Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by DoctorBackhand, Jan 21, 2012.
in case u didnt see it
i prefer open pattern cause i like to hit flat so need a lil spin help
Hate to sound like a whiner, but I'm a righty and lately I've developed left low back and left hip pain, which I think has resulted from the combined rotational torque and simultaneous knee bend required by the 2HFH shot. Has anyone else experienced this? Is there anything I can do to avoid it?
It seems like I had a similar issue when I was first developing the stroke. It eventually went away, but I think it was from the combination of rotational torque and reaching for balls with two hands I had no business reaching for. If you're having the same issue, I'd say know your limits: don't force the full-stretch two-hander. Either set up closer to the ball or, if you can't, stretch out with just the one hand. I have a nice slice and squash 1HFH when pulled out wide that I never had until I started hitting the 2HFH.
Yes i through my back out in a match a few weeks ago cause im just a power player so when i swing my 2FH i get a lot of back twist basically my coach stated me do a few yoga strecths before i get on court for a match it really helps im so serious the streches novak does in this video are the same i do now and i dont have then pain anymore
do you think since we are using 2HF the racket for a 2H player should be atleast 100 if not bigger
Thanks, Brian and Ashanti. Lessons to be learned: (1) stretch before playing; and (2) don't reach too far with two hands; use one hand instead.
Doesn't really matter but 100-98 is a good place for anyone to start, whether a 1 hander or 2 hander.
Angular vs Linear
I've been studying a lot of the 2 handers in my playlist the last few days, namely Johnny Wang (thanks to the poster who introduced me to that video), Julien Knowles, the college player Tarun Kishan, Yan Zi,and Shuai Peng. Besides them all having the same grip of SW/Conti there wasn't really anything similar about the men's forehands and the women's forehands. Is it that male 2 handers, like their 1 handed counterparts on the tour, prefer the more modern forehand while the women tend to do a more old school forehand?
Other male college players
On a side note if there are any people here who know how to edit video would it be possible for you to do a video analysis of a pro 2 hander showing things like prep, contact, etc...? The only person who has one is hi10spro. Its okay, but I believe a better quality video could be made.
Tang, something else. Thinking about my pulled muscle from a couple months ago, I thought of something else, maybe most important:
I know on the 2HBH, there are competing factions that claim that the shot should powered mostly by the dominant or non-dominant hand. For the 2HFH, there really isn't an option in my experience. Your shot should be power mostly by your dominant hand. I'd say at the very least, it should be equally powered by each hand. Anything more than that, and I think you might be pulling with your non-dominant side in a way that is not natural.
Also, I went out and recorded a little bit of ball machine hitting tonight. Should have it up over the weekend.
Well, going through the footage that I took, only one video is decent. I didn't have the camera high enough, so the sidelines are not in frame. Seeing as most of (and the best of) my hitting was cross-court drills, I was not left with much. Towards the end of my session, I had the machine on oscillate. Here it is, warts (I apologize for some of those slices....eek!) and all.
FYI, I am currently in 3.0 flex leagues, where I hover around .600 to .800 (probably moving up to 3.5 soon), and who's been playing less than two years and have been hitting the 2HFH since last July or August, I guess. Putting it up more as a show-and-tell as opposed to in order to be critiqued, but I wouldn't reject any pointers anyone had.
I lied. Here's another. Again, some of those 1HFH slices are bad. I sometimes lose the racquet-face angle when switching from topspin to slice. Working on it.
Brian, I like your strokes on both sides. One suggestion on both, hold your finish longer, both the stroke as well as your balance point with your feet. You will gain better overal balance on each shot, your stroke will be more defined as well as repeatable, and you will develop better stroke awareness and feel. Other than that, your swing path is excellent and your body position is good for the 2hfh.
Thanks for posting your strokes! (I've been teaching the 2hfh for 18 years with outstanding success!) Good luck to you!
Thanks Dave! That means a lot! I will give the your suggestion on the finish a shot.
Here's another one..
Adding another video to the list from fellow poster Dizzlmcwizzl....The guy in orange is the 2 hander.
Question: How good of an idea to use Monica Seles as a model for stroke production? When I watch her old matches on YouTube, I am struck by the extent to which she generates pace by (among other things) pushing off her back foot. Unless she is on a full stretch, she has a dramatic push off almost every time. How advisable is this? It obviously worked for her, but I wonder if it might wear you out after a while.
Not specific to her ability to take balls earlier, generate good momentum through both footwork and body angular momentum that two hands helps contribute to, the fact that if you work a two-handed forehand stroke within the proper mechanics, it is significant, I've found, in developing a more advanced forehand foundation in terms of stroke mechanics, balance, footwork intent, and topspin acquisition for a majority of players.
Having taught the stroke for over 20 years, (and having taught tennis for a total of 35 years), I've seen the difference in how players who are taught the two handed forehand develop into better players on the forehand side as a whole, even those who evolved this two-handed foundation into a one-handed forehand.
I've done many articles on the subject so I'll end by saying that having taught thousands of players, around a 100 who became ranked either division, state, nationally, or world-ranked, I've seen how both teaching approaches work and can say objectively, those taught a two-handed forehand gain a more fundamentally sound forehand as well as being able to hit a repeatable, reliable stroke more on command than conventionally taught players.
Found something very nice
Some video of Bartoli's forehand. Not that great,but considering that there are barely any out there its pretty good.
Coach for 2HFH in Houston
Not having noticed this thread, I posted one asking about a pro who is experienced at teaching the 2HFH.
I'm a former 4.5 player who hasn't played for 10 years because of some foot issues which I think are at long last better and want to try again, maybe limiting my play to doubles to start with.
I have a 2 handed backhand (2 eastern forehand grips) which was almost immediately better for me when I switched in 1982, perhaps in part because I am fairly ambidextrous. I have never been fully happy with my forehand, probably when I was playing my best, I would hit mostly moderately heavy looping topspin FH, slicing when hitting at extremes of reach. What bothered me the most was not having a reliable forehand "kill" shot on those high bouncing short or midcourt balls.
I'm a big fan of good coaching, so as I say in the subject line, I am looking for a coach here in the Houston area. Dave Smith mentioned Scott Adams, but I can't seem to find contact information for him.
Dave, mentions older folks (I am 63, 6'4", 220, in good health, but not as flexible as I used to be) doing well with the 2HFH, but does my lesser flexibility cause any problems with this stroke?
I'm also interested in more discussion about what type of racket, racket weight, string pattern, and tension suit this game best.
ben1948, as to racket selection, let me say that I'm shorter than you and 3 years older, and I have been very satisfied with the Prince EXO3 Red 105. For the benefit of a 2HFH, it is slightly longer at 27.25" and slightly larger with a headsize of 105 sq. in. It is also relatively light at a strung-weight of 10.4 oz. whch facilitates the wrist suppination-pronation phase of the stroke.
ben1948, I forgot to add that the racket has a 16 x 19 string pattern, which I string with Prince Synthetic gut at 55 lbs.
How important is arm-swing on the 2HFH? The reason I ask is that, after about a year of practicing, I find the key to the stroke to be suppination of the bottom wrist, pronation of top wrist then just the reverse at the moment of ball contact. In effect, I'm punching, rather than stroking, the ball.
The sequence for a right-hander is (1) racket back; (2) surround ball; (3) bend knees; (4) suppinate right wrist-pronate left wrist; (5) suppinate left wrist-pronate right wrist; and (6) finish stroke with racket up and toward left shoulder.
Is this technique acceptable?
My new 2 handed forehand. Had arm problems (surgery etc.) and consistency issues with the one handed forehand. Now have neither thanks to this thread and hours of hitting against a school wall for two months this winter. Also bought Dave Smith's book which actually covers the stroke... The video is of me hitting cooperatively with a friend at less than half speed. Please comment. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JeEnKZm_2IM
Gilly, I love the fluid stroke patterns on your 2hfh as well as the complementary aspects to your 2hbh. You are a great role model to demenstrate how smooth and nearly effortless the shot can be hit. And I know you are only hitting at half speed, if that. I'll bet you can crank the shot as needed with a lot of spin as well as angles when you need it as well as penetrating pace too.
I hope my book was helpful in your development and you continue to play with even more effective strokes as you play longer with the shot.
How long did you say you have been hitting it? You look very comfortable and stable with the most important element: "A repeatable, reliable swing path" accomplished very clearly in your strokes.
Best wishes on continued pain-free play and success!
The two handed forehand should not be a punch. Look at Gilly's strokes above and I think you will see a great example of hitting the two-handed forehand with fluid consistency and that power will almost automatically come through confidence. The 2hfh should be very close to a conventional one-handed forehand in most aspects.
Thanks so much Dave. I started practicing it in January after looking at videos on youtube that was found on this thread. Then began to use it in doubles matches in February. I really didn't get to hit it that often as I am always at the net. In May I used it in singles matches and really started getting consistent and confident with it. Much more so then my ex-one handed fh. hehe And you are right, I can really amp it up when needed as long as I stay balanced and have the proper foot work. (Like every other stroke in tennis I guess)
Anyway, am having a blast with it as it has elevated my game tremendously, not to mention I am able to play free of pain. Or as pain free as a 50 year old can be playing 5x a week. :0
Thanks for sharing the videos.
No problem SoBAd. I hope it helps someone who is thinking about using the 2hbh. It can be learned in pretty quickly.
]No problem SoBAd. I hope it helps someone who is thinking about using the two handed FOREHAND I meant. It can be learned pretty quickly.
Not bragging, but showing what confidence in your strokes can do.
When I was last using a one-handed forehand in July(?) of 2011, I was hovering around/slightly under .500 in my local club's 2.5 singles league.
Less than a year later, I won the entire city (Dallas-Ft Worth) championship in 3.0 LeagueTennis singles. Moving up to 3.5 next season. I get so many compliments on my "backhand" which is actually my forehand.
What racket and string setup are you all using if don't mind sharing
I have a Prince TT Warrior OS leaded up to about 12.0 oz (almost all of it in the handle) strung. Before that, I used the Yonex RDiS 300. I was satisfied with the old racquet, but the Warrior is exactly as its name suggests. A beast. AND CHEAP!
Sadly, it looks like TW has finally run out of stock of this decade-old frame. Maybe some more will come along soon, because it's pretty perfect for me.
I'd like to hit with the Prince Original Graphite OS or one of the Pure Drive +'s, just to see how they compare to my current frame; they seem well suited to the 2HFH.
As far as string goes, I use Gamma Zo Tour 16 at about mid-tension. I've experimented with other polys, but this is the one I always go back to.
Coaching Mastery, you're right: the 2HFH should not be a "punch." After looking at Gilly's video, I realized that I follow-through the same way he does. Let's just say that I "punch-through" the ball at contact. The supination-pronation (and then the reverse process) gives the ball its pace. I always finish with my arms extended. Going cross-court, I will often hit the 2HFH flat; going down the line, I use top-spin to get up and over the higher part of the net..
Excellent hitting strategy! I hope other 2hfh players will post here. It is growing in popularity and success across the board...and, considering the number of reticent and ignorant (or closed mined) pros who won't even learn the stroke as a possible learning tool...let alone finding the huge weapon that the two-handed forehand can be, there are a relatively high number of players using it. (Especially in Asia and Europe!)
Thanks for your post and letting us know your own experiences! Good luck and continued success to you and those who have posted similar notes here!
Question: On your 2HFH and (I'm assuming) 2HBH, what would you say is the dominant hand for each shot?
For me, a righty, the right hand is the dominant hand for both. The forehand is more of a forehand and the backhand more of a backhand. When I try to hit my 2HBH as "left-handed forehand with the right hand there for support" as I've heard to do by some coaches, it ends up being stiff and uncoordinated. Focusing on the right hand pulling the racquet instead of the left hand pushing it works so much better for me.
If you're asking me, I hit a one-handed backhand and a two-handed forehand.
My 2-handed forehand is a weapon, but it doesn't even compare to my 2-handed serve!
Lovely Bone, you may jest about the two-hand serve, but I played in a tournament in 1987 in Crisfield, Maryland where a participant actually served with two hands.
I bet mine is better.
I use a ProKennex Kinetic 7g with Babolat VS Team gut. I string them at 57 lbs.
I am demoing a couple of racquets here shortly (two are not in stock at the moment, so I'm just waiting for those), but that is one of the racquets I'm trying. The others being the Pure Drive GT +, the Wilson Juice Pro BLX and the Prince Original Graphite OS.
I like my current racquet and am really only demo-ing these out of boredom/curiosity. But I will report back how they stack up for my 2HFH. All are extended except for the Prince.
I would love for TW to get more of the Prince Graphite Longbodies in stock. I'd snatch one or two of those up in a heartbeat. My doubles partner uses the Prince Graphite EXO3, and it is really stable, solid racquet. Hitting that thing in the sweetspot feels like heaven. I'd love a longer version of that, which is what the Longbody would appear to be.
Just throwing it out there, but I was skimming though Tennis Mastery and found a helpful tip intended for the 2HFH. It actually has helped me more on my backhand, but it works for both. The idea that you should keep your front elbow tucked in close to your body on your backswing.
Doing this, I've found that I automatically get more/better backswing, gives me more leverage and keeps me from just "arm-ing" the ball. I tend to do that more on the backhand side than the forehand side.
On another note, I played with the racquets that I mentioned in my previous post. I was shocked to find that my favorite was the Wilson Juice Pro. The Pure Drive was way too light/hollow feeling, the Prince Graphite Oversize felt pretty amazing on groundstrokes but was too heavy for me to serve effectively with, the 7g was decent, but the Wilson felt right. I might pick one of those up once they go on clearance in a year or so.
I also demoed the now out-of-stock Yonex RQiS 1 Tour XL at my local pro shop. Now THAT is a racquet. With overgrips and everything, it weighs about 12 oz, but it is so headlight, that it swings like an 11 oz. And it's a really nice looking racquet as well. The one potential drawback is the 95 sq. inch headsize. Though I didn't find myself shanking too many more balls than I normally do with my 107 in Prince TT Warrior.
Brian 11785, if you use a 2HFH, you might consider playing with the Prince EXO3 Red 105. It is 27.25 " long for extra reach, with a 105 sq. in. head for a bigger sweet spot. It has done wonders for my 2HFH.
That is actually my mixed doubles partner's racquet. She seems to like it. Seems like a good compromise racquet.....large sweetspot and a bit of power without discouraging good technique like a lot of alleged "game improvement" racquets.
I've actually never hit with it. I like a little bit heavier racquet, so I could see myself playing with it, after I've added about an ounce of lead to the handle. :-|
Coaching Mastery - I think all coaches should be open to having players hit 2 handed forehands. Many of the kids I teach naturally do it and I encourage and support it when this is the case. I even have a couple who hit 2 handed forehand off both sides. That is they switch the hands round between forehand and backhand. Both of these kids are very naturally talented and pretty ambidextrous. The parents of one of the kids keep suggesting I stop him from switching his hands to hit his backhand (really left handed 2 handed forehand) but I am telling them to let him stick with it for now as he hits a great ball with it and does the hand switch so seamlessly most don't even notice.
Whether they stick with 2H FH or not it is a great start as it promotes the unit turn and core rotation through the forward swing.
Does anyone know a player that plays with a two-handed forehand but one-handed backhand (doesn't have to be a pro just wondering)
My bad, didn't see that
Brian, yes, the key position point of the front arm's elbow staying close to the body through the contact window does several things and prevents some other problems that I've seen with those who teach to lead out with this elbow.
First, on both wings, it provides a stable point of angular rotation, a 'piviot point' if you will. This makes the swing very repeatable.
Second, this action increases the speed of the stroke taking it from the "linear" aspect of a swing, (which many people could say "pushing" the stroke), to a more angular swing.
Third, it keep the flying "chicken wing" action of this arm from occuring.
Fourth, it increases topspin and allows the other arm to accelerate the swing.
Fifth, it is pretty much what most all top players do on their two-handed backhand and forehands. (There are some variations as to how close and how long the elbow stays close.)
The one caution is to make sure the other arm indeed drives out and up and across so that the player doesn't cramp their swing which often happens when players don't use the other arm correctly. If taught to use the opposite arm correctly, players will find as you have, that the front elbow staying in provides some real key aspects to developing either shot into a consistent weapon.
Thanks for sharing your experiences!
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