Old thread about Nastase

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Tennis old man, Apr 9, 2008.

  1. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    I saw this in TT archive.
    I think is pretty interesting:
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    Nastase's 15th title in 1973



    Hops

    Most references cite Nastase with 15 titles in 1973, e.g.

    http://www.tennisfame.org/enshrinees/ilie_nastase.html

    "His finest season was 1973, when he was regarded as No. 1 in the world after winning the Italian, French, and l3 other tournaments, and downing Tom Okker in the Masters final, 6-3, 7-5, 4-6, 6-3. That season he won 15 of 31 tourneys on a 118-17 match record"

    ATP site lists 14 titles:

    Barcelona (April)
    Barcelona (October)
    Calgary
    Cincinnati
    Florence
    Gstaad
    London
    Madrid
    Monte Carlo
    Omaha
    Paris
    Roland Garros
    Rome
    Masters

    anyone know what the 15th title was?

    In the book 'Nastase' by Richard Evans, 1978, they cite two further titles for 1973, Merryfield and Istanbul, and 3 runner up: Hampton, Dewar Cup and Bristish Hard Court..

    Hops

    thanks ... just to give you an idea what I'm doing -

    most are familiar with 'official' list of most Open Era titles:

    109 Connors
    94 Lendl
    77 Mac
    64 Sampras
    62 Borg
    62 Vilas
    60 Agassi
    57 Nastase

    However if you look on the ATP site all the 70s-80s players have missing titles - Jimbo 105; Mac 76; Borg 57. These are usually Pepsi Grand Slam/WCT Challenge Cups - very small invitationals with 4-8 players.

    Nastase the same - listed with 52, but add

    1970 Salisbury pro indoor (per HOF site)
    1976 Honolulu WCT CC
    1976 Las Vegas WCT CC (Pepsi)
    1978 Montego Bay WCT CC

    up to 56. So looking for final Nastase title, was one short in 1973 ... I only needed one, not two! :|

    Couldn't find any reference to 'Merryfield' ... Istanbul titles are here:

    http://www.tedclub.org.tr/eng/tedopenwinnerlist.asp

    except that ATP only recognizes Dowdswell title in 1975 - it became a challenger at some point - and if I take both Istanbul titles (1971/73) that puts Nastase over 57 - and that's not even taking into account this:

    http://www.momas.ro/turism/Romsite/bekende_sport.htm

    what's with all those 1968/69 titles? were they all amateur or ... ?

    The earlier one goes back into 1970s, the murkier it gets.


    Would appreciate advice on what Bud Collins and other encyclopedias show on this topic (ATP titles in general, for all players).



    urban
    Yes, Hops, because i did a little research for this part of tennis history, i know the difficulties very well. As i posted before, the best books on that subject are for the pre open pro game Joe McCauley, History of Professional Tennis, 2001, and Michel Sutter, Winners-Vainqueurs 1946-1991, Paris 1992. I think Nastase was official amateur until 1973 and played the ITF Grand Prix Circuit and the weak Riordan circuit (since 1972) in those years. His amateur status made him always eligible to Davis Cup. In the first years of open tennis there were contract pros (NTL and WCT, who merged in 1970) who could not play Davis Cup until 1973, licensed players and still official amateurs. There were few open tournaments, pro tournaments and since 1970 Grand Prix and WCT tournaments (where the lot of the best players played). On the ATP webside the tournaments and match results are not complete. I can track for Laver for instance 11 titles in 1968, 18 (some count 17) in 1969 and 13 in 1970. I cannot understand why the ATP doesn't count at least the open tournaments like the South African Open, the British Covered Court open or the US pro at Boston. They even have not the very first open- the British HC at Bournemouth in 1968, which Rosewall won.



    urban
    On that Istanbul question. In the cited Sutter's book i found:
    30.7.1973 Istanbul: Nastase-Gisbert (Spain) 62 36 63 62.



    Hops
    On that Istanbul question. In the cited Sutter's book i found:
    30.7.1973 Istanbul: Nastase-Gisbert (Spain) 62 36 63 62.

    thnx Urban


    Moose

    hops, according to wikepedia, some of these title counts are low. the atp website says that Borg won his 1st pro title in '74, but wikepedia says it was 1973 Helsinki.

    also I came across many results on the itf website that aren't on the atp site. You have Pancho Gonzales' open era title count on your site as 3, on the itf site I found at least 2 more titles.


    Andres Guazzelli
    Most of them played tournies, but not ATP Tour official tourneys.

    For example, Vilas, in 1977, won 17 titles (one unofficial) and his streak was 50 matches (4 unofficial), and that's why the record is Borg's with 49, followed by Vilas' 46.

    urban
    You are right Andres, but the term 'ATP official tournament' has some irony in it. The ATP was a players union in those days, founded by people like Newcombe and Drysdale, who where playing the WCT circuit. The didn't have own tournaments, with a few exceptions (since 1974 they had the event at Tucson or Indian Wells)or sanction events. They simply need to review their webside. On smaller tournaments, thex are not consistent. They count for instance the Pepsi Grand Slam for Borg (with a 4 or 8 men field), but not the Rye tournament for Vilas, which would give him the cited streak of 50. Also in Vilas case the definitions of surfaces are not true. He couldn't have gotten artithmetically a clay streak of 53, if some summer US tournaments were hard, as given by the webside. The must have been har tru, which is clay.


    Moose Malloy
    urban, do you know who Borg beat to win Helsinki in '73? what was the surface? can't find the result at itf website.



    urban
    Michel Sutter, whom i cited in the thread above, has a Borg win 4/02/1973 at Helsinki over an unknown (Pole) Niedzwicki. Must be on carpet indoors, because of the arctic temperature in Finnland. I assume, that was a minor event, comparable to a satellite tournament today.


    Hops
    hops, according to wikepedia, some of these title counts are low. the atp website says that Borg won his 1st pro title in '74, but wikepedia says it was 1973 Helsinki.

    also I came across many results on the itf website that aren't on the atp site. You have Pancho Gonzales' open era title count on your site as 3, on the itf site I found at least 2 more titles.

    as urban notes the farther you delve back into early 1970s the murkier it gets as to what is an 'official' tournament. should stuff like pepsi-challenge really count? and of course back then WCT was separate tour entirely; imagine if today Fed and Nadal played on different tours and only could meet at slams (and maybe not even then if slam bans Fed from entering because he plays WTT)

    Wikipedia has some excellent articles attempting to account for everything (is that your doing urban)

    Check out Rosewall's entry, e.g. Very comprehensive.


    Moose Malloy
    as urban notes the farther you delve back into early 1970s the murkier it gets as to what is an 'official' tournament.

    True, but I believe that the itf website only has legitimate tournament results.

    Gonzales won the 1969 & 1971 WCT Las Vegas events in addition to the 3 events listed on the atp site, you should change his total title count on your site.

    here is a list of the 1970 season, with far more results available than the atp website:

    http://www.itftennis.com/mens/tournaments/tournamentsearch.asp


    Gizo
    Apologies for bumping up an old thread and skewing the subject slightly, but virtually every source apart from Borg's regular profile on the ATP website credit him with 62 titles (the ATP even contradict themselves because on their legends section,http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/legends/borg.asp, they state a total of 62).

    Here are the 61 titles that the ATP are crediting him with:
    1974 - Adelaide, Bastad, Boston, London WCT, Roland Garros, Rome, Sao Paulo WCT;
    1975 - Barcelona, Bologna WCT, Boston, Richmond-WCT, Roland Garros;
    1976 - Boston, Dallas WCT, Dusseldorf, Sao Paulo WCT, Toronto Indoor WCT, Wimbledon;
    1977 - Barcelona, Basel, Cologne, Denver, Madrid, Memphis, Monte Carlo WCT, Nice, Pepsi Grand Slam, Wembley, Wimbledon;
    1978 - Bastad, Birmingham WCT, Las Vegas, Milan WCT, Pepsi Grand Slam, Roland Garros, Rome, Tokyo Indoor, Wimbledon;
    1979 - Bastad, Las Vegas, Masters, Monte Carlo, Montreal / Toronto, Palermo, Pepsi Grand Slam, Richmond WCT, Roland Garros, Rotterdam, Tokyo Indoor, Wimbledon;
    1980 - Las Vegas, Masters, Monte Carlo, Nice, Pepsi Grand Slam, Roland Garros, Stockholm, Wimbledon;
    1981 - Geneva, Roland Garros, Stuttgart Outdoor

    Does anyone know what the mysterious 62nd title was, that everyone else is crediting him with.


    CyBorg
    Borg actually won 77 singles titles - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Björn_Borg .. scroll down a bit .. but the ATP recognizes 61 of them, not 62 (62 appears to be a mistake on their part).

    I believe this is all of them. I wish I could find the exact scores somewhere for the 16.


    CyBorg

    List of Auckland winners:

    http://www.atptennis.com/en/tournaments/profile/301.asp

    It's interesting that the list begins at 1975. Borg was the winner in '74. Perhaps this is the title that the ATP can't decide whether not recognize or not.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
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  2. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    CyBorg
    Another link to Auckland history: http://www.heinekenopen.co.nz/3/history/

    It should count.



    Gizo
    Thanks a lot for the info CyBorg. The ITF website mention 62 titles, but they miss out his 1977 Pepsi Grand Slam title (despite mentioning the fact that he won this event from 1978-1980). They say that he won the tournament at Johannesburg in 1977 (that is dubious as the final between Vilas and him was never played, and they also credit Vilas with this title when no-one else does), and unlike the ATP, they credit him with his title at the WCT Challenge Cup in Montreal in 1979, where he beat Gullikson and Connors to win the tournament.
    So I'm guessing that you are right and the 62nd title that websites like tennis28 are taking into account was his 1974 Auckland title, which was played on grass.



    CyBorg
    Just checked out the ITF site - thanks for mentioning it. It has his 1972 tournament info there, which I didn't have on me.

    CyBorg

    there is another contradiction :

    but according to his activity, he won the geneva tournament, held one week after the US open (destroying his future RG successor wilander 61 61 in the 1st round !) and also played tokyo (lost in the 2nd round).
    http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/playe...=Singles&selTournament=0&player=B058&x=15&y=7
    i've been wondering if the date indicated for the geneva tournament is really correct : it's rather surprising that the burned out borg played a tournament so early after this famous US open final... isn't it ?

    Borg wasn't really as burned out as some would claim. He actually wasn't as devastated by the defeat as he was a year earlier. He simply played like he barely cared - at a very high level but with less concentration.

    Borg had many breaking points - not one. He first showed frustration at the tennis masters in late-1980, early-1981. He lost to Sandy Mayer, bageled in one of the sets. Later in a match against McEnroe that he had to win in order to play the semi he uncharacteristically argued a line call, albeit quietly. He went on to win the match and the tournament. Regardless, he was clearly less motivated than before. The argument wasn't as much about frustration as it was aggravation.

    Then came the loss to Pecci at Monte Carlo. Borg's refusal to make it to many quasi-important tournaments (Philly, Dallas), taking much time off doing God knows what to himself between majors (most likely partying it up).
     
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  3. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    vive le beau jeu !05-23-2007, 01:19 AM
    Apologies for bumping up an old thread and skewing the subject slightly, but virtually every source apart from Borg's regular profile on the ATP website credit him with 62 titles (the ATP even contradict themselves because on their legends section,http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/legends/borg.asp, they state a total of 62).
    there is another contradiction :
    His left-handed nemesis, McEnroe, followed up on Wimbledon by beating Borg in a second successive U.S. Open final to take over the No. 1 ranking that the Swede had held in 1979 and 1980. That defeat, 4-6, 6-2, 6-4,6-3, effectively ended Borg’s career. He won only two more matches, reaching the quarters of Monte Carlo in 1982. Shortly after that he retired, having won 62 singles (of 88 finals) and four pro career doubles titles, including the Masters of 1979-80, and $3,655,751.
    but according to his activity, he won the geneva tournament, held one week after the US open (destroying his future RG successor wilander 61 61 in the 1st round !) and also played tokyo (lost in the 2nd round).
    http://www.atptennis.com/5/en/playe...=Singles&selTournament=0&player=B058&x=15&y=7
    i've been wondering if the date indicated for the geneva tournament is really correct : it's rather surprising that the burned out borg played a tournament so early after this famous US open final... isn't it ?
     
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  4. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    From what I saw here, about Borg, ITF count WCT Challenge Cup in 79 and WCT Invitational Salisbury in 80 and don't count Pepsi 77. ATP counts Pepsi but not the others mentioned here.
     
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  5. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    Agree with urban over Helsinki 73, a very minor event, like a satellite (challenger today).
    Awesome work by Sutter in his book, if you can please read it.
     
    Last edited: Apr 9, 2008
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  6. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    nastase titles

    Nastase had a win over connors in Washington on the riordan circuit,

    Nastase won 17 titles in 1973

    14 listed by atp; washington: istanbul ; and kingston played in dec '73 missed in the evans biography.

    never rely on the atp web site for total historical coverage.


    jeffrey
     
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  7. Tennis old man

    Tennis old man New User

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    Totally agree!

    Do you have the draws for that events (washington, istanbul, and kingston)?

    Thank you.
     
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  8. Tennisfan!

    Tennisfan! Rookie

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    Some of these are like "challengers" now, don't count.
     
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  9. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    nastase's win over connors is certainly no challenger event; the washington win is on the same circuit as Nastase's wins at Omaha.

    He beat gottfried at kingston in the final; a top 30 player.

    the istanbul win over Gisbert is a decent win. Gisbert was a top 50 player.


    jeffreyl
     
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  10. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Brian Gottfried?! I haven't heard that name in more than a few years.

    Brian Gottfried was a very good singles player: runner-up at 1977 FO to Vilas.
    He was also an excellent doubles player: won three GS doubles titles with Raúl Ramírez.
     
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
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  11. jeffreyneave

    jeffreyneave Rookie

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    gottfried was a top 30 player in 1973. I was quoting the quality of opposition based on their 1973 performances. gottfried's best years did not really start until 1975.

    jeffrey
     
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  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Nastase in 1973 was almost unbeatable, quite like the 1969 Laver, the 1974 Connors, the 1978 Borg or the 1984 JMac.
     
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  13. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    In '73 Nasty played like he meant it, or he really cared.

    Not like he did most of the time.
     
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  14. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Possibly, it was the only year he went all through with the mind focused on tennis.

    Another distraction factor for him was his divorce, which I think was around 1974/1975, when he was already done as a top player.In fact, his only major win after 73 was the 1975 Masters, where he played like old times Ilie, trouncing Borg into pieces in front of Borg´s homw crowd at Stockholm.
     
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  15. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Borg was still improving pretty quickly, though he was already a great player by 19 in 1975. At Wimbledon the next year though, he overwhelmed Nastase. I wonder if the heat and Borg's pace of play were too much for him? Borg clearly was in control of that match. The temperatures at Wimbledon were hot in 1976 and Borg won that title with losing a set. The courts were said to be playing quite fast. No other player has won Wimbledon without losing a set in the Open Era at least. So, I wonder if that previous defeat got his attention in a positive way.
     
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  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Borg improved fast and I think indoors was not his best surface, just as natural surfaces like clay or grass were.He outplayed Nasty in the 76 W F, just the same Nasty had done to him in the 75 Masters.A funny thing in the spring of 1976 was that Ilie was teaching Bjorn the misteries of hard serving in view of the oncoming Wimbledon...and Borg paid to him with that landslide.When it came about the business of winning, the nice and humble Swede was merciless...(Nastase must have damned 1000 times the day he staretd improving Borg´s serve).
     
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  17. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Lol Kiki. You know what that's interesting. It must have been largely due to Nastase AND Bergelin's teaching as well. See this clip about Borg's '76 run where Borg comments. It was during the summer of 1976 when Borg's serve really started to click. He practiced on a private court outside London with Bergelin. Bergelin said they worked about two hours a day on his serve quite a bit. Yet, I bet the Nastase input really helped him as well.

    http://video.yahoo.com/watch/1694418/5686082
     
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  18. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Great quote.I remember that " a star is bjorn" headtitle.Borg N1, that is a great vid on the old Wimbly days and those great rivalries with Nastase,Gerulaitis,Connors for the well described " money machine of tennis".That match against Gerulaitis, that must have been one of the best over 2 centuries, took place in that memorable Wimbledon centennial.Just brings back joyful memories...this was also the Wimbledon final vs Connors, where Jimmy was on the verge of a great comeback, and the last Wimbledon for Laver and the first for Mac.True tennis hsitory over a fortnight... and how great was seeing Ginny Wade winning the last great trophy a British player has won in front of the Quuen..this Wimbledon was a true fairy tale.
     
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  19. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I'm glad you like it Kiki. There are I believe seven parts to the video at that site above. It was a great time and it's no accident that it's been called a Golden Era.
     
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  20. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I think, Nastase coached the Swedish team prior to the DC final against CSSR in 1975. Maybe he taught Borg one or two things too many.
     
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  21. jean pierre

    jean pierre Semi-Pro

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    Gottfried was n°4 in 1977 !
     
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  22. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    brian is one of those underrated players, but he was a top guy during his peak years ( from 1975 to 1980) and one of the best doubles players of the decade.In addition to his FO F, he also reached the W SF and the USO QF, playing several Masters and WCT FInals as well.I think he also played a lot of Davis Cup for the USA.

    Had a great classic game, with a nice underspin BH, a solid FH and one of the best volleys of the tour.He also trained a lot, similar to Vilas.I specially like his classy doubles team with Ramirez, another player without any weakness , quick and creative.
     
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  23. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I always liked Bergelin´s protective, but also open attitude towards Borg.Seemed like a father for him, and Borg had complete trust in Lennart.Sometimes, he looked too overprotective, but he was a fine, calm, inteligent guy, who had also deep knowledge of the game and , of course, of Bjorn´s strengths and weaknesess ( relative)
     
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