Only 3 Real GOATS

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by Liv3 For It, May 17, 2009.

  1. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    Yes. But please note that I am not really arguing against the notion that Borg was a very versatile player. He certainly was. I have no problem giving him a high mark in that department. I would give a higher mark only to Laver. My argument was mainly against the notion that Federer has any less versatility than Borg. Similar arguments as you present for Borg on hard courts can be presented for Federer on clay, and this was pretty clear to me already before he won the FO. His losses in 4 RG finals and a bunch of Master's clay finals mirror the losses of Borg at the USO on hard courts, with the difference that beating Nadal on clay is probably even tougher than beating Connors or McEnroe on hard courts. Even so, he did manage to beat Nadal in a couple of Masters finals on clay. My argument is simply that Federer is at least every bit as versatile as Borg was. The only one among those goat candidates that I see clearly lacking in versatility is Sampras for obvious reasons.
     
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  2. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    I think you're quite right Benhur. I would agree that Laver, Borg, and Federer have all displayed greater overall surface versatility than Pete Sampras. Sampras could still be dangerous even on red clay, but I would put him behind those other players in terms of a "weakest surface". Meanwhile, Nadal really needs to do better on indoor courts in particular, perhaps at the YEC, if you look for his perhaps weakest surface.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2013
    #52
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    No Hoad?
    I agree on Laver though
     
    #53
  4. Benhur

    Benhur Hall of Fame

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    There is a certain tree that goats like to climb to eat its fruit and enjoy the view. Sometimes up to ten goats can be seen vying for space on top of a tree. There are many images like the one below http://tinyurl.com/c54tmuy

    The tree of tennis contains at lest half a dozen goats.

    [​IMG]
     
    #54
  5. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Great point Benhur. I completely agree with that perspective and the image above is very representative of it!
     
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  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.
     
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  7. tennisplayer1993

    tennisplayer1993 Semi-Pro

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    I actually agree with that:

    I would rank them as the following:
    1. Federer (watching him play in 2004-2006 was so fun, my jaw dropped every game from one of his shots, I hated him for robbing my fav. player of multiple Wimbledons but he was by far the most talented player on tour during his prime). The versatility he developed in his game throughout 2004 was just god-like
    2. Sampras (I never really got to experience Sampras besides watching him extensively during the USO 2002)
    3. Lavar (The Grand Slam)
     
    #57
  8. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    tennisplayer: No player is God-like, especially not Federer who lacks some versatility...
     
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  9. Fintft

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    I liked Nastase myself and I was kinda split between Laver, Borg and him. Maybe adding Federer and Sampras to the list.
     
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  10. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    Keep going Bobby, never ever surrender. The world is counting on you to enlighten us
     
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  11. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    just for you baby!
     
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  12. FEDERERNADAL13

    FEDERERNADAL13 Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for posting this. I've got some watching to do :)
     
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  13. tennisplayer1993

    tennisplayer1993 Semi-Pro

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    What does he exactly lack?
     
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  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    ARFED, Thanks for your nice and supporting words. In fact I'm happy that I have contributed a bit to enlighten you and others...
     
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  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    For instance to change his game plan when helpless to Nadal and others...
     
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  16. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    lol at Federer being helpless against Nadal. He's lost alot of matches to Nadal but most of those were close, lots of tiebreaks and final sets. Federer's handed out more bagels to Nadal than vica versa.

    What versatility does Rosewall have that would work against Nadal on these slow high bouncing courts?
     
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  17. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    http://www.tallmenshoes.com/
     
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  18. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    #68
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, As the GOAT he should not have lost so many matches. It does not matter too much that he seldom was crushed.

    Rosewall f.i. would volley much more than Federer does.

    I'm glad that recently Peter Bodo and Jeff Salzenstein have critisized Federer's weaknesses, i.e. his defensive backhand and his volley.
     
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  20. Phoenix1983

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    As the GOAT (according to you), Rosewall should not have lost five Wimbledon finals. It does not matter too much that he was not at peak.

    8)
     
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  21. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    You said he was helpless, I corrected you.

    And Rosewall would get passed at will and struggle with the topspin from Nadal's forehand.

    And a dozen others have praised Federer as being the greatest of all time. Probably not the best idea to quote "experts" on this. Most of them would probably swing my way. Federer's forehand and serve are vastly superior to Rosewall's, I guess Rosewall is a poor GOAT candidate.
     
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  22. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    In ignorance you are the undisputed GOAT!
     
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  23. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, IT's yet as sign of being helpless when being unable to turn an important match and win a seemingly losing match.

    Rosewall was able to take top-spin shots on the rise. He is a worth GOAT candidate.

    It's an honour for me not to speak as majority speaks...
     
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  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, and return, backhand, forehand volley, backhand volley, drop shot, drop volley, half-volley, lob, stamina, footwork, reflexes, tactics, anticipation of Rosewall are superior to Federer's...
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
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  25. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Rosewall was then helpless in Wimbledon finals...

    An even contest decided on a few points is not the definition of helpless.

    lol at you thinking the topspin of bygones past is anything close to what Nadal brings to the table. Nadal would destroy Rosewall if he tried to come to the net on the slow courts of todays era.

    I hope you enjoy playing the martyr BobbyOne.
     
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  26. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    That's just your opinion. Federer's return of big serves leaves your man in the dust, unless you have some evidence of Rosewall returning 140mph serves? As for volley's fine, but then again Rosewall didn't have to deal with the amount of topspin Federer has to when he volley's. Federer's footwork and anticipation and reflexes are excellent. As are his drop shots. Stamina? I doubt Rosewall has Federer beat considering modern sports science.
     
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  27. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Ignorant NatF, Rosewall would have excellent chances if both players used wood. Then Nadal would not be able to show his extreme top-spin.

    I enjoy my knowledge of tennis history. I don't enjoy hateful posts...
     
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  28. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, again wrong: Rosewall faced and beat players who served as fast as the modern players (Gonzalez, Newcombe, Tanner) did!!
     
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  29. Phoenix1983

    Phoenix1983 Hall of Fame

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    BobbyOne, you really are a hopeless case.
     
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  30. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Likewise you give Rosewall poly and put him on these slower courts and his game is neutralized...
     
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  31. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Whats Rosewall's h2h with those guys?

    Regardless speed isn't everything and Rosewall returning fast serves doesn't prove his return is better when Federer has done the same...
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
    #81
  32. Phoenix1983

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    I just realised that Art Larsen died three months ago.

    Thus Rosewall is now one of the ten oldest living male Grand Slam champions.

    Sorry, this is apropos of nothing.
     
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  33. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I even could imagine that Rosewall nowadays, with the extreme racquets, would show a topspin backhand as well. You underrate Rosewall's skills!
     
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  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Rosewall trails Gonzalez about 75 to 100, he leads against strong Newcombe (in John's peak!) 14 :10 and he trails Tanner 2:4 playing him when Muscles was a grandpa. In their most important match (Wimbledon 1974) Rosewall won in four sets.
     
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  35. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I underrate nothing. I've said numerous times I think Rosewall and Laver would be incredible in todays era. They wouldn't be playing the same way though. I give Rosewall more respect than you give Federer.

    From what I've seen Rosewall was quick and his backhand was very very good indeed. But those are the highlight reels. I've seen some excellent down the line shots. I find it hard to believe he could go for winners like that today.
     
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  36. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    I'll admit I seem to have underrated the serves of former players. I think the serves of today are likely to be superior on average and the best of today > the best of the 50's 60's and 70's.
     
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  37. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    And the Federer highlights I have seen (lobs and so on), provided by abmk, are also "only" highlights...
     
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  38. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    one must have followed the Great One's matches with regularity to observe such mastery on a match to match basis, especially in his prime (not the overly extreme highlights that are one in a million, though he has numerous of those), but insane shotmaking generally that's unrivaled. Nadal's underrated in this department too, his great speed allows him to reach the ball in some very difficult positions and blast a highly amazing winner.

    With due respect to past greats, I've yet to see someone even remotely provide highlights of Fed or Nadal or Djokovic's stature, in terms of shotmaking and retrieval/defense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2013
    #88
  39. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    It shows he's capable of fantastic touch etc...if you saw much of Federer at his peak you'd know he did such things with regularity.

    You don't understand that it's baseline centric era, if touch shots constantly won matches that's what Federer would do. Instead he plays from the baseline mostly and uses various other shots to take opponents off guard.
     
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  40. ARFED

    ARFED Semi-Pro

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    The problem with Bobby is that he didn`t even see Rosewall in his prime (not much of post prime Kenny for that matter), so it`s a fact that he doesn`t know what he is talking about, at least not from his own experience. So sorry Bobby, but you know the same about Rosewall`s prime game as i do about Lacoste`s
     
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  41. rofl_copter3

    rofl_copter3 Professional

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    I am prepared to get flamed but the mens game has come soooo far from when Laver played that you just can't compare what he did to the things players do or don't accomplish now...

    It is more realistic to do a goat by decade.

    that said if I had to do a top 5 all time in no order it would be

    Laver Federer Sampras Borg Nadal...

    Of these I believe Nadal and Sampras are second tier players with more of a one surface thing going on...
     
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  42. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    As always, you are wrong.

    Nobody here has seen Rosewall in his peak (at the most a bit of the late prime).

    I have seen enough of Rosewall's game that I can imagine how good he was in his peak.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2013
    #92
  43. Phoenix1983

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    Haha, why do you speak as such an authority on Rosewall when you are basing your judgment of him on your imagination?
     
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  44. Dan Lobb

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    There were many detailed accounts of matches in newspapers such as London Times and New York Times which give a good understanding of achievements before television.
     
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  45. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Laver rates Rosewall 5th or 6th amongst just the older crop of players. His peak play can't be so extraordinary considering his great record...
     
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  46. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Phoenix, No comment...
     
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  47. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, Even a friend of mine who is a true Laver admirer, cannot understand Rod's Rosewall ranking. Laver, as most players, is a better player than expert in ranking all-time greats. I also don't agree with Rosewall's ranking of Federer (No.4).

    Where is your logic, my intelligent fan of the modern players: Just Rosewall's awesome achievements indicate that he must have been extremely strong in his peak! A player who is No.2 at 40 must have been extremely strong when 26.

    Rosewall crushed Laver 6-4,6-2,6-2 in the US Pro of 1963.
     
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  48. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Laver had only recently become a pro then though when he suffered such a beating?

    Rosewall's longevity is perhaps the greatest of all time, I am sure Rosewall was extremely strong at 26. However we can't quantify it because we can't see it. Likewise Federer returned to #1 past his prime over players your rate higher than him for peak play (who themselves were peaking). Perhaps we both underrate?
     
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  49. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Is there a link to Muscles' rankings list?
     
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  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Laver was already extremely strong at that time.
     

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