Open era ranking based on the Slams + Season end finals

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by timnz, Aug 13, 2012.

  1. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    Here's the reality .....


    Djokovic >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kodes .......

    He'd crush Kodes on any surface.

    Djokovic has won 5 majors beating either one or both of federer and nadal, all time greats ...

    Kodes has 0, I repeat zero such majors ........ ( and no, Nastase doesn't count... Nastase while a very good player, is not an all time great in terms of what he actually achieved )

    I've said this and will say it again. Kodes rightfully is not talked about much. He's the equivalent of a one major winner .......
     
  2. timnz

    timnz Hall of Fame

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    Slam Finalist

    What about being a Slam finalist? You happy with the 1.2 x Masters 1000 ratio? (Which the ATP currently uses) I feel it is really important to include these because not to include them is to say that making a slam final is like losing in the first round of a slam - no points. When really it is a notable achievement in itself.

    So can we agree that since 1990 the top 4 events were the Slams, the 5th event was the Masters Cup, the next 9 events are the Masters 1000's? If so, I then have to focus on 1968 through to 1989. That's 22 seasons. For 1970 to 1989 I will mostly use the Championship Series events as 'the next 9 events'. The complicated period is 1983 to 1989 as to where to place the WCT finals and the Australian Open. Surely both where in the top 14 events in that period - and if so, what Championship series event do I drop off to include them? And what order should I place the Australian open above or below the WCT finals in that period?
     
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2012
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    As to what I know, Djokovic won his majors beatin 3 times Nadal , a great achievement, Tsonga and Murray...well, neither Tsonga or Murray are at the level of Nastase, as you should know....
     
  4. BauerAlmeida

    BauerAlmeida Semi-Pro

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    But he defeated Federer in straight sets in those.
     
  5. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    the bold part is the key ........ you don't know much

    here is a clue ....

    in AO 2008, djoker defeated federer in a close 3 setter in the semis
    in AO 2011, djoker defeated federer in a close 3 setter in the semis
    in wimbledon 2011, djoker defeated nadal in 4 sets in the finals
    in USO 2011, djoker defeated federer in a close 5 setter ( saving MPs) in the SF and nadal in the final in a 4-setter
    in AO 2012, djoker defeated nadal in a close 5 setter in the final...

    and finally in case its not obvious to your highness, its not only the final in a major that counts, the other matches do too .......
    and just getting to know the results of the finals ( like you do ) does NOT count as following tennis ....... bah !!!!
     
  6. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    You mean like Kodes beating world´s nº 1 Newcombe and world´s nº 1 Smith before the finals¡¡¡

    bahhhh
     
  7. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ABMK, No matter what you want to sell, winning a Wimbledon title against 5 times CONSECUTIVE TITLEHOLDER like Borg, all time greats Connors and Nastase , is not minor feat..if none of those 3 legenda reached the final...is it the fault of the Champion???

    remember that Hewitt beat unheralded Argentinian, Nadal beat Berdych, Mac beat Lewis, Federer beat Murray... so none of those wins are tougher than beating a several times GS semifinalist like Metrevali...
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ABMK, do not confound hating a poster and hating a champion...
     
  9. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Kodes compare to Nole, haha...

    Roddick is even better than Kodes.
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    One timer Roddick? Really?
     
  11. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    clueless >>>>>> Kodes didn't win either USO 71 or 73 .....

    Djokovic won those majors .....

    djokovic also beat federer at USO 2010 and FO 2012 ( both semis ) , but notice I didn't mention them in that context ...........
     
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    yes, and Djokovic won the 2010 USO and the 2012 FO...keep trying, ABMK...
     
  13. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    what a load of cr*p ...

    borg started dominating wimbledon in 76, 3 years from when Kodes won that worst Wimbledon of open era, 73 ......he shouldn't even be mentioned in the context of wimbledon 1973 ....

    connors had still not hit his peak

    nastase bombed out ...

    13 of the 16 seeds boycotted the event, a total of 81 players ......

    Do you even have any clue how weak that makes the field ?

    its reduced to an event much much much less worthy ...

    mac also beat lendl in the semis in wimbledon 83 ....
    federer beat hewitt, davydenko, tsonga and murray in a row in AO 2010
    hewitt also beat henman in wimbledon 2002
    nadal beat soderling,murray and berdych in a row in wimbledon 2010

    All those wins are a 100 times better than Kodes' wimbledon win in 73
     
  14. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    dumbo, he didn't win those .... that's why I didn't mention them in that context ....

    Looks like the ownage has taken toll on your already fragile, clueless mind
     
  15. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    absolutely ...... Roddick > Kodes ...

    Kodes is the equivalent of a one-timer .....( given the pathetic fields @ wimbledon 1973 and to a lesser extent FO 70 ; even FO 71 was not a full one, but atleast he beat nastase there)

    and Roddick won many more titles, had a higher peak level outside of clay, was a top player for longer ....
     
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    " If nastase bombed out" it was not Kodes fault, is it? it happens, even when Fed wins a major (Nadal bombed out against Rosol)

    Kodes beat Taylor and Metrevali, better than Lewis ( although Leis was in zone in 83, I saw him a few days after against Swede in a dc match and he showed his limits...)

    yes, fed had a good run but only Hewitt is worthy mentioning since the others are good players, not champs...
    henam??? hahahahahaha.A joke, isn´t it?
    Soderling,Murray and Berdych is a great ru, but Kodes won events against Gimeno,Nastae and Smith, who have a far bigger major titles, isn´t it?

    so...at the end of the day...what is your point?
     
  17. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    nastase was flaky ..... nadal is not ....It matters here the most because the field was already a super dud because of the boycott .....

    how many times does it happen that 13 of 16 seeds and a total of 81 players decide to boycott Wimbledon ?

    in wimbledon 2012, the field was a full one .... and federer beat djoker and murray back to back

    Are you really dense or trying to just pretend when you don't acknowledge that Wimbledon 73 was easily the worst and weakest of the open era ? I mean for God's sake, fields in Queens for several years have been much stronger than that ......

    so ? Mac did beat Lendl in the semis ..... and Lendl on grass > Taylor, Metravali and Kodes

    so what ? Kodes didn't win majors or even YECs against gimeno,smith .. did he ?

    federer's toughest match at AO 2010 was the one against davydenko who was playing brilliantly at that time, having just won the YEC ( and another title ) in which he beat both federer and nadal back to back ....

    The Hewitt match was not that tough at all ...

    Fact is you don't have a clue >> neither about the players nor their forms .... must have just read some results of some finals here and there ...


    Kodes is the equivalent of a one time champion. He could occasionally beat great players here and there, but that's about it. The majors he won were incredibly weak ....... and the proof is irrefutable ...
     
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2012
  18. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Kiki I'm curious. Where do you rank Kodes all time and among the players you have seen?
     
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is a good question.I´ll take some time to make my top 30 list of the best players i have seen live, but I´ll do it, a good challenge.Right now, at first glance, I reckon Kodes would be a top 20 choice.
     
  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Here's some that I feel were better than Kodes that I have seen in person. Tell me if you agree or disagree.

    Vilas, Newcombe, Roche, Ashe, Laver, Nastase, Connors, Borg, Pancho Gonzalez, Rosewall, McEnroe, Edberg, Becker, Agassi, Sampras, Djokovic, Nadal, Federer, Wilander, Stan Smith-This is off the top of my head.
     
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I agree, except Smith, Djokivoc is possible.Courier, same level as Kodes.Emerson, a bit better but not much.Bruguera, I take Kodes.That means Kodes is in any top 20.

    OTOH, Panatta,Orantes,Mecir,Gerulaitis,Safin,Pecci,Stich were even more talented than him but he took advantage of himself quite better and got a better overall record.
     
  22. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    since the open era, players better than kodes IMO,

    laver, rosewall, roche,ashe,newk

    smith,nastase,connors, borg,vilas

    mac, lendl, edberg,wilander, becker

    sampras,agassi, courier,chang,stich,krajicek,rafter

    kuerten, safin, hewitt, federer,roddick,nadal, djoker
     
  23. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    djokovic is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kodes

    emerson is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kodes

    courier is >>>>>>> Kodes

    how does Kodes have a better overall record than safin ?

    safin has 2 full GS, beating two ATGs, sampras and federer in them ... not to mention he's beaten almost every one of note in slams - federer, sampras, agassi, hewitt, roddick, djokovic ... everyone ...

    kodes didn't beat any one of - laver, rosewall, connors or borg in slams

    safin has 15 titles to Kodes' 8

    safin has career high ranking of 1 to Kodes' 4

    stich also is better than Kodes ...

    he won wimbledon beating both becker and edberg, two ATGs and all time great grass court players ...... something like I've repeatedly pointed out, Kodes never did to win a major

    stich also won the YEC , beating sampras, goran, courier and chang ...

    stich has 18 career titles to Kodes' 8

    career high ranking of 2 to Kodes' 4

    sneaking out "mickey mouse" weakened slams like Kodes did does not make a career that much better
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  24. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I'm curious about kiki's reaction. He probably will not be convinced by good arguments...
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    abmk started watching tennis aroun 2000.he cannot talk about anyting before
     
  26. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    jeez, in which world are courier, emerson, stich players who played after 2000 ?

    and just to refresh that faulty memory of yours, I've seen tennis live since the 90s and I've seen plenty of tennis before that - full length matches - through videos ....
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    As I said, ABMK is clueless about rackets before end 90´s.He has just confirmed that in his last post.
     
  28. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    rackets ? rackets ?????? how exactly do they come into the picture here ?

    clueless kiki - do you have one of those usual clueless, hilarious responses of yours - to me clearly showing that both safin and stich are easily greater than kodes or have you given up on that too ? :lol:
     
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    73 Nastase flaky???
     
  30. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    hell yeah ...... he had a brilliant year in 73, ending it no 1 ..... but losing to :

    sandy mayer @ wimbledon ?
    andrew pattinson @ forest hills ?

    If that is not flaky, nothing else is !
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Kuerten only on clay, he is a lousy player on grass.Chang? a joke.Hewitt? a worse joke, even.

    As I posted, Stich and Safin or Roche had more raw talent but not close to jan´s record.
     
  32. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    but kuerten on clay was far superior to Kodes on clay .....

    He also won the Masters in 2000 beating agassi and sampras, thus clinching the year end no 1 ... the highest Kodes achieved was no 4 ...

    again career titles : kuerten has 20 career titles to Kodes' 8

    Kuerten >> Kodes


    your statement is the one that is a joke ...

    hewitt was year end no 1 in the world for 2 years, won 2 full majors, won 2 Masters ....

    28 career titles ....

    Kodes didn't even win one full major , the closest was FO 71 where he defeated nastase (even then depleted because of no Laver, Newk, Rosewall ) ...... FO 70 and wim 73 ( even more so ) were downright pathetic ..

    hewitt >> Kodes

    Kodes has only 8 titles ...

    as far as chang is concerned, he beat lendl,edberg to win his RG ... has 34 titles to Kodes' 8 ... was in the top 10 for 7 years, longer than Kodes .....

    chang > Kodes

    based on what exactly , dumbo ?

    didn't I already already rip that apart in my previous post ....

    Here, read it slowly , again .... , it might penetrate that thick head of yours ...

     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2012
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Hewitt won a Wimbledon title against...Nalbandian¡¡¡ and Chang just one major, although he played in a very tough era (Hewitt´s era was ajoke because Sampras and Agassi close to retiring, Federer still too young, Kuerten and Safin, big talent but up and down)...

    Kodes beat world´s n1 Newk and Smith at FH, on their favourite soil, which is never achieved by Chang or Hewitt ( yes, he beat Sampras but who else?)...OK, I´ll give it to you that Safin may equal Kodes because he ebat Sampras and Federer at their or close to their peak...but, then again, you dumbo, never understood that I posted Safin to be the biggest talent of the 2000´s along Federer.

    If Prime Safin was still there, Nadal and Djoker look like journeymen Ferrer or Berdych...
     
  34. abmk

    abmk G.O.A.T.

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    beating sampras to win US Open >> upsetting one of newk/smith, but losing to the other ....

    he's also beaten nadal, roddick,kafelnikov, nalbandian in majors

    beaten sampras, agassi, federer, rafter,safin, ferrero,roddick at the Masters

    beaten federer in davis cup, kuerten on clay in davis cup

    etc etc ..

    how on earth was agassi close to retiring in 2001-02 ???? he retired in 2006 ........ clueless, total clueless ....

    and Kodes won wimbledon against whom ? metrivili ? LOL !!!!!!! with 13 of the 16 seeds and 81 players in total missing ....... the wimbledon title that Hewitt won was in a full field and hence >>>>>>>> Kodes' wimbledon title ...


    actually, safin >>>>>> over-rated fluke weak-field advantage taker Kodes ...... ( who won zero majors in full fields )

    Kodes never accomplished anything remotely close to destruction of an ATG in a major ( sampras ) nor went toe-to-toe with an ATG at his peak and win ( federer ) ......

    he never reached no 1 either like safin did and has won only half the titles that safin did .......

    so how on earth is he close to safin ?


    dumb, totally dumb ...
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2012
  35. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    ABMK and Kiki: I have a post in reply to yours but let's take this to another thread, since Timnz has asked us not to divert this thread from its topic.

    The Top 10 of all time right now thread seems a better place.
     
  36. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Shouldn´t people make the top ten of the players they watched live instead of including those that did not watch?
     
  37. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    ^^^
    You can only thanks kiki for hijacking timnz's thread for flaming like a kindergarden kid.
     
  38. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I understand your bad temper since Federer lost - again- to slamless Berdych...
     
  39. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    I hate to say this but you need to grow up. You are an old-timer, act like one, not like a little kiddy.
     
  40. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    It is hilarious to have you as a maturity expert:-(
     

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