis National, Section and/or area championships, and disqualified players, are benchmarks.

    Q: Can a Benchmark player appeal his rating?
    A:A National Benchmark player cannot appeal his rating for 12 months. There is no appeal restriction on a District or Section or Area (local league) Benchmark player.

    p.s. This was also confirmed by NorCal: A National Benchmark player is one who actually PLAYED in National competition (not merely on the roster). Also, medical appeals can be made regardless of classification -- even benchmarks. (However, not sure on success rate.)

    And yes, it appears a lot of people were bumped up in Norcal...
     
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  43. dpfrazier

    dpfrazier Rookie

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    This is the best post on ratings I have ever read...

    Welcome to Talk Tennis, MomWendy!
     
    #43
  44. max8176

    max8176 Rookie

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    I agree with Dr. Van. I think the latest Norcal rating is ridiculous. Some of the people who got moved up do not even have a winning record; not to mention some players did not even win one matches. I know that you do not have to win matches to move up but still it's unbelivable. Some of the players were actually moved down during ESR period and they have not played any matches that will affected their rating and their YER still move up. Is this a scam for Norcal to earn extra cash from appeals if they move these people up on purpose. LOL
     
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  45. Geezer Guy

    Geezer Guy Hall of Fame

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    Almost half my 3.5 team (7 players) got bumped up to 4.0.
    One of the guys hadn't played any matches, and one had only played 1 match (and lost). The rest of us all had winning records at least - I was the only undefeated player that got bumped up, I think.

    Our captain wants us to appeal, but I worked too hard to get to 4.0. No way I'm going to appeal. Anyway - I'll probably get computer-bumped back down after a season of getting my butt kicked in the 4.0 league.
     
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  46. Ash Doyle

    Ash Doyle Professional

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    This is what I like to hear. Too many people see being bumped up as almost a punishment, and fight to stay at their old level. Forget that! I too worked hard this past year to improve, and getting bumped up was the reward. Now the challenge begins again next year.
     
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  47. dpfrazier

    dpfrazier Rookie

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    I agree --- stick with the rating that the system gives you.

    However, one somewhat-acceptable reason I can think of for appealing is if your new rating takes you to a level where there aren't sufficient members at your club at that level to form a team.

    This happens at our club at the 4.0 level for both men and women (it used to be the 3.5 level for women, but they have done so well at sectionals/nationals that they all got bumped up!)

    If you get rated above 4.0, then there aren't enough players to form a 4.5 team. (In fact, on the men's side we have taken the drastic measure of forming a 5.0 team instead, since you only need 1 singles and 2 doubles for 5.0...)
     
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  48. volklite

    volklite New User

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    Here in Mississippi we have the same 4.0 team make it to sectionals every year, they go and lose terribly so they are not bumped up, not one of them. Some of them went undefeated through local league and at state, not bumped up. Last year this happened to me and I watched it happen to 2 more people this year. I lost 3 matches last year and did not advance to state and was bumped up. How is that?

    Oh yeah, I formed a 4.5 team and there were 3 teams, we finished 2nd. We advanced to state, we are all now benchmarks, for what its worth. Its a broken system here where only 4 people you bumped to 4.5. Our state and local league is doing nothing to grow these leagues. I don't have a fair answer, just venting a frustration.
     
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  49. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    This time I decided to appeal my 4.0 rating (it was accepted, so I'm 3.5 again). The reason I appealed this year was from experience last year. I was bumped last year and did not appeal. So I played at 4.0 Spring, Combo and Mixed seasons. Being a lower end 4.0 limits your value (at least in my area) to being selected for a team. If you play 7.5 combo, you have to play with a 3.5 (who may be the better player). As a result of playing at the higher levels I got bumped down for the mid-year early start ratings.

    I went back to playing 3.5 leagues (also played 4.0, 0 wins) in the Fall (counts for '07). I have not lost yet at 3.5 this Fall season. Because the early start rating only applies to league play, I had to play 4.0 in all tournaments this year. I did OK, 2-4 overall in match play. So the end of the year I get bumped back to 4.0. I didn't want another year like this year. This time I thought, if I truely belong at 4.0 my appeal would be denied (which it wasn't). I am a little disappointed, and may only play 4.0 next season anyway. But it's nice to have the 3.5 options...

    I wish that they would do away with the appeals process, everyone (at least here) appeals everytime. So why not just raise the bumping level and do away with appeals. But since that is not the case, why not play within the rules as much as possible?
     
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  50. timmbuck2

    timmbuck2 New User

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    wait....you are undefeated at 3.5 this fall....went 2-4 at 4.0 tourneys this year....and you appealed to go back to 3.5? I think the 2 biggest problems the USTA has with ratings are self-raters, and appeals that are WAY too easy. What was your reason for appealing? If you can win matches at the 4.0 level and are not losing at all at 3.5, why would you want to play 3.5? Not attacking or calling names, I am just curious.

    TB2
     
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