One handed backhand thread. Put up or shut up. Let's see video of people's 1hb

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by FrisbeeFool, Feb 16, 2013.

  1. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    377
    In the past month their have been many threads about how to hit a "modern" one-handed backhand. Most of them have horrible game wrecking advice like: attack the ball with your elbow, rotate into your contact point, roll your wrist for maximum supination. etc.

    Advice of this kind is horrible, will wreck people's games, and is being given by people who cannot hit one-handed backhands. Those of us who actually have tennis experience know this.

    Sound one-handed backhands are built on advice like: Prepare early, turn sideways, get your front shoulder under your chin, get under the ball, Reach out towards your target and hit through the ball, stay sideways at contact. Keep your arm relaxed, long follow-through ever time, stay with the shot, take the ball early, make contact out in front, etc. etc.

    So It's time to put up or shut up. All of us who are posting advice, let's all go out and video our backhands, and post the videos. Then let's see who actually knows how to hit a backhand.

    I will post a video of my backhand. It's cold here, but I should be able to get outside in the next week and videotape some groundies. I just got a digital camera, and plan to videotape my shots on Wednesday, and have the video posted by sometime Thursday.

    For the first couple days of the thread we can speculate who can actually hit a one-handed backhand, and make predictions about the results. Hopefully in the next few days the videos will come rolling in.

    It's time for people to put up or shut up!
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
    #1
  2. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    377
    My predictions:
    I know I have a sound one-handed backhand. I'm guessing Cheetah has a good one. I think BoramiNYC has a good one.

    I'll be interested to see the submissions from all the magic of modern tennis, we've reinvented the wheel with our internet message board pablum, we understand the modern game better than Fed or Djokovic, the fundamentals no longer matter, we've invented a whole new paradigm crowd.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2013
    #2
  3. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,361
    looking forward to see some nice 1hbh strokes. weather permitting I'll see what can be done. meanwhile, I agree there have been some 1hbh discussions recently that raised my eyebrows. no worries tho. learning and improving can take a wild journey of perception and we all get there in our own ways. what's important is that any kinds of discussion of 1hbh is happening at all. and folks trying out for the first time and stuff.
     
    #3
  4. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,078
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #4
  5. The Meat

    The Meat Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2012
    Messages:
    1,998
    Okay I have seen this happen a few times this week with other posters. If you are going to post a link for the video make sure to remove the (m.) from the front portion of your link if you are posting on your mobile device.

    Here's the real link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GVpJT8s0BQ
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #5
  6. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,006
    #6
  7. The Bawss

    The Bawss Banned

    Joined:
    May 8, 2011
    Messages:
    2,829
    Location:
    Lyon, France.
    No offence but being able to hit easy sitters which are being fed to you just behind the service box isn't any kind of measure of one's backhand. Despite this, you hit a whole bunch long.
     
    #7
  8. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,006
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #8
  9. onehandbh

    onehandbh Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    3,078
    Thanks. Apparently, posting from mobile phones causes this.
     
    #9
  10. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    496
    He may have a good one. That doesn't mean he can describe how to hit a good one. On the internet at least.

    He says that you should start rotating your torso... then... - wait for it - start to slow down the rotation of your torso all within the two seconds (if that) between realizing you're going to hit a backhand and actually contacting the ball. If that's not over-complication I have no idea what over-complication is.

    I would say, that if you make good preparation and make sure the bottom part of your swing is very low (the 1hbh gives you access to good spin - take advantage) - everything else will follow.
     
    #10
  11. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,294
    my hitting partner - used to hit the 1hbh with the conventional wisdom above... he had an aha moment after I told him to upper cut/ side cut the ball..

    conventional wisdom don't always work... some may do more harm than good.. e.g. 'reach out towards target'.... that has arm/body separation written all over it.
     
    #11
  12. johndagolfer

    johndagolfer Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 2, 2006
    Messages:
    797
    http://youtu.be/RFv8MYUnMJY

    I think i have done pretty well considering I learned and played with a two-handed backhand for over 10 years. I took a 13ish year break and figured I needed a change. I have been hitting this backhand for roughly 1.75 years
     
    #12
  13. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2009
    Messages:
    635
    Location:
    New York
    this thread is going to be the goat
     
    #13
  14. Greg G

    Greg G Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    1,006
    Sounds like he is describing the kinetic chain, and yes that is how I hit mine, although my focus is on slowing the hip rotation, which releases the energy into the torso, and the subsequent slowdown transfers it to the arm/racquet. If there is no slowdown, I would imagine the contact being late and with less power/control, probably spawning some corrective measures from the arm/wrist to get the racquet face aligned or add more power.
     
    #14
  15. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,294
    hence the idea of attacking the ball with the elbow... the energy has to transfer to the elbow, so the rotation will slow down..

    but you don't try to transfer the energy to the racket head (even thought that makes sense), so as to avoid arming the ball with insufficient coil.
     
    #15
  16. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    496
    It doesn't make sense.

    How can you focus on slowing anything down when swinging into a shot. If you try to slow anything down when swinging forward, the shot will not be explosive and it'll be tentative instead.

    I've noticed that my non-hitting arm does indeed fling back when I hit my 1hbh now. Whether or not it flings backwards to slow down my torso rotation as contact with the ball is being made, thus transferring energy from the torso to the racket arm - I have no idea.

    All I know is that as my racket head speed developed, the non-hitting arm started flinging back naturally.

    My backhand has fvcked up for a long time when our group coach told me to focus on flinging the non-hitting arm hand backwards. I imagine it would be even more fvcked up if he had told me to focus on slowing down the rotation of my torso before contact is made.

    I eventually ignored that, and focused on preparation and the actual forward swing instead - the essentials. That is all you need to think about. As I have discovered, the arm flinging back and the torso rotation will all come as you develop the essentials, and it will only mess you up if you think about them instead of the essentials of the stroke.
     
    #16
  17. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,294
    the type of teaching that focus on what a specific body part need to do, can really fvck up a stroke.....

    you need to leverage something that our body already know how to do, like drawing a sword or throwing frisbee.... unfortunately, drawing a sword is a terrible one... and throwing a frisbee.... imo can mess up what the hand should do...

    hence the 'attacking with elbow'.... now.. this attack may not look like when you elbow attack in martial arts, but i believe it is a good cue to have a good coil, and unwind the hitting unit into the ball.
     
    #17
  18. psv255

    psv255 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    967
    Location:
    NY
    Here's a before&after, followed by more "after."

    Before: No lessons, no advice, just hitting with other people and against the wall.
    After: This is after watching xstf's series on the backhand and random tidbits from TW. Tips that helped most were "shoulder under chin", buttcap to ball, and the timing of weight transfer from back to front foot.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vJkaC4MvXgk
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #18
  19. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2004
    Messages:
    7,122
    Not sure what you are getting at. Seems like the ball would go way over the side fence everytime. As long as it worked for your hitting partner it was good advice, though.
     
    #19
  20. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,361
    unless one does everything right from the get go we all go through periods of focusing on specific body parts. trick is learning how to make the correction subconscious and move on. it's a whole another skill on its own.

    you might be at a stage where focusing on elbow helps you, which is fine. I did at some point as well.

    of course frisbee or any other analogy are horribly inadequate but as an approximation of the swingpath I think it's an improvement over drawing a sword which reminds of low arm position in the beginning of the forward swing.
     
    #20
  21. Mahboob Khan

    Mahboob Khan Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2004
    Messages:
    2,094
    #21
  22. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    San Diego
    i agree that you have no idea. It's the same on the forehand. Here's a vid explaining the same principle the fh. (rotation stopping/slowing)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O1Lw-2FaMw&t=4m55s

    and here it is in action with federer http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIiz2QJyjM0

    and in case you plan to say 'but the backhand obeys different laws of physics than a forehand!!" here is the same info regarding the backhand http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gqBEErW0vTA&list=PL01ADDE36D56DF3F6

    dimitrov http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6p5ZdGR4hU&t=2m8s
    gasquet http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghnFZCtkBX0 - opens up more but rotation does the same thing (slows) and then arm whips

    if you have a good kinetic chain as each link in the chain completes it slows/stops and the energy is transferred to the next link. you can continue to rotate some but the ball is already gone by that point. It's the same on the serve also.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #22
  23. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    496
    But in no phase of the stroke should you ever think: 'oh well, I'm approaching contact now, better slow down the rotation of my torso'. If you're consciously trying to slow down the rotation of your torso, you're never going to hit an explosive shot. Your forehand/backhand is going to be a tentative piece of fvcking ****.

    If you slow down your torso's rotation, you're contracting the opposite muscles that produced the stroke. I.e. if you're a righty hitting a backhand, your torso is going to rotate clockwise. You should never contract the core muscles that would cause your torso to rotate anti-clockwise before you've even made contact with the ball. Your stroke will never have power if you do.

    You're not the only one spouting this over-complicated drivel about slowing down various links in the 'kinetic chain' in order to hit a decent groundstroke, and it's been bandied about this forum for ages.

    All I know is that when I started ignoring that stuff, I started using the kinetic chain properly (because everything flowed when I didn't think about it) and my groundstrokes improved a lot.
     
    #23
  24. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    San Diego
    as i said before there's no need to think. you're over-complicating my argument and putting words in my mouth. it's technique. are you telling me fed and djoko's rotation doesn't stop in the vid i posted? there's no constricting. :roll: did you even watch the vids i posted? it's explained in there how it works. Yea... i'm the only one on this forum talking about kinetic chain... ok.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #24
  25. RoddickAce

    RoddickAce Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jul 2, 2007
    Messages:
    2,467
    #25
  26. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,384
    Cheetah does indeed have a good one. I beat on it often.
     
    #26
  27. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    San Diego
    lol. that's it mister. just wait till later this week. :)
     
    #27
  28. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,384
    Great. I made him mad.
     
    #28
  29. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    San Diego
    It doesn't suck.
    I was able to stop your vid at some key moments.
    I think you should straighten your arm much earlier. Your arm elbow is extending through the stroke, a la fed, but most ppl teach against this.
    sometimes when you make contact your elbow is still bent and extending.
    It should be a straight solid structure at contact. you'll get more leverage/power this way. If you straighten the elbow earlier you'll have better consistency because of less 'moving parts' near contact so less chance of breaking down under pressure if that makes sense.

    Also you let go of the racquet with your left hand too early. This means you are swinging the racquet with the right arm from behind your body, around and then forward all on it's own so it's harder to control that way. Look at the pros, they hold that racquet in their off hand until the racquet has started going straight towards the ball. like this:
    fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vq3Pi1KIkT8&t=3m
    almagro: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvG4oRaydkA
    dimitrov: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_uVCOQY50OA

    also sometimes you hit with an open face. I'd recommend trying to get it to neutral at least and maybe slightly closed if possible.
     
    #29
  30. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2010
    Messages:
    2,384
    From a physics sense that's exactly what you're doing. It's conservation of momentum, in this case mostly angular. It's one the key principals behind the whole idea of the kinetic chain. Now what you consciously think about is a whole other discussion, but it should be happening regardless.
     
    #30
  31. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Lafayette, Or
    I agree with everything you said other than take the ball early. Watching these clay court one handers play the last couple weeks I think they would disagree too. Doesn't seem like one handers take it early much anymore other than Fed and a few others. The 2 hander seems more suited for taking it early in the modern game IMO
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #31
  32. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Lafayette, Or
    Shut up. Go away.
     
    #32
  33. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Lafayette, Or
    Very nice!
     
    #33
  34. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2009
    Messages:
    1,021
    Location:
    Lafayette, Or
    It doesn't suck so bad in terms of the motion itself. You seem to fall backwards and have your weight falling back or on your heels on nearly every shot. So if you can get our footwork and balance down I think you will have a fine shot.
     
    #34
  35. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,335
    Location:
    On the courts; hard & clay ...
    have you tried exhaling as you drive into the ball? might help with timing. i think archers exhale when they launch arrows as holding their breath hurts their accuracy.
     
    #35
  36. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    377
    Fair enough.
     
    #36
  37. FrisbeeFool

    FrisbeeFool Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2012
    Messages:
    377
    I'm shocked that advice worked for your friend. Umm...... On the one hander you don't want your arm to be contorted close to your body. Go look at pictures of Federer or any other one-hander's contact point.

    I really don't think you know anything about groundstrokes. Post a video of your one-hander. Your little pearls of wisdom aren't making any sense to me.
     
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2013
    #37
  38. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    496
    haha, amen
     
    #38
  39. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,541
    Cheetah and Always_Crosscourt:

    Always_Crosscourt uses a SW bh grip, so given this I can see how he's generating power by rotating through contact with no body deceleration.

    There are also select occasions when I see pros, esp. Wawrinka, appear to do the same (usually on deep balls hit right at him).


    However, for typical pro 1hbh (and most good ones), the shoulders decelerate through contact while the arm continues moving. That's why the "textbook" 1hbh advocates stopping the shoulders perpendicular to the net (like Federer). And that's why the left hand often flares out before contact. While many pros open up their chests more, the principle is still holding true.

    The typical 1hbh is basically a "pull" stroke, like Federer's forehand.

    The easiest analogy to this principle might be swinging a long axe with both hands. All the "oomph" takes place well before contact, and the momentum of the axe head is what carries it to the target. Perhaps that's why 1-handers seem to prefer heavy rackets.

    On the 1hbh, maximum acceleration of the handle should be achieved well before contact, thus no further body rotation is useful.

    No conscious thought is needed to do this on the 1hbh. Just an ingrained body checking motion (left arm out), proper weight transfer, and perhaps just an intuition about "throwing" the racket at the target.
     
    #39
  40. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2011
    Messages:
    3,877
    Location:
    San Diego
    I agree. good post.
     
    #40
  41. always_crosscourt

    always_crosscourt Banned

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2013
    Messages:
    496
    BevelDevil, I'm not saying I don't decelerate, I'm basically saying I don't know if I do or don't. Knowing this would require me to film myself in slow motion and then time it to see if torso rotation deceleration occurred before contact.

    I do throw the non-hitting arm back now, however, and I didn't use to. Flinging back the arm never happened as a result of me thinking about it - it just came with repetition and getting better.

    Also, are you suggesting there are 'push' and 'pull' types of 1hbh's? If Federer has a 'pull', who has a 'push'? Wawrinka?
     
    #41
  42. BevelDevil

    BevelDevil Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2010
    Messages:
    1,541

    No, I think all pro 1hbhs are pull. I was just saying the same principles apply as the pull forehand.
     
    #42
  43. Buford T Justice

    Buford T Justice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Messages:
    424
    Yes...he looks good IMO!
     
    #43
  44. Buford T Justice

    Buford T Justice Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2011
    Messages:
    424
    I've watched some super slo mos of Fed and it does appear that he keeps his left arm and hand more or less at his waist on the BH. The left arm doesn't flail backwards until the ball is long gone and it seems this movement is just for balance?
     
    #44
  45. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,294
    open you mind.

    there are more than one way to hit the shot.... assuming you do have a sound bh, that does not mean you understand how others hit it.

    i am not gonna bother posting a video, it won't serve any purpose, because you ain't gonna understand the motion anyway.
     
    #45
  46. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2012
    Messages:
    4,335
    Location:
    On the courts; hard & clay ...
    weak excuse...

    you can argue he may not understand the motion, but he will be able to see the resulting ball...
     
    #46
  47. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2012
    Messages:
    1,294
    no... if i say that i hit like dimitrov, he's not gonna understand it, as dimitrov certainly does not stay low, and stay sideways, and extend to the target etc etc.
     
    #47
  48. psv255

    psv255 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    967
    Location:
    NY
    If not to explain to FrisbeeFool, we'd still like to see a vid of a good 1hbh!
    Isn't demand a purpose in itself?
     
    #48
  49. slowfox

    slowfox Professional

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2011
    Messages:
    1,110
    50+ posts... Where are these videos?
    And my bh sucks. I can ridicule myself... :)
     
    #49
  50. psv255

    psv255 Professional

    Joined:
    Aug 31, 2011
    Messages:
    967
    Location:
    NY
    they're in there, most on the first page. The thread trailed off into disagreement in instruction/stroke production about halfway in.
     
    #50

Share This Page