once and for all........lets resolve the forehand please

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by pushing_wins, Aug 31, 2007.

  1. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    someone with a 5.5+ forehand please come forward, please post a video, and explaing how u hit it


    tricky,BB,jeff, u guys talk a good forehand, please post some videos of your forehands, i think there is a ton of misinformation here.


    john yandell, i know u can video tape a forehand, can u hit a forehand?
     
    #1
  2. WBF

    WBF Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2007
    Messages:
    1,970
    Location:
    Somewhere in NY
    The NTRP isn't meant for and fails miserably at everything other than its intended use. Rating individual strokes is not what it is for.

    There is no *right* forehand. There are a wide variety of forehands implementing the basics to produce successful strokes at the higher levels of tennis...

    Here's my forehand (http://youtube.com/watch?v=AgbNM_6Nt3s go to 7:40). This is a light warmup the day before the national f/s tourney. I miss a bit in the video, but that forehand has gone toe to toe with some quality players. But then... it doesn't have the "windshield wiper" finish. It's a different stroke than many players at that level, but it works, so who cares?

    Watch the Santoro match last night? He's another great example of odd shots which work for him.
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2007
    #2
  3. chris1992

    chris1992 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    May 13, 2007
    Messages:
    435
    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yEjtLGMd2p8

    - this is the best example of a topspin forehand i can find in middle of court.

    http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk - this hasnt got the feet but its a superb example of the windscreen wiping idea.

    Key points on forehand, are the same as what i learnt when i was 7 and i still use them.

    -Ready position

    -Star Shape(for a right hander, left hand infront, racket behind)

    -Big nose (over shoulder)

    for timing just remember; bounce, hit

    simple as that for me?
     
    #3
  4. kimizz

    kimizz Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    353
    There is a lot of good info on FH at this forum. You just need to dig it up from the archives...

    Ive learned a lot from this forum.

    -lead the backswing with shoulders(thx tricky)
    -the role of elbow in FH(thx to BB)
    -concept of double bend(thx to tennismastery,JCO,ps. I think Yandell was the original founder of this concept)
    -dont jump on FH even if it seems that the pros do it! Its just the legs driving up!
    -role of the wrist
     
    #4
  5. AceofBase

    AceofBase Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    297
    Location:
    Morganton, NC
    I believe there's is no such as 5 or 7 in the NTRP, cause its just dont make any different at all. For me i would probably ranked myself a 5.5 or higher so, cause i can keep up with a professional tennis coach in a in match. Im a consistent, stable person with a full swing or medium pace. Serve and groundstroke are also consisitent, play more with mind (if you know what i mean). Back hand and forward hand is also consistent with variety shot. Been playing 4 years and have been self taugh, started play when i was in high school.
     
    #5
  6. AceofBase

    AceofBase Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2007
    Messages:
    297
    Location:
    Morganton, NC
    What im saying is that there's no such thing as a 5 forward hand, cause everybody hit different and not the same, one way is to compare Nadal with Feder forward hand or backhand which of them would you think is in the mark of a 5 or higher?
     
    #6
  7. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    the archived info is as clear as mud




    when u look at slow motion, u lose sight a very important factor, rhythm and tempo

    you cannot learn the sensation through the contact zone by looking at slow mo video

    you have to have someone who is hitting it properly describe it


    like jack nicklaus, ben hogan did for golf in their books
     
    #7
  8. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794

    the forward swing is all the same, imho
     
    #8
  9. SlapShot

    SlapShot Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    Have you played and won an Open tournament? How about played Division I tennis and won matches? If you've been playing for 4 years and are selt taught, you aren't a 5.5. I'm inclined to not believe that you're a 3.5, being that you don't state having any USTA competitive experience to gauge your level.

    Professional tennis coaches only have to be rated at 4.0 to be certified by the USPTA. The fact that a player is a coach doesn't make him/her a great player. What's that old saying? Those that can't do, teach.
     
    #9
  10. burosky

    burosky Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 9, 2006
    Messages:
    1,035
    Location:
    CA
    Does one have to be a great player in order to be a great coach? Do you think Bollatieri and Lansdorf just to name two are not great coaches because they are not "great" players? You are right. The fact that a player is a coach doesn't make him/her a great player. To say though that Those that can't do, teach is certainly not a true statement in this case. There are a whole lot who can do and teach. Does Connors and Gilbert, again just to name two, ring a bell?
     
    #10
  11. SlapShot

    SlapShot Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 7, 2006
    Messages:
    2,423
    Location:
    Minneapolis, MN
    I was simply quoting an old adage.

    Teaching and doing are two completely different areas of expertise. Someone like Bollatieri is a good example of a person known as a great coach, and not really known for his playing ability. Connors hasn't yet made a name for himself as a great coach, but was a great player (we'll see what he manages to do to Roddick's game).
     
    #11
  12. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    610
    Location:
    Sunny Va Beach
    Tell that to a Navy SEAL drill instructor, a martial arts instructor e.g Frank Shamrock, Renzo Gracie, Rany Coutore etc., or any SWAT special tactics instructor etc. True there are some people that can teach and "can't do", but I don't think that it's always the case.
     
    #12
  13. sharpy

    sharpy Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2005
    Messages:
    295

    That santoro match was kinda sad last night. He has no weapons against blake but somehow he was retrieving the hell out the ball, and then cramps take him over.

    If you didnt notice, santoro was running his a.ss the whole time trying to get points.
     
    #13
  14. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,699

    This is an odd post. The US Open is on television right now. You can watch players who are a lot better than 5.5s hitting at full speed from a few different angles.

    Verbal descriptions are always going to be difficult to understand. Tricky, for instance, seems to have thought a lot about how to hit the forehand and watched a lot of videos, but I always get lost early in his descriptions.

    A lot of pros don't know how they hit well. Roddick, for example, claims his serve works best when he doesn't think about his technique. Blake describes his forehand as "sitting and lifting" and basically hitting it as hard as he can, while finishing past his head.
     
    #14
  15. Drona

    Drona Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 9, 2007
    Messages:
    124
    Location:
    Austin (don't have to travel to UT anymore!)
    If you are so dedicated to developing your forehand, why not sign up for Hightechtennis or John Yandell's site. You can find an abundance of information for a small price.
     
    #15
  16. JohnYandell

    JohnYandell Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 5, 2004
    Messages:
    1,665
    Nope never hit a forehand in my life. I don't even play tennis. That was my twin in the Visual Tennis video.
     
    #16
  17. Mountain Ghost

    Mountain Ghost Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 31, 2007
    Messages:
    586
    Once and For All?

    Well, once and for all, let’s resolve the real issue here . . . that watching a stroke on video, and/or listening to someone explain how they hit it, won’t RESOLVE anything!

    Being that there are a multitude of effective methods, of all the pros who can hit an awesome forehand, which prototype would be crowned the “best” . . . and by whom? Even more relevant is the fact that tennis is far from a 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 6 sport. A single unique (and sometimes “invisible”) problem anywhere along the chain can make it all add up to a 3, or less.

    I think the biggest hitch is that VERY few students can diagnose themselves, even if they “know” every aspect of whatever stroke they are trying to emulate. A large part of teaching tennis is intuitive . . . finding those one or two unique focal points that can often cure multiple concurrent problems, but which tend to elude detection by most self-prescribed technical-detail junkies.

    There is no magic press-play button in this game. There is no one way to hit the ball. There is no “Once and For All”!

    MG
     
    #17
  18. TENNIS_IS_FUN

    TENNIS_IS_FUN Professional

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2006
    Messages:
    960
    At first glance i thought to myself "man this guy has a weird motion on his forehand..." then i continued watching the video and your right! it works...just saying that the windshield wiper isnt the only way to have an effective forehand.
     
    #18
  19. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    i signed up

    its all the same crap
     
    #19
  20. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    i just want to hit it once, a proper forehand
     
    #20
  21. NamRanger

    NamRanger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2005
    Messages:
    13,916


    You do however have basic concepts that are essential to any good forehand. You lead with your arm rather then your racquet, you make solid contact, you have a relaxed wrist and do not allow it to break after contact (from what it seems) and you actually do use the double bend if you don't notice it.


    The professional players use the wind shield wiper mainly because it allows them to put alot of pace on the ball while having a good amount of spin, effectively creating a heavy ball spinning ball with tons of pace. This motion is one of the most effective because you are pushing through and up through the ball at the same time. Spin plays a heavy factor at the professional level, more so then people think.
     
    #21
  22. spc9999

    spc9999 New User

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    22
    Let me see,

    High definition video of modern forehands by a number of different professionals = all the same crap

    Grainy cellphone video of a poster playing on a darkened court 20 feet away = great

    You're nuts.

    If you want to learn the forehand go and hit. The hit more, and when you think you're done hit more. Hit until your arm is falling off.

    If you haven't a clue how to find a set of mechanics which enable you to practice a forehand, find a coach, a clinic or if all else fails, stop strangers randomly on the street.
     
    #22
  23. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    the wta loop in my forehand is so grooved. hit more will make it more wta

    people i play and hang out with are all teaching pros
     
    #23
  24. spc9999

    spc9999 New User

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2006
    Messages:
    22
    I wouldn't go knocking their swings as being inferior if I were you, personally I wish I could hit as hard and consitently as a WTA player.

    There are videos of pros everywhere, none will help you unless you're able to practice and hit the ball.

    Then it's astonishing that you're so desperate to see a forehand here then isn't it. Just watch one of the people you play and hang out with.
     
    #24
  25. AP328

    AP328 Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 12, 2007
    Messages:
    115
    You are correct. The instructors in these career fields have to prove themselves before they are invited to teach.

    However, it's always entertaining to put all those guys in the same room, ask them which one of them (or agency) is the best, and wait for the fireworks.
     
    #25
  26. kimizz

    kimizz Rookie

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    353
    This is so arrogant, just because you didnt learn the FH doesnt mean that their teachings are crap. Maybe its you who to blame...

    Ive really had issues with my FH, it was crap and its still unreliable at times. But after reading a lot of things from here(TT) Ive improved my FH a LOT! Yes its true, u cant learn tempo and rhytm from the hi-tech site for example. Thats why you need to close the computer and actually spend sime time at the courts.

    Work your FH step by step. Go and play, analyze your problem, find a fix from this forum for example, go and play. Then you might have a new problem, again analyze the problem, find a fix, go and play. Believe me gradually you will get the hang of it.
     
    #26
  27. J011yroger

    J011yroger G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2007
    Messages:
    12,334
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    Pushing_Wins

    Have you ever considered seeing a really good sports psycologist?

    Or mental training coach?

    If you honestly want to improve, that is going to be the biggest thing that will help you.

    J
     
    #27
  28. Wheelz

    Wheelz New User

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Haev you tried the "bounce/hit" drill when you rally ? I find it great whenever my timing is off and I'm not hitting it good. Don't just try it for a few seconds, try for as long as you can... it will really works.
     
    #28
  29. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    LOL, You too? I am just a tennis enthusiast. No forehand at all. In fact, I don't even know what a forehand is. I just watch videos and take notes.
     
    #29
  30. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    If we "talk" a good forehand, why would it be hard to understand?

    So you think there is a TON of misinformation out there? Where? What? What don't you understand? Is it that you understand it but can't do it?

    Show us this TON of misinformation. The forehand is not that hard to learn. If I post a video of my forehand what would that solve? Do you want to duplicate it? Should I tell Braden to post his forehand before I will do anything differently? The professional forehand is mechanically one of the easiest strokes to learn for an overwhellming majority of people. They don't need a whole lot.

    The forehand has basic elements to it and all has been posted very clearly. Practicing it is another matter and although you will incorporate or can incorporate many things that are "known" about how to hit it, still there will be an element of your own way of hitting it.

    Why look at us? Look at a professional, take the TONS of information you have and match it. If there is misinformation then point it out and stop being a moron because you can't get it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2007
    #30
  31. stormholloway

    stormholloway Legend

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2005
    Messages:
    6,834
    Location:
    New York City
    We're discussing this in the "federer's grip" thread in Pro Player Discussion now. I disagree that the elbow should be bent. The natural tendency is for the arm to straighten out. The relaxed wrist will naturally roll over on its own.

    If you look at Federer's forehand, there is a natural inclination for his arm to straighten. Now that doesn't mean lock the elbow, but it does mean relax the arm and let it straighten.

    I really don't get all this "double bend" talk these days. Why not let the arm straighten?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2007
    #31
  32. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    j
    i agree

    its paralysis by analysis

    i have one million things to think about when i hit a forehand.

    but i dont want to be stuck at this level forever.

    there are some major flaws with my technique. if i want to change, i have to be constanting thinking about what i m doing. i have be playing for many years. the flaws are very very grooved
     
    #32
  33. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Why? So the problem is you! Not the information. You have failed to take the basic elements and practice them. So stop analyzing and let us analyze.

    So the bottom-line is why don't you post a video of yourself. Let John, myself, or other knowledgeable coaches critique you (or if you want to keep it private, send it to me and I will be more than happy to help you). You will not be bombared with a TON of misinformation because I am confident that people like John, NBM, TennisMastery, JJ, myself, and others will clue in on pretty much the same thing. Then you will have some simple things to practice.

    If it is too much to handle then pick a few of the things and practice them. My forehand breaks down and develops bad habits if I do not practice and use it regularly. Which is the case today. I would never post my forehand for others to duplicate because I don't play that often anymore. I would rather help others reach a level of play that they have set goals for. If that is you, then take advantage of this to develop your forehand.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2007
    #33
  34. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    holy crap

    i did

    and u already looked at it

    pay attention.

    dont lean back, your weight is moving backwards.......................................

    the question is why???????????? is my weight moving back?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2007
    #34
  35. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    total BS

    totally disagree

    this is the bs i was talking about

    the hinge of the arm is on the wrong side of the body for the forehand.

    thats why the backhand is much easier to learn. the hinge is on the other side..

    do u know what i mean? do u agree?

    if it was so easy, why does a forehand wrist/pronation question pop up on this board every hour? tell me that.
     
    #35
  36. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Pay attention? Boy, you not only want a free lesson you also want to be an idiot about it as well. Good luck.
     
    #36
  37. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    are u quitting?

    do u want the link?

    its a few threads down from this one
     
    #37
  38. Ali Abdullah

    Ali Abdullah Rookie

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2006
    Messages:
    138
    why are u guys wasting time with this guy...? as BB said..he wants a free lession and also be an idiot ....
     
    #38
  39. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,699
    Dude, not only do you need to learn how to hit a forehand, but also you need to learn how to find the Shift key on your keyboard. But enough snottiness.

    It isn't good form to insult professional tennis instructors on this board offering us free advice. That holds even if you're frustrated.

    My advice is to work on the fundamentals. Start slowly, and then groove a new stroke using repetition and video to see that you're doing things correctly. Don't expect a miracle overnight.
     
    #39
  40. Bungalo Bill

    Bungalo Bill G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    11,885
    Appreciate your comments.

    For those of you that don't know me, this video posting was popularized a long time ago when I posted my analysis of Tommy Haas's onehanded backhand. For some reason, shortly after that I gave a critique on a posters backhand and the video posting began. I am not saying I started it, all I am saying is it got popular shortly after those two analysis's took place.

    Although I do not consider myself the best at this, I do know enough to get any struggling player moving forward. With all of this said, you must know what it means to me when someone "asks me" to look at their strokes for free.

    WHAT IT TAKES FOR ME

    1. I lose precious family time because it requires my to break out different professional players strokes and group them on my screen for a step through comparison.

    2. It takes me at least an hour's time in analysis taking notes and measurements to precisely verify what I am seeing. Many times, I see something and it turns out to be more of a players "style" then anything else so I don't make a comment on it unless I think it is a bad habit.

    3. I write and rewrite my words. I write and proof enough times so that it can be clearly understood what I am saying. This means many times I am editing my words, or starting over all together.

    All of this takes time away from things I would rather do. So when some Jack@$$ makes comments like above - I do take offense to it. You will also get nothing from me.

    The point to this is there is nothing in it for me whatsoever.
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2007
    #40
  41. drake

    drake Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2004
    Messages:
    574
    You have more to worry about than a forehand ... Good Luck with the rest of your life kid.
     
    #41
  42. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    610
    Location:
    Sunny Va Beach
    If you play and hang out with teaching pros, wouldn't it be a LOT easier to just ask them to break your stroke mechanics down and help you? As far as a "WTA loop" everyone has their own style that fits them and if you can hit as well as a WTA player, then don't complain and just refine your stroke.
    Personally I think you are overthinking your forehand stroke, you should only be telling yourself to work on one or two things at a time when you are practicing your strokes. Otherwise you are cluttering your mind and thus not progressing.
     
    #42
  43. VaBeachTennis

    VaBeachTennis Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2006
    Messages:
    610
    Location:
    Sunny Va Beach
    That wasn't the best footage that you provided. Why is you weight moving back? ..................Because you are probably off balance and/or letting the ball play you instead of you playing the ball.
     
    #43
  44. herosol

    herosol Professional

    Joined:
    May 29, 2007
    Messages:
    1,184
    how about we all just stick with what we can do and make minor improvements instead of just all trying to imitate one single stroke.
     
    #44
  45. Wheelz

    Wheelz New User

    Joined:
    Aug 25, 2007
    Messages:
    82
    Location:
    Quebec, Canada
    Your video is awesome. I watched it 2,3 times today and went play after. I like how smoothly you hit the ball and always have that nice finish. thanks i learned alot.
     
    #45
  46. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    good luck with yours
     
    #46
  47. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    why are the atp men so efficient in their stroke production?

    how can that 70 pound national ranked junior crush the ball?

    why do u see 4.0 players swinging for the fences but cant put the ball away?

    i have had this discussion with so called "pros" many times. no conclusions.

    i am trying to find the thing i have to work on.
     
    #47
  48. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2005
    Messages:
    2,033
    Location:
    Long Island, NY
    You've played four year, self-taught at the age of 14? and you rate yourself at least a 5.5?

    I don't think that if Federer were in your position he would have reach 5.5+ in four years, self-taught, starting at the old age of 14.

    You should consider turning pro at 22 and dethroning Fed or Nadal or whomever.

    You should be 7,0+ by then
     
    #48
  49. JCo872

    JCo872 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2004
    Messages:
    1,390
    You're a real charmer.

    How hard is it to understand torso rotation, the double bend, and the windshield wiper finish?

    Your problem is that you are looking for someone else to solve your problems. If you're so damn smart, watch the pro videos and figure it out yourself. Take some responsibility instead of relying on other people to solve your problems.

    And to answer your orginal question - check out the tennis guru video. Clint is a practice partner on the pro tour and coaches a pro player. And he writes on this board. How much more hand holding do you really need?
     
    Last edited: Sep 1, 2007
    #49
  50. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794

    isnt the selling point on your website "secrets of the pros"?

    if it is easy to understand, whats the secret?

    is it easy or not?

    btw, where is the john yandell tennis school? i googled the address. it is an apartment building. does he run his school out of the apartment courts??

    thanks
     
    #50

Share This Page