Once Nadal beats Djokovic again, will Djokovic go back to being owned by Nadal?

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by passive_aggressive, Dec 10, 2011.

  1. passive_aggressive

    passive_aggressive Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    220
    Do you think Djokovic's recent success against Nadal is due to Nadal's own demons against Djokovic, which, once exorcised, will make Nadal once again far more likely than not to win against Djokovic when they play, or has Djokovic really figured out Nadal's game?

    I think the former, because everyone knows Nadal's game and has known about it for about a decade. It's not like it needs to be figured out. All he's gonna do is hit to your backhand. All day. Djokovic must have known what Nadal was going to do to him in the past, but was unable to stop it. Now he IS able to stop it because Nadal has got a mental block against him and as a result isn't executing his usually unplayable strategy as well.

    Once that mental block is cleared, is Djokovic toast?
     
    #1
  2. FeVer

    FeVer Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Aug 6, 2010
    Messages:
    630
    Not toast, but the rivalry will become more balanced.
     
    #2
  3. kishnabe

    kishnabe G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2008
    Messages:
    17,216
    Location:
    Toronto
    Nope....Djokovic would still own Nadal.
     
    #3
  4. OddJack

    OddJack Legend

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2009
    Messages:
    9,667
    Location:
    South
    Beating Djoker requires variety in your game. How often do you see Nadal use a drop shot? Serve and volley? flat a FH? take a ball on the rise?
    What does he have to hurt Djoker with? one of the best BH if not the best in the world and Nadal kept going back to it?

    Nadal can beat Djoker like Nishi or Tipsy did, when he is hurting. Just not gonna happen otherwise.
     
    #4
  5. phnx90

    phnx90 Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2010
    Messages:
    3,063
    Location:
    Banned
    The mental block is BECAUSE Djokovic keeps beating Rafa, not the other way around. There was no mental block until this year.

    Djokovic improved his groundies, his athleticism and his confidence by a tad bit and it was enough to tip the balance in Djokovic's favour (since before 2011, their matches were very close: see Madrid 2009 SF).

    Rafa now needs to improve his own groundies (start hitting WW like he does in training and improve DTL BH) and his serve return, although I've noticed that it has definitely improved, at least, from the snippets I've seen of his Davis Cup matches.

    Actually Rafa did use to use a lot of drop shots earlier on in his career. Makes me wonder where it went after all these years tbh.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2011
    #5
  6. joeri888

    joeri888 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Jan 23, 2008
    Messages:
    13,120
    Nadal never owned Djokovic. He JUST won every claymatch they ever played, often by small margins.
     
    #6
  7. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334
    They looked dead even at Miami this year (which Djokovic won in a 3rd set tie-breaker) and Indian Wells (where Nadal had his best set of 2011, the 1st set). So I'm inclined to agree that Nadal mentally became affected as the year went on. It was pretty obvious than Djokovic didn't play a great Wimbledon final, but Nadal dropped the level (despite Nadal playing at a much higher level prior to the final) so Djokovic won anyway.
     
    #7
  8. passive_aggressive

    passive_aggressive Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    220
    Haha, don't worry nadalwon, I'm pretty sure that Nadal will beat Djokovic in maybe a tight AO final, and after that, Djokovic will never beat Nadal again.

    Hell, no-one will beat Nadal after that AO 2012 win (in a slam) until he retires.
     
    #8
  9. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334
    At Roland Garros I'd agree, Nadal may retire with a lot more of them. At the other slams, its either Nadal or Djokovic for the next year at least. That's enough for me, considering how unhealthily Djokovic has finished 2011. Whereas back in 2009 I would have said there were a lot more than 2 players likely to win the slams. Even Murray appeared on the rise back then, and certainly Del Potro.
     
    #9
  10. passive_aggressive

    passive_aggressive Banned

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    220
    Nonsense, Djokovic is the only player on the planet that Nadal can't beat when Nadal is playing at about 65% of his best. That is across all slams, not just RG.

    And Djokovic is only beating Nadal because of Nadal's mental demons against him. If Nadal gets over those demons (which he will because Djokovic is always injured nowadays), every slam he enters will automatically be his. Every other player is simply a non-issue with Nadal - he can beat all of them in his sleep. Especially Federer, who can beat everyone else except for Nadal and possibly Djokovic in his sleep.

    Age also isn't a factor as if Nadal decides to fight (which he will), nothing can stop him. He can keep on winning calendar slams well into his 30's. Ending his career at 25 slams or so is not an unrealistic estimate at this point.
     
    #10
  11. pame

    pame Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2009
    Messages:
    1,452
    I'm trying to figure out whether you're a mental case or just genuinely a stand-up comic
     
    #11
  12. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,571
    before the US Open 2010 Djokovic owned Nadal on hardcourt (7-3) even baby Djokovic was beating Nadal on hardcourt. Nadal is gonna have to play his best tennis and Novak is gonna have to drop in form for nadal to own him on hardcourt. On clay it's possible of course, maybe grass too but grass is only a once a year matchup for them (assuming Novak is at queens and Nadal at halle)
     
    #12
  13. DjokovicForTheWin

    DjokovicForTheWin Banned

    Joined:
    May 30, 2011
    Messages:
    5,811
    Nadal will never beat Djokovic at a slam again.
     
    #13
  14. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2008
    Messages:
    31,287
    Location:
    Far from suresh's "drying up pool of old farts"
    +1.

    Warm Vamoses,
    Señor Senti.
     
    #14
  15. tusharlovesrafa

    tusharlovesrafa Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 21, 2011
    Messages:
    2,399
    Location:
    Lucknow to kolkata
    "Break your leg" with this SIS..
     
    #15
  16. Devilito

    Devilito Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2009
    Messages:
    4,266
    Nadal has been able to beat Federer using the same strategy over and over like a ball machine. It’s so ingrained into his game that now it’s instinct. Djokovic has figured it out and took Nadal by surprise. Nadal has obviously not been able to adjust at all. Nadal has the skill and needs to rethink his approach to playing Djokovic. Federer is no longer the only player on tour worth a damn.
     
    #16
  17. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334
    Federer's chances of winning slams rests on Djokovic beating Nadal, basically.
     
    #17
  18. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,669
    Nadal's chances of winning slams rests on Federer beating Djokovic, basically.
     
    #18
  19. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,571
    Yes. I mean there's only ever been one season where Federer has played nadal more than once and lost all matches (2008) where he lost 4 matches. Nadal's lost 6 out of 6 to Djokovic this year and at least federer got close to winning Wimbledon in 2008. Hence, even now Federer can occasionally score a win over Nadal, it's up to Nadal to prove he can beat Djokovic.
     
    #19
  20. Subventricular Zone

    Subventricular Zone Rookie

    Joined:
    Apr 27, 2011
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    USA
    Yeah, and Federer's chances of winning slams rests on someone beating Nadal, basically.
     
    #20
  21. Homeboy Hotel

    Homeboy Hotel Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,781
    Location:
    London
    I'd still count on Federer's chances at all the slams tbh. I would never shy away or hope for Nadal to be knocked out for Federer's path. More the opposite, I want to see him get a recent slam win over him.
     
    #21
  22. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334
    True that.
     
    #22
  23. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    :shock::shock::confused: You do realize Nadal was serving at 91% in the first set and STILL lost the set, right?
     
    #23
  24. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334
    Yes and 72% overall, but that just shows how inadequate his baseline game was. Nadal only played aggressively off the ground in the 3rd set.
     
    #24
  25. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    His game was fine. Djokovic is just all wrong for Nadal's style. Nadal cannot hit through the Djokovic defense. It's Nadal meeting Nadal basically. :lol:
    Nadal would've actually had a better chance on fast grass. He would've been able to do more damage with the forehand. The slow grass gives Djokovic more time to reach Nadal's shots. Funny how it sounds but you can see how angry Nadal was getting when none of his shots were going past Djokovic.
     
    #25
  26. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    30,373
    Location:
    Orlando FL
    He beat Novak 5 times in a row before. If he beats him again, it will be balanced I think, as Novak will come off his cloud a little, but he will never own him. Or get another long streak on him.
     
    #26
  27. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686


    Nadal will never beat Cvac again. He's woefully inferior to him,and it's too late to do anything about it.
     
    #27
  28. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,979
    Never say never. I would say that if Nadal does not fix certain areas of his game(if he is even able to) and if Djokovic's form of 2011 is maintained, Nadal will likely not defeat Djokovic but in tennis who knows for sure. Things change very quickly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2011
    #28
  29. MichaelNadal

    MichaelNadal Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2007
    Messages:
    30,373
    Location:
    Orlando FL
    [​IMG]
     
    #29
  30. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686

    Sorry,but the truth is the truth.
     
    #30
  31. 1970CRBase

    1970CRBase Guest

    When I start calling Tsonga "Hercules" in 2012, will I get kicked out of TT too? :)
     
    #31
  32. Tony48

    Tony48 Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2008
    Messages:
    6,899
    Djokovic has ALWAYS been tough for Nadal, even before these recent string of losses. Not much is going to change, even if Nadal does end up beating him 1 or 2 times next year.

    Also, it's going to take some SUPERIOR mental toughness from Nadal to even get win. Djokovic has Nadal's mind in his back pocket right now.
     
    #32
  33. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    Yup, Djokovic was giving Nadal great matches on all surfaces but tended to fade down the stretch (Olympics 2008, Queens 2008, Hamburg 2008, Monte Carlo 2009).
    Djokovic is physically and mentally stronger now.
     
    #33
  34. vernonbc

    vernonbc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    Djokovic WAS physically and mentally stronger when he had Dr. Igor in his camp. Big drop off once the good doctor left.
     
    #34
  35. vernonbc

    vernonbc Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,903
    Federer lost 5 straight to Nadal (for the second time in his career). Four in 2008 and he also lost the 2009 AO. Since Wimbledon 07, other than Madrid 09, the only time Fed has scored a win over Rafa is indoors. Since Wimby 07, Rafa has won 9 times on clay, grass and hard while Roger has only won that one time, on clay, plus his 3 indoor wins. I do agree that it's up to Rafa to prove he can beat Djoker but using the record between Fed and Rafa is pretty meaningless.
     
    #35
  36. cc0509

    cc0509 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2010
    Messages:
    14,979
    All pure fallacy. Just wait for the AO and see.
     
    #36
  37. Fate Archer

    Fate Archer Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 14, 2009
    Messages:
    3,669
    Dr. Ivo was not on Novak's camp on the US Open, and still, Novak was the overall stronger player physically and mentally, as he has been throughout the season.

    And don't even try to imply that Novak is doping. The ammount of irony that comes when a Nadal fan tries to do that is downward silly.
     
    #37
  38. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2008
    Messages:
    2,568
    "Once Nadal beats Djokovic again, will Djokovic go back to being owned by Nadal?"

    I feel like with some of the writing here, you can tell the age of some of these people. I'm guessing this forum member is 13 years old.
     
    #38
  39. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334
    Djokovic doesn't have much to brag about in the head-to-head, as Nadal has won 5 of their 7 meetings at slams, and 16 of their 29 meetings overall. So Djokovic has more to prove than Nadal, that is for sure.
     
    #39
  40. Clarky21

    Clarky21 Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2011
    Messages:
    12,686

    Those stats will be reversed in Possum's favor,and at the end of both of their careers it will be lopsided in Possum's favor. That is if Nadal can even make it to Cvac in tournaments so he can lose to him in swift fashion.
     
    #40
  41. Mike Sams

    Mike Sams Legend

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2011
    Messages:
    5,270
    Djokovic has won 9 of their last 11 meetings.
     
    #41
  42. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,571
    I know, the point is Federer managed to get a win here and there which i didn't think would happen after the AO 2009 (even after Wimbledon 2008) I don't think Federer can only win on indoors, because the mental factor is a big player in their matchup hence I feel he could lose anywhere if he let Nadal get on topof him, and for instance at the AO 2009, it was a match that could have gone either way, Federer really paying the price for mentally falling below Nadal when holding match points in the 3rd set.

    However all I'm saying is, after losing 5 in a row to nadal I thought Federer would never win again, but he proved me wrong (however rare it may be) however nadal has those questions about him. I think he'll beat Djokovic again of course but at this point he has more to prove regarding the future of his match up with Djokovic than Federer has to prove about his matchup with nadal. That may sound ridiculous to you but in 09,10 and 11 he scored a win. Nadal may or may not be able to beat Djokovic next year. I would be surprised if they played more than 2 or 3 times and he didn't win at least one. If they only play once or twice it may happen. But it's unknown whether this run will continue and for how long, whether it could be the end soon with nadal gaining the upperhand again, a Federer-Nadal situation where he will win here and there but lose most or a Hewitt - Federer situation where he has a massive losing streak. At present the Federer Nadal matchup has been closer this year than The Djokovic Nadal one, though i', not suggesting it will remain like this.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2011
    #42
  43. Towser83

    Towser83 Legend

    Joined:
    May 17, 2011
    Messages:
    9,571
    ah but that was baby Djokovic ;)

    being serious though -

    Hardcourt slams H2H 1-1
    Grass slams H2H 1-1 (plus Djokovic retired at 1 set all so who knows how that match could have gone)

    Clay slams H2H 3-0 to Nadal.

    Now of course clay counts, but I don't think Djokovic should hang his head in shame that he has a losing H2H in clay slams to Nadal. maybe more meetings on HC will even it up for him, but it was crazy how many times they were not in the same half from 2007-2010 and counting - but 07,08,09 would have given an edge to Djokovic - a lot of times Djoko would have had a great shot at Nadal - I mean Murray beat him twice in HC slams as well as, Tsonga, Delpo. Djokovic was scoring many wins over Nadal on hardcourt in masters semis but he never played Nadal in a HC slam semi. 5 times he played Federer in semis when he could have been in Nadal's half and also one quarter final.
     
    Last edited: Dec 10, 2011
    #43
  44. SirGounder

    SirGounder Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 16, 2009
    Messages:
    1,757
    If this new version of Djokovic is here to stay, then I don't see one owning the other. They will have many epic battles assuming Nadal gets back to form.
     
    #44
  45. stringertom

    stringertom G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Sep 10, 2010
    Messages:
    14,125
    Location:
    In a sureshsian vortex
    That is an assumption of the highest degree. Lately, it's not just Djok on the winning side of the score. Tsonga (2x), Dodig, Murray (w/bagel), Fed (w/bagel). Winning strategies are often duplicated, as imitation is the best form of flattery. Ralph has been "figured out", much like Mike Tyson after Buster Douglas.
     
    #45
  46. Born to play

    Born to play Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2011
    Messages:
    310
    Location:
    In this world
    Yes he will
     
    #46
  47. nadalwon2012

    nadalwon2012 Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2011
    Messages:
    2,334

    Didn't do a lot of good though did it? Since Nadal had already dominated him so thoroughly and still holds a solid lead. Nadal won their first 5 slam meetings, including a Wimbledon and US Open meeting. And now Djokovic is on his last legs, after just one year of domination.
     
    #47
  48. merlinpinpin

    merlinpinpin Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,581
    Nope, as Djokovic was *never* really owned by Nadal. He always was the better player on HC and even sometimes gave him fits on clay. The thing that gave Nadal the edge until 2010 was that he was much stronger physically. But since Djokovic decided to get the same kind of diet as the Spaniard (essentially transforming himself from maybe the weakest top-10 ever (at least as far as retirements go) to Cyborgovic 2.0 in a matter of weeks), there's really not much that Nadal can do, as Djokovic is now fitter than him as well as being tennistically superior (serious matchup issue for Nadal).

    Now, of course, his level can drop for a variety of reasons (injuries, loss of confidence, etc.) and Nadal can beat him again, but I don't think the Spaniard will ever "own" him, considering how their games match up...
     
    #48
  49. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2006
    Messages:
    11,570
    Location:
    Ometepe, Pink Granite, Queyras, Kerguelen (...)
    may you be right. :)
     
    #49
  50. aphex

    aphex Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 15, 2008
    Messages:
    6,263
    Location:
    athens, greece
    Ralph WAS physically and mentally stronger when he had Dr. Eupheniano in his camp. Big drop off once the good doctor left.
     
    #50

Share This Page