Old pro tour, win-loss-stats

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by urban, Jul 15, 2014.

  1. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    pc1, Back problems in 1972 or 1973? You just have written about back problems in the 1972 Dallas final. But I'm glad you corrected yourself.
     
    #51
  2. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    urban, Thanks for clarifying the 1972 Dallas "mystery". Laver won the last tournament before the WCT finals and beat Newcombe in the first round of the finals 6-4,6-4,6-4. Also one cannot see any health problems of Laver when watching the Dallas summary.

    Laver lost the 1972 final (which he almost had won at 5:4 in the deciding tie-break) not because of health problems but because of a fatal wrong decision: he twice served to Rosewall's backhand...
     
    #52
  3. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I think, he would do it again. He also won a lot of matches by serving to Rosewall's backhand. Two matchpoints i can remember are in the 1967 Wim pro final and the 1969 RG final. I think, for any player the backhand is the weaker side. Maybe Laver served not well enough.
     
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  4. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Urban,

    I didn't know either until today when Dan wrote about it and you wrote that Laver had some problems earlier. My first thought was that it started until 1973 until today. I suppose I can understand considering how far Laver bent his back on some serves.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
    #54
  5. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Read the remarks carefully. I never wrote the back problems affected Laver in the WCT final. I was just commenting that injuries like back problems occur more often in older players. And I commented that I used to think it was 1973 when he first had the problems?

    It's funny but you misspelled a number of words the other day including Sampras' name but I didn't correct you.
     
    #55
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It didn´t seem to me he had any back trouble during those finals.I maybe wrong but that is my impression.

    In any case, a phenomenal victory for Muscles ( whom Laver also called Pockets)
     
    #56
  7. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    I didn't think so either when I saw the match. But like I wrote earlier, you never can tell. Laver won Wimbledon with a bad wrist and Borg won Wimbledon with a torn stomach muscles.

    Until Dan and Urban wrote of Laver's back problems prior to 1973, I was surprised.
     
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  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    urban, Yes, Rod said after the match (which was his worst disappointment of his career) that he would serve again to Ken's backhand. I just wonder why. At that time Rosewall's forehand was a bit declined and inconsistent whereas his backhand was still superb. As you know the backhand was Rosewall's stronger side.

    I did not see that Laver's serves were not well. But Rosewall produced two of his greatest backhand shots ever that still are legendary.
     
    #58
  9. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I dispute that FH must be stronger than BH

    BH is a more natural shot.
     
    #59
  10. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    pc1, I did read your remarks carefully (as I always do). You never wrote that the back problems affected Laver in the WCT final but you clearly referred in this (=the same) sense to Dan's clear claim. I'm sure your readers have recognized your words as I have done.

    I don't see that you referred to 1973 as the FIRST year Laver had the problems in the same post, only in your following post.

    Why should you correct misspelled words? If someone writes nonsense, please fee free to correct it, or if a poster like kiki does not know the correct spelling of Butch Buchholz or is too arrogant to bother about the right name. Of course I know how Pete's name is correctly spelled.
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2014
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  11. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    I have no stats of the match of course but I think Laver did not serve well generally in the match. However I have seen the two great backhand returns by Rosewall and Laver hit two fine serves in that situation.
     
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  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    kiki, Most players have yet a stronger forehand but there were some top players with a stronger backhand: Apart from Rosewall Emerson, Stolle, Ashe, Connors, Vilas...
     
    #62
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    and some others like Kodes,Orantes,Edberg,Agassi,Trabert,Kovacs,Budge ( one of the all time greats)...I posted in a thread that the 70´s were the era of BH ( consider also Goolagong,Evert,Austin) and the 80´s leaned clearly more towards FH.
     
    #63
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    pc1, Here I agree with you. It's reported that Laver served more double faults than usual and less first serves.

    Thanks for your fairness regarding the last two points of Dallas 1972.

    I think that Laver was a bit erratic in that match. It was strange that he lost a set 0-6 which he never did against Rosewall elsewhere as far as I know. He seldom did against any player if at all.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2014
    #64
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    kiki, Yes, it's astonishing how many players were great at the backhand.
     
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  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    When I played junior league tennis, and even later on ( while still young enough), the BH was a shot that would come more natural to me.Not just baseline, even at the net.

    The explanation is that BH you make an inside-outside arm stretching while Fh is more the opposite.
     
    #66
  17. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Kiki,

    While the backhand may be considered a more natural shot by some, the forehand is generally the power stroke off the ground. Think about it, if you put pressure on back of the hand, it bends back more easily than if you pressure the palm of the hand and put back. Also forehands are better equipped to handle high shots and kick serves. Of course there are exceptions like Laver, Ashe, Edberg and Rosewall.

    There is nothing more fun than hitting a huge backhand topspin winner however.
     
    #67
  18. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    kiki, You use similary words as Ken Rosewall. But in my own case I struggled for many years to get a backhand shot just over the net...
     
    #68
  19. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I still think, that in absolute terms of power and consistency, the forehand side of every player is better, no matter how great his backhand is. That has nothing to do with the fact, that those players mentioned had great backhands. I have no exact stats, but i think, that at least two thirds of all serves, especially second serves are directed to the backhand side. I have seen full matches of Rosewall, like the Sydney final 1970 and the Smith Wim semi in 1974, where his forehand return was more effective than the backhand return. Another factor is the lefty serve, On crucial points, a lefty would direct his serve in most cases to the wide out backhand side of the righthander, it is his best type of serve. Take McEnroe-Borg for example: Mac knew that Borg had a fine backhand return, especially the sharp cross court return. And yet, in crucial situations, he would play all serves to the backhand. Borg knew this coming, and Mac knew: If i serve well, and Borg misses the return or gets it longline, i win the point with the serve or play the volley of the longline return into open court. If he hits a difficult cross court winner, than it was just too good. So was the mp at Wim 1980, but still Mac went to the backhand, when he faced breakpoints at Wim 1981.
     
    #69
  20. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    urban, I also possess the 1974 Wimbledon SF Rosewall/Smith but I have the impression that Muscles succeeded more with his bh return. But I will watch it once more. At least the most spectacular return shots were backhand cross shots.
     
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  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is where your Rosewall passion comes from?:)
     
    #71
  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    the reason lefty go against Bh is because it is where a lefty sliced serve will land.and it is ad out.Simple as that.
     
    #72
  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You are right yet it is balanced by Bh being a more natural shot.AAMOF, the FH maybe more consistent when it is attacked, I do agree, but the natural swing of the BH lets some players generate more power off it.You named Ashe, that is a good example.Myself would be another.

    I like flat strokes not top spin, yet top spin is required for defensive purposals mainly
     
    #73
  24. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Not ridiculous.

    March would have called this event the "U.S. Pro" if he could have.

    He couldn't.
     
    #74
  25. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    "Best match of Open era"?

    Outrageous hyperbole.

    Newcombe/Smith Wimbledon 1971, and Davis Cup 1973, were better.
     
    #75
  26. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Laver would not complain, just as Hoad did not complain about his back affecting the 1956 Forest Hills final.
     
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  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    Dan, tell it to Bud and the other experts!
     
    #77
  28. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Would Bud listen?

    Bud has his favourites.
     
    #78
  29. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    Dan, By the way, Gianni Clerici and Judith Elian also chose the 1972 WCT Final which of course should be better than the 1971 Wimbledon final because Laver and Rosewall are better players than Newcombe and Smith.
     
    #79
  30. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Sorry, Bobby, I am laughing.

    In 1972?

    No, Newcombe and Smith were tops in that period.
     
    #80
  31. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Delete. Double post.
     
    #81
  32. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Nastase was pretty good also at that time.
     
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  33. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    .............................................................
     
    #83
  34. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Yes, but no Wimbledon title for Nastase.
     
    #84
  35. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    True enough but he did win the US Open in 1972 over Ashe.
     
    #85
  36. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Nastase was jinxed against Smith, and had a weaker major record than Newk.
     
    #86
  37. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Nastase was jinxed against Smith, and had a weaker major record than Newcombe.

    No Wimbledon, no Davis Cup.

    I do not rate the Masters as a major.
     
    #87
  38. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    No doubt you're right.

    Dan, since we're discussing Nastase, everyone knew how super gifted he was. I'm just curious about your opinion on who are the most talented players in history. I assume Hoad's number one of course by who are some others.

    Of the past players I would say McEnroe, Connors, Borg, Laver, Ashe, Tilden, Kramer, Rosewall, Nastase, Leconte, Mecir, Kovacs, Hoad (of course) and Vines.
     
    #88
  39. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    Laughing Dan,

    Bud Collins ranked in 1972:

    1 Smith
    2 Rosewall
    3 Nastase
    4 Laver

    6 Newcombe

    Lance Tingay ranked:

    1 Smith
    2 Nastase
    3 Rosewall
    4 Laver

    6 Newcombe

    For 1971 I rank Smith, Newcombe and Rosewall tied No.1
     
    #89
  40. President

    President Legend

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    No Sampras or Lendl?
     
    #90
  41. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Forgot about them. Yes they should be there for pure talent. Probably forgot a number of players.
     
    #91
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Excellent points
    After all those debates I finally came up with a number one for 71
    Stan Smith
    You know what made me decide?
    His final at the Masters
    Second is Rosewall
    Third is a tie between Kodes and Newcombe
    What an excepcional year!!!!
    I doubt so much that any 50's pro season even got close
     
    #92
  43. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    kiki, Smith lost that final. He beat just lesser players to reach it.

    Rosewall was 1:0 in hth against Smith.

    I still rank Smith, Rosewall and Newcombe tied No.1.
     
    #93
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    FH and a W and Masters final vs
    AO,WCT and W sf
    Newk won W and Phily
    Kodes won RG and reached F at FH and Rome
    Any of the 4 can be number one but Smith also won Dc over Nastase,so is my final pick
     
    #94
  45. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    For 1970 to 1975, I have

    1. Newcombe
    2. Connors
    3. Smith
    4. Nastase
    5. Rosewall
    6. Ashe

    Rosewall makes the top 5.
     
    #95
  46. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    In order,


    Hoad
    Gonzales
    Laver
    Budge
    Tilden
    Vines
    Federer
    Sedgman
    Rosewall
    Sampras
    Borg

    Shortlist,

    Kramer
    Trabert
    Ashe
    Newcombe
    McEnroe
    Connors
    Nastase
    Djokovic
    Nadal


    I should probably include R. Williams, Lacoste, and Crawford in the talent shortlist.
    All three had their careers shortened by injury or asthma.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2014
    #96
  47. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Kovacs is one player who could not focus his great talent in majors.

    Even Nastase had a better record in majors.
     
    #97
  48. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    I realize I forgot to include Gonzalez. Wow, that's an awful mistake.:shock:
     
    #98
  49. pc1

    pc1 G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks Dan. Nice list.
     
    #99
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Legend

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    Dan, It might be of interest that Steve Flink in World of Tennis yearbooks made a comparison 1970 to 1975 considering the balances of every great of that period vs the other greats at big events.

    His ranking goes:

    1 Rosewall
    2 Connors
    3 Nastase
    4 Laver
    5 Newcombe

    I find it astonishing that a 35 to 40 (41) years old player was the leading player for that 6 years period.

    Even more astonishing: Rosewall is also No.1 for the 1971 to 1976 period, ahead of again Connors and Nastase...

    I believe these "World Comparisons" facts should be considered for the GOAT discussions.
     

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