NTRP Year-End ratings?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Caswell, Nov 14, 2006.

  1. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    He appealed because there's a structural flaw built-in to this system. He wants to play in USTA leagues. USTA league teams want him to play at 3.5, where he'll win, and want nothing to do with him at 4.0, where he won't win. The USTA is not giving him, or anybody else for that matter, any incentive to continue taking losses at the higher level.

    VIDEO GAMES do a better job at this than the USTA. You level up in a video game, you don't stop playing, and you certainly don't keep hanging around at the previous level. Why? Because there's no reason to. Can we say the same thing about USTA tennis? No - and that's the problem.
     
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  2. Ash Doyle

    Ash Doyle Professional

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    The flaw isn't with the USTA. Players should want to compete at the level where they can have the best competition, not hang around at lower levels and beat-up unfairly on lesser players. If you can finish a season undefeated at 3.5, then most likely, you should NOT be playing at 3.5. Maybe if the majority of the matches ended in close three setters I could see that maybe you're a good 3.5 that was having a good year. However, if those matches were quick two setters then you should not be at 3.5. Appealing to stay at 3.5, in my eyes, would be attempting to cheat.

    You should want the competition. NOT winning for the sake of winning in a mismatched competition against lesser players.
     
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  3. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    You can win matches at a higher level only because others are playing up. They are 3.5 players too. But if you beat them handily and only lose to 4.0 teams by close scores, then you need to move up.
     
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  4. Ace

    Ace Semi-Pro

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    Can't you start a new 4.0 team with your 3.5 teammates? Or some other 3.5's?
     
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  5. ohplease

    ohplease Professional

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    How do you define "the best competition?" More importantly, how does a team captain define it? Regardless of what any individual player might want to do - why should a *team captain* take on someone transitioning to the next highest level? Why should that team captian play that person?

    How about in tournament play - when should the matches be competitive? In the first round? In the final?

    Appealing to what players "should" do is no incentive at all - it's hoping for the best and it's consequently no surprise that things play out as ridiculously as they do in USTA play when titles and trophies are on the line.
     
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  6. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    I do have a 4.0 team and it's mostly made up of 3.5 players. We never win a team match and have hardly won any individual matches, I enjoy playing 4.0 and will continue to do so. My 4.0 wins in tournaments have been against "4.0" players that would be weak 3.5s in league play (that's a fact), my losses were against player that would be low 4.0s.

    At first, I was not going to appeal (in fact last year I did not). I was the only player in my local league that was bumped from 3.5 to 4.0 that did not try to appeal. I changed my mind this season after getting hammered as a 4.0 (playing adult, combo and mixed) then getting bumped back to a 3.5 anyway. I don't mind lossing as long as it's competitive. The USTA allows players to appeal based on a threshold in your dynamic rating. Everyone else is taking advantage of these rules.

    Do I feel guilty for winning the appeal back to 3.5? Not one bit. I play to win every match and try to win every point. I would consider being DQ'd or a denied appeal a "badge of honor". I might not even play 3.5 Adult in the Spring. But it will be better to be a 3.5 for Combo and Mixed.

    Also my 3.5 season ain't over yet...I may still drop a few.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2006
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  7. timmbuck2

    timmbuck2 New User

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    Boy, I really don't understand this comment. DQ'ed for playing below your level would make you feel good?

    I can't accept the excuse "everyone else is doing it"...that is what has brought us to this low level.
     
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  8. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    If I understand the system correctly, bleach has a computer generated rating that lies somwhere between 3.51 and 3.55, which would mean he is technically a 4.0 (because they round up anything beyond the half point). From his own admission, he seems to compete well with players with a true computer generated 3.5 rating, but does not compete favorably with true 4.0 rated players.

    I understand the comments that he should want to challenge himself at the next level. However, there is a big difference between a 3.51 and a 3.90+... so much so that he would probably struggle to get games in a set. Given that, if his whole goal is to participate and have fun, he might have a hard time finding a 4.0 team to play on (which is what he's indicated).

    I don't really have a problem with the type of situation that bleach is talking about. If you are playing tons of matches, do not cheat the system (ie, you play to win every time), and you have a computer generated rating, you are what you are. In that sense, with the DQ comment, he was saying "if the system really thinks I am a 4.0, then that is great."

    My problem with the NTRP is when a player self rates drastically below their true level or cheats by purposely throwing matches or games in order to trick the system into a lower rating. It doesn't sound like bleach is doing either of these... but I can give you several examples of true cheating if you want to discuss.
     
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  9. jack mckinney

    jack mckinney Rookie

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    there was a player in our league not lose a match at 4.5 and they moved him back to 4.0.... got him on our team now.. but go figure how they did that
     
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  10. timmbuck2

    timmbuck2 New User

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    don't get me wrong, I am not accusing him of cheating! He is playing by the USTA rules, flawed as they are. I just have different goals, that's all.
     
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  11. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    Is the rating system flawed? It sure is... Is it flawed because I decided to play within the rules use the tools that are provided (appeals). No way!

    Everyone wants to get to the next level, whether the next level for them is Sectionals/Nationals or 4.0/4.5... The dynamic rating system has given people a way to see how they are advancing. I am honored to see my rating get bumped up. But with the appeals process, you can't truly feel like you have advanced unless you have your appeal denied. The system has just created this situation. Last year, I did not appeal and felt like I didn't really belong. I knew without a doubt that I would win an appeal if I tried.

    For the first time ever, this season I'm playing on a team that has hopes to go beyond local league play (last season team went to sectionals-- not with me). I decided to play and make to goal to go as far as possible.

    I really think that it is funny that you (or someone) is questioning my morals because I decided to appeal within the rules. In three years I have played over 100 league matches, I have been bumped 4 times (3 up/1 down) and have appealed once. If we are going to rely on a computer to determine the rating we play under, then let the computer decide.
     
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  12. Geezer Guy

    Geezer Guy Hall of Fame

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    I'm not bagging on bleach - he appears to be playing by the letter of the law (if maybe not the spirit). Howere, he said he was UNDEFEATED in 3.5 play and has a 2-4 record against 4.0 players. That tells me that with just a LITTLE improvement he could be 3-3 against 4.0 players, and who knows HOW much better he would get playing against the big boys? But, he chooses to stay at 3.5 where he can rack up the easy wins. He would certainly be in for tougher matches in the 4.0 league and he'd have to suffer some losses, but it might be better for his game.

    I understand how he feels though - it's no fun going from being one of the best guys on the team to someone who's just trying to MAKE the team.
     
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  13. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Come on, you could win your serve at 3.5 just by getting it in and WALKING OFF the court, the return is in the net or out. Return the ball to the server and LEAVE, he will miss the 1st volley or half-volley. Taken bets on how quickly the matches are over. Lost the bet, ours took 35 minutes.
     
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  14. Geezer Guy

    Geezer Guy Hall of Fame

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    That is usually not true of a match between two 3.5 players.
    That would only be true if one or the other was either WAY above or WAY below the 3.5 level.
     
    #64
  15. bleach

    bleach Rookie

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    Ok let me explain myself one more time....

    I do push myself and want to advance. I'm a 4.0 team captain, I put myself (undeservingly) at singles against "big boys", I'm not afraid of losing. If I was, I would have died by now. My goal is to make it to a true 4.0 player, not a border-line player. I also have a goal to help my team (3.5) win the local-league, regional, sectionals.... To do this you (as well as your teammates) have to rack up lots of wins (some easy, some not). With a lot of wins, you end up getting bumped up. To keep your team together, you appeal. Again it's what your goals are. I commented to helping my team advance (win), to do that I need to be on the team, but only using legal, ethical, moral means of doing so.

    Again I don't understand the "not playing by the spirit of the law" comment. If I was hiding out, playing #3, sitting out against better players or not doing my best everytime you could accuse me of that... and easy wins... yeah I keep waiting for one of those!
     
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  16. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    Bleach,

    As I have mentioned before, I don't have a problem with computer rated players that have long records and do not dodge matches (or otherwise mess with the system) like yourself.

    I don't think that there is anything ethically wrong ("spirit of the law" or otherwise) with what you are doing. You are on the borderline between 3.5 and 4.0, and under the system, if you are between 3.51 and 3.55, you automatically qualify to stay at 3.5. Players in the 3.01 to 3.39 range will gripe because you likely are more consistant than them, but you should have tough matches with those in the 3.4 to 3.5 range like yourself. Another way of looking at it would be that if you played nothing but fellow players in the 3.4 to 3.5 range, your record would probably be around the .500 mark.

    (That's why the "unbeaten in 3.5" claim doesn't concern me; you might have played nothing but weak 3.5ers, or 3.0 players playing up. Also, the 4.0 players you played might have been on the low end of the spectrum, or were also really 3.5ers like yourself.)

    As for winning districts, sectionals, and nationals, the fact is that you could load your entire team roster with players that are on the borderline between 3.5 and 4.0 like yourself, and you still probably wouldn't go to nationals (much less win there) because of unethical teams that outright cheat with one of these methods:

    1.) Recruiting self rated players that are 1-3 levels higher, and hiding them in doubles, only using them for the minimum amount of time before playoffs. (Usually requires players to lie on the self evaluation form, which happens quite often with former college players.)

    2.) Purposely throwing matches to avoid strikes or to game the system to generate lower ratings. (Some teams plan their national championship runs years in advance and game the system in their favor to build a team.)

    3.) With advanced planning, have a player self-rate 3 or more levels below their true level, play a year at the low level, and then get the computer rated bump to the next level (even if it is still 2 levels lower than where they should be.) For example, recruit a 5.0 player to play at 3.5 for a year. The computer or three strikes system should catch him, but it will not bump him up more than one level. Viola! Now he has a "legitimate" 4.0 computer rating, even if he is really a 5.0.

    I have personally seen all of these tactics used in the past two years from teams that have gone to nationals from the section I live in. If you were one of those types on here trying to justify yourself, I would certainly be leveraging a lot of criticism also!
     
    #66
  17. Ronaldo

    Ronaldo G.O.A.T.

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    Geez, that happened this year in a 4.0 dubs match and one of our opponents was rated 4.0. And my partner is over 70! On clay! On a cool evening! No sun! No wind! Free beer if you win or lose! Only griping because it is hard to break into our 4.0 team line-up, only play when we travel.
     
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  18. Jack the Hack

    Jack the Hack Hall of Fame

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    Well, as the opposite of some of the people who cheat, there are some players that are living on old, expired, over-inflated ratings from years ago... or self rate much higher than they really are. They do not play enough to have the results effect their rating either way, and they just hang on for years at the wrong level to have a chance to say they are on a good team or have a good rating.

    I'm at the lower end of the 4.5 spectrum right now (and was rated 4.0 last year), but there are several players on my club's 4.5 and 5.0 teams that I absolutely destroy in singles (or doubles for that matter). Almost any solid 4.0 singles player would beat these guys easily, but they have been rated 4.5 or higher for years and the system will never drop them because they only play a couple sanctioned doubles matches per year. On the other hand, I've played over 100 matches in the past two years between a combination of tournaments and league play and have a 76-29 record. If you are seriously playing a lot of matches, you are going to have a huge advantage over the pretenders that only show up occassionally, regardless of relative rating levels. I'm betting that the two guys you thumped in doubles were pretenders...
     
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