Observations on Fed with new frame

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by sureshs, Jul 18, 2013.

  1. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    I watched the Majek match now and here are some comments:

    • Fed's BH is looking much more confident now. His balls are not landing short.
    • On a very high backhand, he still managed to raise his racket and drop the ball in reasonably.
    • The accuracy on his FH has not been compromised as feared by many
    • His serve is not the same as in his younger days, but I don't see any further loss in precision due to the frame. In fact, they are bouncing higher I feel.
    • His drop shots are sometimes going a little further than they should, but that should resolve itself with time.
    • Though I cannot prove this, I bet he is also expending less energy overall with the new frame as it gives him free power.
     
    #1
  2. falstaff78

    falstaff78 Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2012
    Messages:
    917
    Location:
    UK
    Great poast. When not trolling or piling invective or slander upon Federer, you are a very astute observer of the game.

    I must confess I clicked on this thread out of nothing but morbid curiosity about what sundry antagonism you would spout. I was pleasantly surprised.

    At this late stage of your career you should consider changing your poasting voice, much like, say, Federer has changed his racquet.
     
    #2
  3. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville
    Great poast in reply to great poast.
     
    #3
  4. hrstrat57

    hrstrat57 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,707
    Location:
    RI
    Agree 100% I think the frame sticks.
     
    #4
  5. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    I am proud to say that he withstood all the CC BH exchanges and only in one point, after 3 CC BHs, Majek hit an extremely angled quick one which slid into the sideline. Such a shot is only possible with a 2 hander, but Fed's BH otherwise stood up to the task very well.

    He just needs to reduce his swing speed a little and hit up more on the ball.

    As far as FH shanking goes, I have to agree with BP. He did shank a couple, and it seemed to be due to his fast swing speed when he was not positioned well. Bigger frame is not helping there.
     
    #5
  6. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville
    It is so relieving to see Roger not hitting short balls back from the BH side. If you ask me, he has looked slow in the recent past because he was always being on the back foot and having to hit defensive shots that land short. A vicious cycle that doesn't end well no matter how talented one is.

    There is no denying that today's game is baseline heavy. A big serve and good net play are added pluses but if you can't hang with the best from the baseline then it's a losing proposition.

    To that end, this is a very big and welcome move by Federer. People talk about shanks but that is less important than depth of shot. Other factors such as his poor returning, BP conversion or relatively slower movement won't go away, but if you ask me, he's solved 80% of his problems with this successful transition.
     
    #6
  7. 6-3 6-0

    6-3 6-0 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2013
    Messages:
    1,607
    Location:
    Fedal era
    RFederer is still making a few more errors than he should have, but I guess it'll improve with more practice with the racquet.

    I believe this was the only reason why he opted to play Hamburg and Gstaad, to get adjusted before playing any top player.
     
    #7
  8. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,657
    Wow, Federer really looked impressive pummeling clay-court powerhouse Jan Hajek in Hamburg. I'm sure this will put him in good stead for the clay-court season this fall.
     
    #8
  9. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville
    Also, has there ever been anyone that has made such a successful transition to a drastically different frame in such a short period of time??


    I mean some of the adjustment is normal, but with this big a change, I'm impressed with how quickly he has been able to adapt 90% of the way. The last 10% of comfort will take longer to come....by the USO or afterwards...
     
    #9
  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    I think we should not expect miracles with the frame at this age. My criteria for success is simply that he still continues to play next year. Hewitt was a former #1 and is still playing without caring about his ranking. Fed can also do the same, and take life easier with this frame.
     
    #10
  11. 6-1 6-3 6-0

    6-1 6-3 6-0 Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2012
    Messages:
    4,657
    Nadal added lead tape to his racquet, making it heavier. He made the transition look effortless.
     
    #11
  12. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    I wonder if Fed had a chat with Pete about this.
     
    #12
  13. kalyan4fedever

    kalyan4fedever Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2012
    Messages:
    2,956
    wow sureshs praising fed, what must have happened....i believe he will again go back to his original hate when fed loses..remember cincinatti...
     
    #13
  14. floide

    floide Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    164
    Although I'm impressed by the depth of Fed's BH, I'm still not convinced until I see him play against a top... 8?
     
    #14
  15. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    8,700
    I had to re-read the OP's name as I couldn't believe my eyes. Then I tried looking for sarcasm/trolling in the poast but couldn't find any :neutral:

    Anyway, this confirms what I have always said that OP (who incidentally is the GOAT poaster of TTW, having started the GOAT thread) is a closet Fed fan. Now that Fed has taken his long standing advise, OP doesn't need to hide it anymore ;-)

    Anyway, great observations, OP :) Need to see if these improvements are consistent over a period of time.
     
    #15
  16. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    5,409
    Location:
    USA
    Making a judgement based on one match... PRICELESS
     
    #16
  17. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    8,700
    Nah, not as impressive as RNadal losing to clay GOAT Zeballos in the vin-di-da tournament.
     
    #17
  18. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    Based on how he's looked so far, are you saying he's better off with his K90 against a Top 8 player?

    I think even if the result is not pretty against a Top 8 guy, I say his performance will still be better than if he were playing with his old racquet.
     
    #18
  19. Polaris

    Polaris Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,313
    The analysis is premature, in my opinion. We have only seen two matches played on slow courts. It would be interesting to see how Federer's backhand holds up, particularly with regards to racquet preparation, on faster surfaces or against opponents who can take away his time, and make him hurry up on the forehand/backhand side.

    As someone who plays the one-handed backhand, I find that the toughest adjustment to make when moving to a larger frame, is to compensate for the larger air resistance experienced by the racquet head when it moves through the air. Adjusting to the increased power by increasing the amount of topspin, or by reducing the speed of the "ploughing through" tends to come easier, whereas racquet preparation is exposed against fast groundstrokes. I need to prepare a fraction earlier when playing with a larger racquet. But then again, I'm just a recreational player, and there is only one Roger Federer :) .
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
    #19
  20. floide

    floide Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    164
    I hope so! I just can't assume he's playing better with his new racquet based only on matches against perfectly "winnable" opponents. I mean... it's HIGHLY likable that he would have beaten Brands and Hajek in similar fashion with his PS6190.
     
    #20
  21. sbengte

    sbengte Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 20, 2010
    Messages:
    8,700
    I know this is being said with the benefit of hindsight, but I wonder what may have happened if Fed had made this change before AO this year. His results since the beginning of the year have been abysmal, to put it mildly, so it couldn't have been any worse than what already is. Maybe he didn't want to risk it then because he thought he had a realistic shot at the AO.

    He could have tried it in the clay season but I think his back started acting up in IW and the long break he took before the clay season mostly went in recuperation and not much training, so it wasn't possible again. That was probably his best chance to do it, given he had a planned break around that time.

    Anyway, better late than never.
     
    #21
  22. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville


    The question here is not so much winning and losing as much as what's changed visibly in X's and O's of the game.

    If we can see clearly that his BH shots aren't landing short - which they did just a few weeks ago, even to a guy outside the top 100 - then that is cause to say that something has improved.

    I don't know why anything short of winning handily against a Top player is 'failure' as far as the switch goes.
     
    #22
  23. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    What???? The larger surface area is mostly air between strings.

    I play a one hander too and I switch between a Yonex RDS 001 Mid/PS 85 and a Yonex RDS 003 (98 sq in) for singles/doubles play. Never encountered what you're saying. In fact the swing speed is faster with a larger head because the racquet is lighter overall.

    The only difference I see is one of plow through and stability. Smaller heads have more weight concentrated in a smaller area.
     
    #23
  24. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    He has been too conservative and/or stubborn. You're right, he should have made this switch before the AO where he's struggled the past few years because of the slower HC surface. The added pop would have helped him greatly there.

    But if he thinks he has it in him to last a long time and that he still has mileage in the rest of his tennis game (body, speed etc) then that's his call. It will be a shame if after a successful switch, his body starts really declining. Imagine what could have happened if he'd done something like this end of 2010?
     
    #24
  25. Federer20042006

    Federer20042006 Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2012
    Messages:
    2,173
    So do you think Federer can win another Cincinnati with this new racket, giving him 23 slams?
     
    #25
  26. Polaris

    Polaris Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2005
    Messages:
    2,313
    nikdom, you are right that racquets with a larger head tend to be lighter. However, the air resistance is also impacted by the shape, at least in my experience. For example, a paddle would scythe through the air faster if its face is parallel to the air flow compared to the case when its face is perpendicular. A steel ball would sink in water, but a toy steel ship of the same mass would float. I know that the shapes are very different in this example, but the same principle seems to apply.

    A larger racquet is lighter, but its frame has a slightly broader shape, hence slightly larger volume, or presents slightly larger surface area in opposition to the air. That difference is perceptible to me, even when I play with racquets that have exactly the same HeadLight balance.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
    #26
  27. Rabbit

    Rabbit G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2004
    Messages:
    12,571
    Location:
    at the bottom of every hill I come to
    Yeah, John McEnroe went from wood in '83 to the best year ever on tour in '84 with a 200G graphite midsize.
     
    #27
  28. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    He can convert that to a plus by swinging slower and putting more margin on the ball, like the other 1 handers.
     
    #28
  29. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    Ok. I never felt it, but I respect your opinion and experience. Beats the folks here who talk about tennis never having stepped on a court.

    I feel swingweight a lot more than shape/area. My preference is for heavier/HL mids or lighter/even mid pluses. Back in the hyper hammer days I tried those light, head heavy racquets and they were just not for me. Whole stoke production is different with that sort of racquet.
     
    #29
  30. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=7599000#post7599000

    Created now for expert comments
     
    #30
  31. clayqueen

    clayqueen Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2010
    Messages:
    4,835
    I don't think it's possible to assess his performance with the new racquet until he's played against the Nadals, Djokos, Murrays, Tsongas and Berdychs. The people he'll play in Hamburg are players he would beat whichever racquet he uses.
     
    #31
  32. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville
    #32
  33. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    BP's position is well-known. He believes that smaller heads encounter much less resistance and are more suitable for 1 handed BH. I also think so, but the devil is in the details - how much worse and does it matter.
     
    #33
  34. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2013
    #34
  35. Aura

    Aura New User

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2013
    Messages:
    52
    Location:
    Toronto
    It is far too early.

    If it does help him we wont see the difference until he faces true challenges.

    I'm sure fed could have gotten this far with many different racquets.
     
    #35
  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    #36
  37. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    We will never know the answer. It is not a controlled experiment. We can only look for trends. Winning and losing is part of the game and what Fed would have done with or without this frame in just not answerable and never will be.
     
    #37
  38. nikdom

    nikdom Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,725
    Location:
    Tennisville

    Good catch. Ever since you mentioned Halep I haven't been able to mentally let go of the reduced you-know-what :)
     
    #38
  39. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    Answer:

    More surface area will cause more drag force. So, even if the string pattern is the same as a smaller headsize, the longer strings and the larger frame will create more surface area to plow through the air.
     
    #39
  40. floide

    floide Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    164
    Agreed. But in matches against weaker opponents we cannot see what got worse, and really see if his game has improved overall or not.
     
    #40
  41. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    And with stronger opponents, you cannot tell if his decline has slowed down with the frame or not, as you don't know how he would have done with the old frame. As he grows older, the decline can also get steeper very fast (as in health in real life). The frame might just change the slope of the descent.
     
    #41
  42. Emiliano55

    Emiliano55 Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 7, 2013
    Messages:
    1,112
    Hey, don't forget he played against BRANDS and HAJEK so far with the new stick.

    You cannot take any conclusion about his shots being improved or not if he doesn't face a player that could compromise his game.
     
    #42
  43. floide

    floide Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2012
    Messages:
    164
    ^ That's it.
     
    #43
  44. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    5,409
    Location:
    USA
    Fed will get slaughtered as soon as he meets a top 10 player.
     
    #44
  45. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    He hasn't been doing well against such players this year even with his old frame.
     
    #45
  46. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,454
    Federer has also been shanking the ball just as much (or even more) with his new 98 sq. in. racquet as with his old 90 sq. in. racquet.
     
    #46
  47. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,056
    Read post #5
     
    #47
  48. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,454
    But hasn't everyone on here always agreed that Federer could play even with a frying pan? :)
     
    #48
  49. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,454
    OK, I see you've already covered his continued shanking ways.
     
    #49
  50. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2011
    Messages:
    13,033
    Location:
    In the future
    That is not why he switched. he switched because he wants to be able to put some more Zip on his backhand drives when he plays Nadal. so that Nadal can't attack him to that side all day long.
     
    #50

Share This Page