Observations of playing/practicing with a 3.0 pusher

[Deleted member 23235]

Thought I'd share this for folks at the 3.0, 3.5 and low 4.0 levels, having trouble with pushers..

Practiced with my dad, who's been playing for decades. Has good eye/hand coord, but being 70+ his mobility is limited. He can get the ball back easily when I hit everything to him.

Played a bunch of baseline games.... with modified rules:

• I can hit as hard as I want, but I'm not allowed to hit winners (ie. it's got to be with 1-2 steps from him)
• He gets as many bounces as he needs to get the ball back (ie. i can't drop shot hit accidently or on purpose)
• He gets the doubles alley

Style 1: baseline basher (fh only - eg. run around bh when i can)

• approximate scores: 11-6
• most errors coming from short balls I tried to do too much with.
• was often able to hit through him.
• it was easy for him to bunt back balls high and deep with minimal effor

Style 2: baseline basher (bh only - eg. run around fh, or only return easy floater on fh)

• approximate scores: 11-8 range
• obviously made many more errors, again, mostly on short balls where i was trying to do too much
• unable to bash through him (my 2hbh is not nearly as strong as my fh)
• 2hbh does not "fire" as smoothly... normally just use to neutralize (vs. attack),... need to work on this more
• he often made me just play a neutralizing shot (after I piled on errs from overhitting), which allowed him to start moving me around

Style 3: slice and dice (both bh/fh)

• approximate scores: 11-3 range
• despite getting 2 bounces, still very effective making him bend low
• rallies were much longer
• mainly beat him with fitness (with most "pushers" advertised on these boards, a pusher will usually have very good fitness)

Style 4: high lob (ts and slice)

• appriximate scores: 11-2
• again long rallies, but won mostly from his errs
• basically was doing what a pusher is trying to do... keep the ball high and out of the strikezone, making it *much* harder to attack

Morals of the story:

• If you can't control your power (consistently hitting deep and with direction), it's actually a liability despite how pretty it looks. It's really easy for pushers to return back a hard hit ball that lands in the center of the court... and they can often return it back deep.
• consistently hitting hard keeps the pusher in rhythm.... switching hard, off speed, slice, ts lob, etc... is far more effective
• hitting off pace shots that force a pusher to generate their own power is very effective
• expect to run alot,... if your fitness is not good, and you don't have a weapon to compensate (eg. pinpoint powerful fh), you're gonna lose. tennis is a running game!
• high bouncing (lob?) balls are harder than they look... they might seem "easy" but moving a ball out of a person's strikezone is more powerful than trying to beat his timing (ie hitting hard)
• short dinky shots (by pushers) are powerful,... against someone not used to approaching or handling short balls. I missed alot of short balls (more than i expected/wanted to) trying to do too much with it (especially when contact was made at a point below the net - eg. knee height). It's challenging to take a stroke in a way that gets the ball up to clear the net, and back down with topspin (especially if you're only used to taking groundstrokes from baseline to baseline). IMO the hallmark of the 5.0's i play is they are consistent at handling short balls (either as a topspin or slice winner/approach shot). For a while, I've been working on handling short balls more consistenly, to take advantage of them (vs. long protracted rallies to win by attrition)
• as a 4.5 playing a 3.0, i still got a great workout/practice session, just need to modify the rules to do so
• if you ever plan to get past the 4.0-4.5 level, you need to keep practicing attacking consistently ... (especially on short/easy balls that you'll get only one chance in a rally)... so grab every opportunity you have to play that pusher you despise playing! (expect it will take a while, and you may even lose against folks you can normally beat via attrition)

 

[Raul_SJ]

• short dinky shots (by pushers) are powerful,... against someone not used to approaching or handling short balls. I missed alot of short balls (more than i expected/wanted to) trying to do too much with it (especially when contact was made below the ball). IMO the hallmark of the 5.0's i play is they are consistent at handling short balls (either as a topspin or slice winner/approach shot). For a while, I've been working on handling short balls more consistenly, to take advantage of them (vs. long protracted rallies to win by attrition)

Were many of your approach shot misses into the net? And what does contact below the ball mean?

 

[RetroSpin]

The better you are than your opponent, the more conservatively you should play. The main exception is if you are mobility limited and your opponent can run all day.

 

[bitcoinoperated]

Interesting. I suffer badly with pushers, they just love heavy topspin balls unless you are able to hit through overpowering the pusher which is not easy 3.0 - 4.0 level especially generating all the pace yourself. Like you found slice is effective since they can’t just dink the heavy in-the-strike-zone topspin.

I often wonder what a high aggression but moderated power approach would look like:
Rein in the power on short balls but go for angles
Step in and drive volley some easier balls with short abbreviated swing (or over shoulder height just volley them with placement)
Some intimidation by drawing him into the net a few times and blasting a high margin pass (even if you miss it might help. Slice serve into the body. Approach the net on his 2nd serves.

I often feel I’ll have better percentages this way then trying to deal with deep, high paceless balls all day.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Were many of your approach shot misses into the net? And what does contact below the ball mean?

I corrected it.... i meant at a contact point that is below the net. Ie. it's hard to get the ball up over the net, and back down again, especailly from inside the service line (ie. knee height), if you're not used to practicing that shot.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

The better you are than your opponent, the more conservatively you should play. The main exception is if you are mobility limited and your opponent can run all day.

Exactly my argument..
Folks who complain about "pushers" overlook the fact that the pusher's main weapon is their fitness,... so mr. basher actually don't fall this advice because they can't (they get too tired too quickly - or at least before the pusher gets tired.) - and resorts to bashing, then complains that the pusher doesn't try to hit hard.

 

[Dartagnan64]

The pusher has two weapons: quick legs and hitting balls that move vertically through the hitting zone. That's pretty much it.

I agree that to beat pushers, you have to play pushers. The issue is that we all have limited recreational time and I'd rather pull out my teeth than play a moonballing pusher. A quick footed pusher I view as a chance to get a cardio workout. But those vertical traveling moonballs.... Just poke my eyes out.

 

[The Unknown]

Thought I'd share this for folks at the 3.0, 3.5 and low 4.0 levels, having trouble with pushers..

Practiced with my dad, who's been playing for decades. Has good eye/hand coord, but being 70+ his mobility is limited. He can get the ball back easily when I hit everything to him.

Played a bunch of baseline games.... with modified rules:

• I can hit as hard as I want, but I'm not allowed to hit winners (ie. it's got to be with 1-2 steps from him)
• He gets as many bounces as he needs to get the ball back (ie. i can't drop shot hit accidently or on purpose)
• He gets the doubles alley

Style 1: baseline basher (fh only - eg. run around bh when i can)

• approximate scores: 11-6
• most errors coming from short balls I tried to do too much with.
• was often able to hit through him.
• it was easy for him to bunt back balls high and deep with minimal effor

Style 2: baseline basher (bh only - eg. run around fh, or only return easy floater on fh)

• approximate scores: 11-8 range
• obviously made many more errors, again, mostly on short balls where i was trying to do too much
• unable to bash through him (my 2hbh is not nearly as strong as my fh)
• 2hbh does not "fire" as smoothly... normally just use to neutralize (vs. attack),... need to work on this more
• he often made me just play a neutralizing shot (after I piled on errs from overhitting), which allowed him to start moving me around

Style 3: slice and dice (both bh/fh)

• approximate scores: 11-3 range
• despite getting 2 bounces, still very effective making him bend low
• rallies were much longer
• mainly beat him with fitness (with most "pushers" advertised on these boards, a pusher will usually have very good fitness)

Style 4: high lob (ts and slice)

• appriximate scores: 11-2
• again long rallies, but won mostly from his errs
• basically was doing what a pusher is trying to do... keep the ball high and out of the strikezone, making it *much* harder to attack

Morals of the story:

• If you can't control your power (consistently hitting deep and with direction), it's actually a liability despite how pretty it looks. It's really easy for pushers to return back a hard hit ball that lands in the center of the court... and they can often return it back deep.
• consistently hitting hard keeps the pusher in rhythm.... switching hard, off speed, slice, ts lob, etc... is far more effective
• hitting off pace shots that force a pusher to generate their own power is very effective
• expect to run alot,... if your fitness is not good, and you don't have a weapon to compensate (eg. pinpoint powerful fh), you're gonna lose. tennis is a running game!
• high bouncing (lob?) balls are harder than they look... they might seem "easy" but moving a ball out of a person's strikezone is more powerful than trying to beat his timing (ie hitting hard)
• short dinky shots (by pushers) are powerful,... against someone not used to approaching or handling short balls. I missed alot of short balls (more than i expected/wanted to) trying to do too much with it (especially when contact was made at a point below the net - eg. knee height). It's challenging to take a stroke in a way that gets the ball up to clear the net, and back down with topspin (especially if you're only used to taking groundstrokes from baseline to baseline). IMO the hallmark of the 5.0's i play is they are consistent at handling short balls (either as a topspin or slice winner/approach shot). For a while, I've been working on handling short balls more consistenly, to take advantage of them (vs. long protracted rallies to win by attrition)
• as a 4.5 playing a 3.0, i still got a great workout/practice session, just need to modify the rules to do so
• if you ever plan to get past the 4.0-4.5 level, you need to keep practicing attacking consistently ... (especially on short/easy balls that you'll get only one chance in a rally)... so grab every opportunity you have to play that pusher you despise playing! (expect it will take a while, and you may even lose against folks you can normally beat via attrition)

Video by any chance?

 

[Dolgopolov85]

Try to drag them to net by using drops, short slices etc. I am playing a slicer these days. It's enjoyable. Get practice for slices and also stepping in for the second serve (like just behind the service line).

 

[10isMaestro]

But those vertical traveling moonballs.... Just poke my eyes out.

I depends on your abilities and preferences. Personally, I like hitting higher balls because my forehand grip is rather extreme (close to a full western) and I can produce lots of top spin. One of my friend tried to moonball me to death one day and it didn't pan out well for him. It works better when he keeps my contact point lower and when he forces me to adjust forward, not only sideways.

 

[LeeD]

Smart adversary looks at your grip, then slices every ball low, short, and skidding to just above you socks.

 

[sma1001]

An accomplished player has the versatility to push when required, and attack when required. A low short skidding shot, which LeeD refers to, can be a set up shot - it shouldn't just be seen as a push. Topspin is limited if its all you can do. Variety is something all tennis players should seek - look at Andy Murray.

 

[GuyClinch]

Folks who complain about "pushers" overlook the fact that the pusher's main weapon is their fitness,... so mr. basher actually don't fall this advice because they can't (they get too tired too quickly - or at least before the pusher gets tired.) - and resorts to bashing, then complains that the pusher doesn't try to hit hard.

Gonna disagree a little there - pusher's weapon is often their patience. The fitness may or may not be better then the so called 'basher'. These bashers are generally young guys that are just picking up the game and just play too aggressive for their skill level.. These players can have great levels of fitness. Some are even all around 'athletes' who play like full court hoops - excel at crossfit etc. I think they call this patience - 'shot tolerance.'

I am not really a pusher - but I do try to incorporate a little more shot tolerance - as I think this is something everyone can learn from a so called pusher. Wait for a ball that looks like you can do something with..before going on attack mode. Pushers have extraordinary shot tolerance. Only in extreme situations will they go for a little angle shot and end the point. Other then that - they let you hang yourself.

Basher types - its like - oh I can reach that - let me blast that DTL. So shot tolerance zero.

 

[Deleted member 23235]

Video by any chance?

you'd really want to see a vid of me playing a 70 yr old pusher?

is you cable not working or something?

 

[dimkin]

Thought I'd share this for folks at the 3.0, 3.5 and low 4.0 levels, having trouble with pushers..

Practiced with my dad, who's been playing for decades. Has good eye/hand coord, but being 70+ his mobility is limited. He can get the ball back easily when I hit everything to him.

Played a bunch of baseline games.... with modified rules:

• I can hit as hard as I want, but I'm not allowed to hit winners (ie. it's got to be with 1-2 steps from him)
• He gets as many bounces as he needs to get the ball back (ie. i can't drop shot hit accidently or on purpose)
• He gets the doubles alley

Style 1: baseline basher (fh only - eg. run around bh when i can)

• approximate scores: 11-6
• most errors coming from short balls I tried to do too much with.
• was often able to hit through him.
• it was easy for him to bunt back balls high and deep with minimal effor

Style 2: baseline basher (bh only - eg. run around fh, or only return easy floater on fh)

• approximate scores: 11-8 range
• obviously made many more errors, again, mostly on short balls where i was trying to do too much
• unable to bash through him (my 2hbh is not nearly as strong as my fh)
• 2hbh does not "fire" as smoothly... normally just use to neutralize (vs. attack),... need to work on this more
• he often made me just play a neutralizing shot (after I piled on errs from overhitting), which allowed him to start moving me around

Style 3: slice and dice (both bh/fh)

• approximate scores: 11-3 range
• despite getting 2 bounces, still very effective making him bend low
• rallies were much longer
• mainly beat him with fitness (with most "pushers" advertised on these boards, a pusher will usually have very good fitness)

Style 4: high lob (ts and slice)

• appriximate scores: 11-2
• again long rallies, but won mostly from his errs
• basically was doing what a pusher is trying to do... keep the ball high and out of the strikezone, making it *much* harder to attack

Morals of the story:

• If you can't control your power (consistently hitting deep and with direction), it's actually a liability despite how pretty it looks. It's really easy for pushers to return back a hard hit ball that lands in the center of the court... and they can often return it back deep.
• consistently hitting hard keeps the pusher in rhythm.... switching hard, off speed, slice, ts lob, etc... is far more effective
• hitting off pace shots that force a pusher to generate their own power is very effective
• expect to run alot,... if your fitness is not good, and you don't have a weapon to compensate (eg. pinpoint powerful fh), you're gonna lose. tennis is a running game!
• high bouncing (lob?) balls are harder than they look... they might seem "easy" but moving a ball out of a person's strikezone is more powerful than trying to beat his timing (ie hitting hard)
• short dinky shots (by pushers) are powerful,... against someone not used to approaching or handling short balls. I missed alot of short balls (more than i expected/wanted to) trying to do too much with it (especially when contact was made at a point below the net - eg. knee height). It's challenging to take a stroke in a way that gets the ball up to clear the net, and back down with topspin (especially if you're only used to taking groundstrokes from baseline to baseline). IMO the hallmark of the 5.0's i play is they are consistent at handling short balls (either as a topspin or slice winner/approach shot). For a while, I've been working on handling short balls more consistenly, to take advantage of them (vs. long protracted rallies to win by attrition)
• as a 4.5 playing a 3.0, i still got a great workout/practice session, just need to modify the rules to do so
• if you ever plan to get past the 4.0-4.5 level, you need to keep practicing attacking consistently ... (especially on short/easy balls that you'll get only one chance in a rally)... so grab every opportunity you have to play that pusher you despise playing! (expect it will take a while, and you may even lose against folks you can normally beat via attrition)

Great post ... a typical pusher is #2 in my 4.0 league @ Sutton with a 21-5 record ... and EVERYONE hates playing him, even though it's actually great IMO ... you get to practice!!! When in trouble - dink it back - it's not like he'll put it away ... but otherwise - I practice patterns ... it is annoying when the ball is out of the hitting zone - at least on a hardcourt one can time it and half-volley ... on crappy red clay not so much ... but one needs to treat it a PRACTICE
at contained hitting and weaving effective points together ...