On Which Side Do You Err?

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by TimothyO, Jan 10, 2012.

  1. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    When calling close shots on your side of the court do you err on the side of generosity or stinginess?

    I've noticed that some players, when not 100% certain of a shot, will unhesitatingly call their opponent's shot in. (That's me.)

    Others, even when hemming and hawing as to whether or not a shot was in, will call the shot out.

    I ask this because last night while practicing with my team there were a number of close shots as usual. I noticed that a few of us consistently called close shots in favor of an opponent and, if uncertain in any way, immediately called the shot in favor of an opponent. One woman (mixed doubles), after a long pause, finally said of one shot, "I guess it was out". Another said of a close shot, "On Sunday I would have called that out". :shock:

    So, on which side do you err when not certain of a shot?
     
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  2. ARON

    ARON New User

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    By default, the ball is in unless you see it otherwise. I go by this rule. Sometimes, if it's close, but out by a very small margin, I call it good anyways.
     
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  3. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

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    I'm pretty generous. I even call some of my own shots out when I've got a better view than my opponent (DTL shots and such).

    Funnily enough, I once got accused of hooking by Captain Hook himself (a guy from another club who makes tons of dodgy calls) on a ball that was about to set me up with an easy overhead. As if I need to hook someone when the ball is just going to sit up a few feet from the net for an easy smash.
     
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  4. AR15

    AR15 Professional

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    I'm too generous. After matches, if there are any spectators, they will often tell me that I gave away points from not calling balls that were out, "out".
     
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  5. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    I call it like I see it. If I don't see it, I call it in. If it is too close to be sure, it is in.

    That said, I think I do a crappy job of calling the baseline sometimes.
     
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  6. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    This statement expresses doubt and the ball should be considered good.

    Personally I call any ball i see clearly out as out even if it was only by a little ... the key word there though is "clearly" if its close and has enough pace that I couldnt "clearly" see it i just play it as if it were in. This is how the rules state you are supposed to play.

    "An official impartially resolves a problem involving a call, whereas a player is guided by the principle that any doubt must be resolved in favor of an opponent. A player in attempting to be scrupulously honest on line calls frequently will keep a ball in play that might have been out or that the player discovers too late was out. Even so, the game is much better played this way."
     
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  7. NJ1

    NJ1 Professional

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    I'm always generous. Also, the rules clearly state to give the benefit of the doubt to the opponent if unsure.
     
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  8. beernutz

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    Quoted for truth.

    The last social doubles match I played we got into a beef with a player on the other team when I played a ball on the back corner of the baseline that I thought was a couple of inches out but my partner clearly saw it out. It was a tight match and I didn't want it decided by a close call so I played the ball even though I was 100% sure it was out.

    However when my partner saw and called it out, I didn't want to cause a disagreement with him so I said that I too saw it out but was going play it anyway because it was so close. We were on har-tru and I could clearly see the ball mark which was beyond the baseline.

    One player on the other team who was serving on that point then started making sarcastic comments and exhibited body language as if I had just changed my opinion of the shot to match what my partner saw and was hooking them. No good deed goes unpunished.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2012
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  9. jc4.0

    jc4.0 Professional

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    The eternal thread of "in or out" lives on. We all think our calls are immaculate (although some have actually admitted to "cheating back", which is an abhorrent practice). And we've all been hooked a thousand times, whether opponents did it on purpose, or they need better specs.

    You know the official rule - 99% out is in. So this person's "Sunday" comment is way out of line. If you question your call for a split second, give up the point. And try to ignore your opponents' bad sportsmanship. Keep telling yourself, 'one lousy call won't cost me the match'.
     
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  10. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Hall of Fame

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    3 seasons 2 tournaments and I have had only one complaint about a call.

    and honestly I think the guy was more upset at himself for missing an easy overhead smash than he was unsure about the quality of my call.
     
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  11. Nuke

    Nuke Hall of Fame

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    I always start generous, and I'm sure I give away a few points on out balls. But if my opponent is calling out line balls, I'll start calling them closer.
     
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  12. tennisjon

    tennisjon Semi-Pro

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    I agree. I do the same. It makes the opponent think that you are a generous line caller. If they don't make good calls, well, then those out balls that I may have just played a game or two ago won't be good any more.

    I noticed from playing on clay how many serves that I would think are in are actually out. It means I must be playing a lot more out serves that I realize.

    I don't intentionally hook players. If I played a return of serve off a close serve that I wasn't sure of and the opponent obviously didn't play off my shot, then we redo the point.
     
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  13. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    There are three issues that surround line calls and different players have problems with different ones, hence the opther player often misunderstands why calls are made the way they are made.

    First of course are cheaters, ie they know the rules, they know the ball is out (or at least not in) and yet call it out. Luckily rare.

    Second are those who are shakey on the information that if you can't see the ball out, then you have to call it in. This is a knowledge deficit and is (theoretically) correctable.

    Lastly are those who know what to do but have poor eyesight. Don't laugh, it'll hit you sooner or later. We all have an opinion on where the ball is going to land before it does. Occasionally we are suprised. Occasionally we truly don't have a clear view due to pace and after the ball has left our field of view we get an afterimage (in our memory) of where the ball was.
     
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  14. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    I would add that level of play also matters.

    It's usually easier to judge balls with two low level rec players hitting floaters.

    Trying to judge a rocket hit by a 4.0 while keeping your eye on the ball is nearly impossible at times. The focus is on the ball and not the line and it's moving uber fast.
     
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  15. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    I addressed the pace of the ball in the third case (eyesight issues).
     
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  16. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    I call it as I see it, if I can't call it definitely out then it is in! :)

    -Fuji
     
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  17. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Everybody will tell you that they are honest and will call a ball out only when they are sure that the ball is out.

    If you watch league matches, you will come to the conclusion that many players must need stronger prescription.
     
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  18. HunterST

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    A lot of people I play with try to call the lines honestly based on their best guess, but that's not good enough. They will be pretty confident it was out, but not 100% and call it out. Even when I'm pretty sure a ball was out, I call it in when I didn't actually see it land out.

    There have been occasions, though, when I call a ball out with 100% confidence, then have doubts and don't back out. I don't feel too bad about it, though.
     
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  19. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Here's a related question: if faced with a stingy opponent do you change your placement and hit away from the lines, especially on serve?
     
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  20. Nuke

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    ^ Absolutely. No sense in going for the lines if you know it will be called out.
     
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  21. ArliHawk

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    Definitely err on the side of calling it in. After all, it's just club play.
     
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  22. dlk

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    For me, I'm so focused on the ball, if I do not believe it's going to be out when it's clearing the net, I'm playing it; so rarely do I watch & wait for it to land in or out without making a play. There has been many times where after-the-fact (actually returning it) I realized the ball was out but I returned it a split second before, as my vision was intitally on the ball, then oges to the line.
    I think it evens out, though. Especially if your opponent realizes your not a mizer.
     
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  23. MrCLEAN

    MrCLEAN Rookie

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    If I have to think about it, it's good.

    It turns out that I'm generous. In my matches, I'll see a close ball, and play it, but when I check the mark after the point, it will be 1 or 2 inches out. Happens at least once or twice in every match.
     
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  24. wings56

    wings56 Professional

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    it all depends. generally, on the side of generosity. but, if the opponent is less than generous then i will typically shift my calls the other direction.
     
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  25. LuckyR

    LuckyR Legend

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    Nope. Luckily, that is a very rare problem but in those rare cases, I don't change my play. I change a lot of other things, but not my tennis.
     
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  26. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    This is tricky. The level of generosity or stinginess really depends on the game's competitiveness. Look at professional level, they argue and fight for every littlest thing, let a lone a whole point lose.
     
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  27. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Here's yet another related and sticky issue.

    A few times I've been so focused on a ball that, while clearly out according to my opponent, I still played it. This usually happens to me when facing a much better opponent hitting with pace.

    While the official rule is that the opponent is supposed to keep playing it as it's my call a few times the ball was "obviously" out to the opponent and he stopped playing. In each case I offered to re-play the point but noted that in the future they should just keep playing since it simply means I didn't see the ball land out.

    Anyone else experince that "problem"?
     
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  28. SweetH2O

    SweetH2O Rookie

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    That should only be a problem on the first serve. Otherwise I'd tell my opponent that they're allowed to call their own shots out if it's that obvious. I don't know why they'd have a problem with you playing a ball that was out since it does nothing to hurt them. I certainly wouldn't replay the point - they admit to having hit the ball out.

    If I play a first serve that they thought was obviously out, with friendly opponent(s), I will tell them to take another first serve. If the opponent(s) are not so nice, I'll just tell them that it's my call and I do the best I can with my calls.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2012
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  29. chatt_town

    chatt_town Hall of Fame

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    I'm pretty generous unless you start hooking me then you get no close calls. You aren't going to get mine and your line calls. What I don't do is argue line calls. I can pretty much tell if you are hooking me or just missing calls.

     
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  30. KoaUka

    KoaUka Rookie

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    When in doubt, call it out!
    Jk .
    In singles I find myself playing anything close to the lines. In doubles, you have an extra set of eyes out there, I'll usually rely on my partner if they have a better angle on it.

    That being said, if your opponent hits a great shot and it's close, you gotta give it to them no?
     
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  31. MrCLEAN

    MrCLEAN Rookie

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    Yes. Maybe not every match, for for some reason, there always seems to be one call that I totally miss (in their favor). Many times on a serve that's long that's just a blur to me.
     
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  32. TimothyO

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    Yes, it's on first serve. Should have been more clear.
     
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  33. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    this is what i do. if they are unhappy with the call, well so sorry i saw what i saw
     
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  34. BravoRed691

    BravoRed691 Semi-Pro

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    I thought the rule of thumb is " if there is doubt, call it out"?..i mean in! lol

    When i read err..i think some sort of doubt may be involved and therefore you always give it to your opponents..hopefully they do they same :)

    Br
     
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  35. gregor.b

    gregor.b Professional

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    If I am not sure,I gotta call it in. Just the way I roll,it is a game after all and you gotta pay credit where it is due for a good shot.
     
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  36. tennis-player

    tennis-player New User

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    Recently, I played a match where my opponent called every.single.line.shot.out. I mean I could clearly see I was on the line, but all I heard was "long"...."wide"..."out"... I joked couple times "chase review please". It was very frustrating to say the least.

    So, I agree with others - while sometimes it's hard to see if it was in or out, I always give it to the opponent. Unless opponent is like the one I described above...
     
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  37. storypeddler

    storypeddler Semi-Pro

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    By rule, a player has to be certain a ball is out to make an out call. If there is a question as to whether it was in or out, you HAVE to give the point to your opponent---by rule, at least. Not that all players do that. LOL. However, that doesn;t mean a ball has to be out by a foot and leave a glaring mark to be out. If you clearly saw the ball out, you should call it out. If you are playing doubles and you and your partner disagree on the call, you give the benefit of the doubt to your opponents and give the point away. If you are out of position to get a good look at the ball landing, you can certainly defer to your partner if he/she has a certain call. I think the point of the whole thing is to make honest and fair play the standard by which any and all line calls are made. I know for a fact I give away a lot more points than I get on line calls, but I would much rather do that than take points I probably don't deserve. I figure it tends to even out over the long haul, and if I play 2 or 3 out balls and end up losing the match, it was my own fault for allowing it to stay so close as to come down to that. :cool:
     
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  38. Mauvaise

    Mauvaise Rookie

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    I think we all second guess close out calls. More than once I've called a ball out and a moment or two later corrected myself and conceded the point. It's like I did my own little Hawkeye review in my head and realize I messed up.

    Other times I am sure it was out and stand by my call and I still spend half the next point with a slight pressing thought in the back of my head of "was that out?" But I have to let it go because I know I wasn't hooking and if it was a bad call, then we all also make those once in a while as they are occasionally made against us.

    But I also know I've been given a generous call in my favor and I've been known to thank my opponent for said call.

    What irritates me is when I'm playing an opponent who will will hem & haw after a close line ball they missed trying to decide if it was in or out. Make the damn call immediately - trust your gut. If you have to spend 10-20 seconds standing around the line (hard courts) deciding: the ball is good.

    I also will overrule my partner and expect them to do the same for me. I just worry sometimes that my opponents think I'm cheating when I'm receiving and I don't call a serve long and instead return it while my partner calls the fault. For whatever reason, when I'm returning serve (or otherwise actively hitting the ball) I have trouble calling things close - I'm too busy watching the ball to watch where the ball lands, if that makes sense.
     
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  39. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Originally Posted by Maui19 :

    I call it like I see it. If I don't see it, I call it in. If it is too close to be sure, it is in.

    That said, I think I do a crappy job of calling the baseline sometimes.


    There's nothing generous or sportmanship about that. Every player would say they do the same thing! :)

    On other hand, I call it as I see it but if I see my opponent slightly passionately defending his view, I will not hesistate to offer a replay. That's alot more than many people sticking hard to their own view.
     
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  40. PrinceMoron

    PrinceMoron Hall of Fame

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    Good practice is to be in position to hit before you call it. See if you can go a whole match without having to call a shot that is past you.
     
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  41. blip

    blip Rookie

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    What do you guys think about the net guy calling shots out when they don't have the best view. Example baseline calls or even calls on the other side?

    I know sometimes the hitter can't tell but come on you don't have the best view.

    I just go with whatever the opponents call. It's up to me to not make it where they can call it out.
     
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  42. SystemicAnomaly

    SystemicAnomaly G.O.A.T.

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    Your premise is not necessarily true. For balls close to your own baseline, your net guy many times does have the best perspective...

    Quite often, the person closest to the ball does not have a good vantage point or perspective on the ball. If you are very close to the ball, it may be moving across your field of vision too quickly for your eyes to track accurately -- the angle your eyes must move is too great. For someone who is a bit further away, the ball is only moving across a small angle in their field of vision -- so they can track it more easily.

    The other problem is that the person who is closest to the ball should be focused on the ball and their expected contact point rather than focusing on the line. If you focus on the line instead, it may be more difficult for you to track the ball accurately to hit it cleanly. If your net partner suspects that the ball may be bouncing close to the baseline (or sideline), they should turn back to watch the bounce. They should be able to focus on the line rather than the ball -- or, from their perspective, it is easier for them to see both the line and the ball. They can often see a small gap between the ball and the line from their view.

    They have every right to make that call on the ball landing near the baseline. However, they may not always have the best view for a ball landing near the opposite sideline. Notice that linesmen are not that close to ball when calling the lines -- their position is directly in line with the the line but a bit a bit further away -- this makes it easier for them to see the ball bouncing close to the line that they are watching. Notice that the lines person is watching the line and not the ball when it bounces close to the line of interest.
     
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  43. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    There are lot of people that have written "I am generous" or "if in doubt call it in". To me this just seems to be a foreign concept. I call every single ball I see out as out and every single ball I see in as in. There is rarely a point where I am in position and yet still unsure about the call.

    Now I am sure I have made many mistakes in either direction, but I can count on 1 hand the number of times someone has complained about one of my calls.
     
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  44. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    And now for something completely different.....
    I really dont have a clue what the rule is on this related question.

    Is the ball out the instant a part of it touches down completely outside the line? In other words, if the ball is out the microsecond any part of the ball touches the ground outside the lines (and obviously the court), then the "compression argument" becomes irrelevant and balls that squarely hit the line more than 50% out (even 51%) are out becasue no part of the ball had touched the line in the millisecond that the lowest part of the ball touched the ground "out".
     
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  45. stapletonj

    stapletonj Semi-Pro

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    If the ball is one of those around the netpost/reachover type shots, and the physics of tennis balls being what they are; I imagine is theoretically possible to hit a ball so close to the line, framing it almost like a putt, where there is so little up and down motion the ball does not leave the ground, but rolls when it would otherwise would have bounced back up. How far would one allow the ball to roll outside the court before it was "out"?

    Obviously this is only applicable in the "around the netpost" situation b/c that is the only time a ball might intially hit down out and roll or skid in after even the shadow of the ball was out and a normal compression would not even have saved it in ?

    this is important becasue I hit this shot all the time.
    no, really, I do, just ask that guy that posted those videos of his 120 mph serve, he's my doubles partner.
     
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  46. gameboy

    gameboy Hall of Fame

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    These threads are always the same, "I never make any mistakes on calls and very generous, but my opponents always hook like crazy".

    Kinda like how everybody thinks they are above average.

    If the linesmen (and women) at major championships make errors all the time (and all they DO is watch one line for their calls), you can bet your behind that you all make errors in calls (even if you think you are overly generous).

    The true gentlemen and ladies of the game are not the ones who think their calls are generous, the true gentlemen and ladies of the game are the people who accept opponents calls without question.
     
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  47. dizzlmcwizzl

    dizzlmcwizzl Hall of Fame

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    I want to be able to honestly do this.
     
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  48. dcdoorknob

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    I usually err more on my forehand side fwiw.

    :D
     
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  49. Rjtennis

    Rjtennis Hall of Fame

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    I call it like I see it. However, I am extremlely generous on serves. If someone if hitting big serves its pretty hard to always make the right call so i just usually play it.
     
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  50. I always give the benefit of the doubt and give them the point, however one of the guys in my teams loud mouth, ALWAYS calls them out! One of the recent matches, I over heard him stating to his opponent 'It was a close call but I am calling it out" made me chuckle.
     
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