Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by treblings, Dec 19, 2011.
Good for her to take a stand, hope some of the others are able to come forward so she is not alone.
Yeah, this. I mean, the age of the boys or girls involved really should come into play here. It's not at all the same a 10 year old than a 16 year old (one is not even a child).
I won't sign. Hewitt hasn't been convicted of anything. For all I know these women want money. Who knows? Maybe just some attention.
This begs the question...can a person really be safe against allegations from students. The only way is not to have anything to do with them. That means no teaching if you value everything you've worked to get. I don't trust kids. I make it a point never to be alone with them. It's too dangerous.
I'm gonna wait til Hewitt confesses or the proof is there.
I understand your point. But, to my knowledge, Hewitt hasn't denied the allegations either. That's a tacit admission.
^^ no, that's on the advice of counsel.
I don't know what counsel he's getting, but, he hasn't denied any of it, has he? Perhaps counsel thinks that a tacit admission is better than an express admission, or a demonstrably false denial.
i started this thread to inform posters here about the petition and developments in general.
i am drawn to this story because as a youngster i was a big fan of Hewitt/McMillan and once stood in line to get their autographs
haven´t signed the petition myself though, as i believe in the concept of innocent until proven guilty.
the big news is that Hewitt is obviously brought to court now.
throwing him out of the HoF always seemed like a substitution for not getting him in the courts
If thats the case, Bill Tilden needs to be removed too. Word is he did the same thing back in the early 1900s.
Another sex offender in the tennis world, According to Vincent Spadea's book "diary of a pro tennis player", was pete sampras' old serve coach..Just can't think of the guys name off the top of my head
Isn't Hewitt being accused of abusing 10 year old girls?. Not quite the same, IMO.
Pete Fischer. There is a thread about him here on TW. Sick. Sad.
You should read the whole thread and then consider editing your post!
wow, an article about the guy quoted fedace from here! surprising
Yes but I'm not sure, in this day and age, whether that matters. I believe there's a stigma attached even when you're innocent. Sort of like the police making you #1 suspect in your spouses disappearence.
Word is incorrect.
Bill Tilden solicited a teenage boy for prostitution..and made sexual advances on many young men and got caught. Only difference was Tilden went after underage men and not underage women. End of story.
Nope, that was not the only difference. Another difference was _how_ much underage. Yet another difference was offering money for sex outright (easily rejected by a teenager who is uninterested) versus seducing them by first creating a feeling of personal indebtedness -- by volunteering for the role of unpaid tennis coach and mentor (thereby taking advantage of the young person's ambition and love for the game).
True, I suppose. But Frank, just like many johns who target youths, Tildon probably taking full advantage of desperation and poverty and low self worth of minors to fulfil his sexual needs.
I like the misspelt name and the "probably" in your message. Talk about flogging a dead corpse.
I suspect that most of those youths already knew they were gay. This was after WWII, when jobs were plentiful. This was not about people needing food.
"In 2011, a six-month investigation by the Boston Globe disclosed allegations from several adult women who were coached as girls by Hewitt. The investigation was prompted by the revelations of former student Heather Crowe Conner in March 2011, who initially avoided naming Hewitt, although the information disclosed was enough to lead others to identify him. She claimed that, beginning in the 1970s, Hewitt sexually abused or harassed them when she was as young as ten years old. Interviews with contemporaries, in the United States and South Africa, indicated that there had been rumors about misconduct by Hewitt at the time of the alleged events. The South African Tennis Union investigated after 1992, but no legal action was ever taken against him. Hewitt has declined to comment on the reports.
The International Tennis Hall of Fame has formed a committee to review the sexual abuse allegations along with requests for his removal from the Hall. The Boston Globe's investigation and report of multiple victims has prompted the request and was followed up by a letter signed by 5 of his alleged victims asking for his removal from the Hall of Fame. To date no action has been taken. A November 2011 expose by HBO's Real Sports includes interviews with several alleged victims and makes a compelling case for Hewitt's innocence."
what´s the point of your post?
I would also like to see Margaret Court's name removed and the arena renamed.
I doubt either of us knows which of these prostitutes viewed themselves as gay. My point is broader. Minors who prostitute for money, do so for one or two reasons to which I alluded. Jobs which are plentiful for adult men, may not be for youths, especially after WW2 with both adult men and women competing. Kids are exploited and manipulated by adults and circumstance by virtue of the power and maturity differential between adults and minors. Bill Tilden did no less for sexual gratification. The impact of prostitution on a youth, and the impact of statutory ****/ molestation by a coach will be similar. One represents the anonymous, almost indifferent routine degradation of the minor. The other a more intimate but incestuous connection. Both destroy confidence, trust and self image.
Sure, as long as it's removal in no way attached to her expression of her religious, or political views on homosexuality, abortion, economic theory or a Prime Minister.
We liberals do not retaliate like that.
Too dumb to contemplate. These Hall of Fame listings reflect excellence on tour. Tennis achievements. I'm sure if we knew what people were really like - criminals or just plain obnoxious - we could find reasons to exclude them. Add their political views, race and sexuality and it just gets out of control. I remember when Russell Crowe was a dead certainty for another Oscar - for A Beautiful Mind as I recall - and some obnoxious comment on his part swung the vote against him. Now, either he was the best actor or he wasn't. Everything said he was. I detested Jimmy Connors in his early years but, if you were handing out an award for tennis excellence in 1974, it was his. If Bob Hewitt did what he is alleged to, let him face his accusers in court and be punished accordingly. But he earned his place in the Hall of Fame.
True.In hsitory, there is good and bad, but in sports achievements should be separated from personnal bad habits.Hewitt is one of the best ever doubles players and, of all of those I watched, he is top 3 or top 4.
Hewitt was/is a predator and used tennis to abuse his students .......it was a common fact Tilden was gay ( no one talked about it back then ) and from all indications from his ex students and protégés he never went after them. He had boy prostitutes and teenage lovers but he was never accused of going after his students like Hewitt has. Big big difference between the two - Hewwitt = scumbag
Speak for yourself!
You might want to check with the Hall of Fame on that one. As pointed out earlier in the thread, according their website, their eligibility criteria include:
You might think it's dumb to consider off-court behavior, but the Hall of Fame apparently considers it, or claims to.
Well, Ithin kit is important that these are only allegtions and that nothing has been taken to court and proven. Seems some folks here have taken it upon themselves to judge him, condemn him and rush to punish him. Yet where is the proof? It is a matter for the courts. Secondly, if the Hall of Fame is going to take on board issues of integrity and character OFF THE COURT, they are going to need to remove quite a few players.
Let's start with homosexuals, predatory and otherwise, who by definition indulge in practices still illegal in most of the world and punished by death to this day in many parts od the Islamic world. Hmmm, a Hall of Fame without Bill Tilden and Billie-Jean King.
Then, there are the drug users. Yes folks, use of illegal drugs is a crime so, just to pick one name, lets expel Vitas Gerulaitis.
Tax evasion - now ther's a beauty. Privileged athletes too greedy to even pay their tax. Let's audit the lot of them and see who is indulging in tax evasion and reclassify them by where they reside/pay tax. So, could it be that Bjorn Borg of Sweden gets expelled as Bjorn Borg of Monaco, tax evader.
And integrity and charcter? Well, Australians who remember a certain upstart pair of John McEnroe and Peter Fleming bodyshotting aging vets John Newcombe and Fred Stolle when on the brink of losing their US Open semi might think those pair unworthy of the Hall of Fame as well. Oh, and the use of foul language. I mean, how f**king impressive is that?
And what about general sexual irresponsibility and dissolute behaviour. Be honest, you would not want your kids carrying on like that, or used by 'celebrities' carrying on like that. So, who's left? I'm guessing not very many.
Mind you, if this happens, I want the Academy Awards and all music industry awards subject to the same rules. And we all know there won't be many left in those 'halls of fame' if that happens.
If Hewitt has a case to answer, let it be brought in court,judged andappropriate action taken.
Good post.Hope it sinks in.
"these are only allegtions"
That's what they are. The question is whether they are credible.
"and that nothing has been taken to court and proven."
Whether you are eligible for HOF membership is not a matter for the courts.
"Seems some folks here have taken it upon themselves to judge him, condemn him and rush to punish him. Yet where is the proof?"
That's why the HOF has to look into it.
"It is a matter for the courts."
The conditions the HOF sets for membership is not a matter for the courts. If you want to try to incarcerate Hewitt, that would be for the courts. If you want to sue him civilly, see the courts. Membership in the HOF -- that is for the HOF to decide.
"Secondly, if the Hall of Fame is going to take on board issues of integrity and character OFF THE COURT, they are going to need to remove quite a few players."
That would be up to them to set their standards. I don't think it necessary to go through each one you raised. If the HOF wants to exclude, for example, drug use then let it do so and inform it's members and the rest of the sport. I doubt that's happening. Does that mean they have to throw up their arms and ignore everything off court ? Nope. I strongly suspect that if the players, for example, were polled there would be near unanimity that sexual abuse of students (including ****) should make you ineligible.
It is not much of a case, at the end..Hewitt was just a great player in doubles, but he did clearly contribute to make his sport bigger, and he contributed in such a subtle way as the right court half of one of the best, if not the best, doubles team ever.
He must face justice for the harsh he´s given to many families...I don´t doubt about it.But let his accomplishments away.I never enjoyed a doubles team more than Hewitt-Mc Millie ( well, maybe Newc and Roche) and that will stay forever.
Same for Roscoe Tanner.Put him in jail again...but the memories of his 1970´s duels with Connors , Borg , Vilas, Gerulaitis just prove that true tennis fans will always have him in their hearts...as it should be.
you can always argue that nothing is proven yet.i understand that. i haven´t signed that petition myself because i believe in the principle of ´innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt´
but if you believe, that at least some of the accusations are true, than, to use your version of the english language, it is much of a case. we´re talking about young girls that were no older than 11 or 12 years when they were allegedly raped by hewitt. and other cases were actual intercourse didn´t happen or the girls were older or whatever.... that would be ´much of a case´
and saying he´s given harsh(times?) to many families reminds me of a certain comment one poster made about the Seles ´minor stabbing´
that would be a major understatement
It's not that a process can't be produced, with testimony and witnesses, and a nice group of well intentioned committee members and volumes of guidelines. But no HOF process can get near the truth, as long ass either criminal or civil matters are pending. The accused can't defend himself without compromising his defense in court. Hell, even subpoenaed witnesses appearing in front of Congress, are told to say virtually nothing by legal counsel. If one side has its hands tied, how fair can a process be? People will be drawn toward the inevitable conclusion every kangaroo court produces.
Treblings: " innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt´"
I certainly appreciate that when it involves someones liberty (though we are both at odds on this point with both Obama and Bush Jr Administrations as well as most Americans who don't seem to share the sentiment.)
But why would you think it appropriate for any fact finding proceeding ? It is not the standard used to resolve civil claims. Let alone a private group.
What about evidentiary rules. Which are obviously critical. Do you insist on the use of the rules of Criminal Procedure too ?
BT, I'll try a new one because I don't think my points (or yours) grow stronger with repetition.
We should drop the pretense that the choice is court system verse private group doing its own looking into it and then having only the recourse of ejecting him from the group.
There is no court proceeding if the HBO show was accurate. The SOL has run on criminal. They didn't mention civil but if it ran on criminal I would guess it did on civil.
So the real choice is HOF verse nothing.
"But no HOF process can get near the truth"
As opposed to the US criminal justice system ? Why pretend to be so naive with respect to one system and so cynical as to the other.
i don´t insist on anything. i just don´t want to sign that petition unless i´m totally convinced that he is guilty.
I didn't sign it either. How the heck do I know if he did it. I saw a TV show. People will sign anything.
i would like to see the matter resolved to a degree where everybody can be reasonably certain whether hewitt is guilty or innocent of the charges brought against him. everybody involved deserves that kind of a resolution.
if you read the petition and the remarks some people made, it is clear that they have already judged hewitt.
(Let the professionals do their work before we jump to any conclusions.)
I had to delete my post, because emotions would be too hard on me to keep quite and politically right.
I really don´t know how much freely one can explain himself and not be suspicious of anything...you know.
I have a month´s baby and I know what I could do in a case like that.
I´d just like Hewitt to be not guilty of that, just because he and Mc Millan were the most enjoyable and inteligent doubles pair that I can really remember of.
I´ve seen Fleming/Mac, Newk/Roche, Jarryd/Edberg and so many other doubles great teams, but nobody, absolutley nobody, played doubles like those southafricans.
But, in any case, if he is declared guilty, I´know for sure I wouldn´t like to have his ass...perfored as a duck´s ass in prision, as it happens with baby rapist.
The private system may tie one hand of the accused behind his back so that the truth will be slanted. The criminal and civil system ties one hand behind the back of both parties using the rules of evidence, discovery and court procedure.
Assuming you are correct, about the SOL on the civil and criminal matters but that may depend on the charges files for some 'sex crimes' there is not SOL and I am not sure what nationalities of all the alleged victims might be and what jurisdictions may be filed in, I have absolutely no problem with a private hearing. I recognise that the HOF has put a character standard in its criteria and that it may feel obliged to investigate in a way that the Tennis Coaching Assoc is not, considering he no longer actively coaches.
I have little confidence in any result a private system produces, because I have no clue what rules will be applied to the process or how much cooperation they may get without a power to subpoena. All we may be left with, is a 'where there's smoke there's fire' reasoning or its corollary "if it walks like a duck...' reasoning justifying an end result, or the committee bending over backwards not to 'convict', to overcompensate for innate shortcomings.
first of all and most importantly, let me congratulate you on your baby
i wish you and your family all the best luck
i would like bob hewitt to be innocent of these charges as well. i am hoping a court of law will clear the matter, so we know what really happened one way or the other.
bob hewitt and frew mcmillan are without a doubt my favourite doubles team of all time. i had the privilege of seeing them play live and a picture with both of their autographs hangs on a wall in my house to this very day.
that is probably the main reason why i started this thread and am looking for news on his case.
your former post angered me because you seemed to make light of the accusations and how they affected the alleged victims and their families.
i am glad you explained yourself clearly this time around and we even agree on how we feel about hewitt if he is guilty.
for me , english is a second language, and i suspect for you as well
that may have added to the misunderstanding
True.Thanks for your psot and your congratulations¡¡¡
I agree that some words may not have been accurate.
And I´d like very much that this issue had not happened, mainly because, as yourself, Hewitt and Mc Millan were real artist on court.I still remember how did they destroy the uo and coming team of Fleming and Mac ( " Fleetwood Mc"¡¡¡) at the 1978 Wimbledon final, possibly their last big win.
fleetwood mac haven´t heard that one before
i saw them at the vienna tournament in 77 and 78. most posters at tt were not even born then.
the ballkids used tennisrackets with some kind of fishing net to catch the balls.
at the end of one doubles match, frew mcmillan asked a ballkid to give him all six balls. he then asked another kid who stood on the other side of the centre court to hold up his racket with the net and hold it still.
we are talking about a distance of at least 50 metres here.
mcmillan than hit, without pausing, all the balls right in the middle of the ballkids net.
the whole audience gave him a standing ovation
i hope, bob hewitt is innocent, sadly i don´t believe it though.
Surely not 50 meters?
On a standard tennis court the distance from fence to fence is only 120 feet, not quite 40 meters.
well, it´s been a long time and you know how things can change in your memory.
Separate names with a comma.