Optimum Racquet Balance for Performance II - MgR/I Data for ATP Pros

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by travlerajm, Jul 5, 2011.

  1. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    Very interesting. Thank you travlerajm for this wonderful info. I feel enlightened about racquet tuning. Before this, I would just get dozens of racquets and demo them and choose the one that felt good. I am happy to report that the ones I have chosen have passed the MgR/I test and vice versa for ones I didn't like.

    About swingweight I understand that high weights benefit professionals but I think it's worth noting they train hours every day, developing strength and advanced technique to make swinging them easier for them. They also have balls coming at them at a much greater speed. My feeling is that really heavy racquets may possibly be detrimental to performance for club players if swinging them becomes difficult and that sufficient stability can be achieved with slightly lighter racquets given the slower paced balls they have to deal with.

    Somewhere in the threads you mentioned you were writing a book on this subject. I was wondering how that is coming along and would like to express my enthusiasm at obtaining a copy when it is complete. Cheers!
     
  2. Crisp

    Crisp Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    640
    I'm not sure that I understand this whole MgR/I concept but I would like too. Could someone direct me to exactly where it is all explaines eg. What the formula stands for and how to work it all out etc?
     
  3. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Trav, using a wristband means dropping the mgr/i, which mean making the racket less headlight. Isn't a more headlight racket better?

    If so, I could just keep wristbands in my pocket. Although this is a pain in the ass, as there is less room for tennis balls in my pocket.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  4. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,443
    No. Using a wristband does not drop the MgR/I value. And it does not make your racquet more headlight. Adding a wristband slightly slows down the rate at which your hand drops from the top of the backswing to the lowpoint. While it doesn't speed up the racquethead, it increases the relative speed of the racquethead compared to the hand. Thus, adding a wristband has the opposite effect of dropping MgR/I, even though the actual MgR/I value is virtually unaffected. What is affected is that your optimum MgR/I target value goes down.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  5. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    But, you have to drop the MgR/I if you wear wristband's for optimal timing, don't you?

    With this, you have to making the racket less headlight. Isn't a more headlight racket better?
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  6. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,443
    Yes. That is correct.
     
  7. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    I am interested in this as well. I struggle to reach sufficient swing-speed with heavy swingweight. I am only 22 and fit and healthy. Also, don't wristbands slow down you swing-speed, so it is harder to yield high swingweigh rackets?

    Do you still plan on publishing a book? I too would be very interested in reading it.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  8. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    With this, you have to making the racket less headlight. Isn't a more headlight racket better?
     
  9. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,443
    No. To reduce MgR/I, you don't necessarily need to make the racquet less HL.

    To be clear, making a racquet more headlight by adding mass to the handle will increase MgR/I. And reducing MgR/I by removing mass from the handle will make the racquet less headlight. Making a racquet more headlight while keeping the mass and swingweight the same (e.g., by removing mass from the top of the handle and replacing it at the butt), will decrease MgR/I.
     
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2012
  10. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    How do you remove mass from the top of the handle?
     
  11. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,443
    Peel off the lead you added there.
     
  12. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    I'm not the one writing a book, it's "travlerajm".

    I'm pretty sure a wristband isn't going to affect the swingweight of your racquet.
     
  13. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    But doesn't a wristband add mass to your arm and slow down swing-speed, thus making it harder to yield a high swingweight racket?

    Travlerajm, I don't have any lead tape on the racket. I have measured it and it is already at my preference of 20.55.

    Will I have to make the racket less headlight if I wear wristbands? From what I've read, a more head-heavy racket is less comfortable, has less spin and is worse for volleys.
     
    Last edited: Nov 26, 2012
  14. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2010
    Messages:
    3,602
    Location:
    Baseline
    This question of wristbands increasing SW is interesting, especially in hot weather as they can absorb a lot of weight in sweat.

    In another thread I noted that while SW calculators such as TW's show virtually no increase in SW when adding mass towards the butt cap I've felt a loss in maneuverability and RHS speed when adding mass there. I've also noticed an increase in RHS when reducing weight near the butt cap and under the grip.

    Since a consistent stroke means NOT usng the wrist alone and instead using the shoulders and core to swing it stands to reason that an increase in mass anywhere on the frame and even the wrist will reduce RHS. The effect will still be greater towards 12 but still of significance near the butt and even the wrist.

    In other words, these SW calculations (eg TW's) using a point on the handle as a reference point are wrong imo. They don't match real-world experience and they don't make sense based on a proper swing as opposed to a wristy-swing.
     
  15. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    My racket was measured by RDC machine and is naturally at my optimal mgr/i. I just wonder if a wristband has negative effects. I think wristbands slow down swingspeed, and I would have to make my racket more head heavy to achieve optimal mgr/i.

    Travlerajm, do you agree that for unleaded racket, wristbands will have a negative impact on performance?

    From what I've read, a more head-heavy racket is less comfortable, has less spin and is worse for volleys.
     
  16. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,443
    The MgR/I value determines how fast your racquet pivots about the wrist axis during the first part of your swing. If you wear a wrist band, it slows down the rate at which your arm rotates forward during the first part of the forward swing, such that the relative rate of the racquet becomes noticeably faster compared to that of the hand, which will noticeably affect your timing provided you are using a relaxed wrist and not applying a significant couple from the wrist. However, the difference in arm speed is unlikely to have a noticeable effect on the absolute swingspeed.

    For the record, I am neither pro wristband nor against. However, I recommend that once you find a racquet and optimize its balance for your swing, it is essential to be cognizant that a wristband can affect your timing, and it's best to stick with one way or the other.
     
    Last edited: Apr 13, 2013
  17. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    998
    someone help me here. I do not get whether this discussion about wristband vs. no-wristband is serious or just in jest??
     
  18. travlerajm

    travlerajm Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2006
    Messages:
    4,443
    The wristband talk is serious, and the data in the other thread referenced in the OP backs it up... the discussion of g at different latitudes, not so serious.
     
  19. jmnk

    jmnk Professional

    Joined:
    Jul 1, 2009
    Messages:
    998
    could you kindly quote the exact post from those threads that provides any scientific data backing up your wristband adjustment theory?

    i mean other than your own made up claim "a 0.2 'correction factor' has been added to the MgR/I value for all players found to be wearing wrist bands during matches in their peak years (or when the measurement was taken). The correction factor is needed to account for the extra weight of the band, determined to be 0.2 based on the effect of wearing a standard size wrist band on optimum MgR/I value when tuning my own racquets against a wall."

    i mean this is beyond silly.....
     
  20. DNShade

    DNShade Professional

    Joined:
    Jun 8, 2007
    Messages:
    1,198
    Location:
    Hollywood Hills and San Luis Obispo (home of TW)
    Amazingly enough -- they are serious.

    Although I think the entire thread should be viewed in jest.

    Maybe people should -- I don't know -- get out on the court and hit some balls.

    That's how you get better.

    This is just crazy - crazy ****.
     
    Power Player likes this.
  21. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Okay thanks. I always thought I would have to go lower swingweight if I wore wristbands. Clearly it was all in my head.

    I will optimise my mgr/i with wristbands and without, then see which setup I prefer.
     
  22. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    What if you wore the wristband slightly further up the arm so that it wasn't affecting the pivot point of the wrist?
     
  23. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    I was thinking the same thing. I wear a wristband on the forearm.

    Travlerajm, are you still planning on publishing a book about your findings?
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  24. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    I know it's a bit off topic, but I can't see the point of a sweatband. I never wear one. It's only going to stop sweat rolling down your arm onto your hand, but the hand itself sweats. The sweatband can't stop that. I feel it heats up the area and you end up sweating more. Why not just use a towel, then you can dry the whole area?
     
  25. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Like a lot of people, I sweat in between points. As you can't reach for the towel in between points, I need an alternative. Otherwise I get sweat in my eyes and my vision is impaired.
     
  26. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    Why can't you have a towel behind the baseline and use it between points? If it's sweat coming into your eyes then why not use a headband?
     
  27. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Good point. I think headbands look silly, though
     
    Last edited: Nov 29, 2012
  28. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Travlerajm, can I tune my racket on court by rallying with a partner.

    Thanks
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  29. cmendez79

    cmendez79 Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Nov 5, 2009
    Messages:
    437
    Hi travlerajm,

    I have one question, whats the formula to adjust a one backhand, its the same MrR/I= 21?
     
  30. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    deleted...
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  31. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    bump......
     
  32. Crisp

    Crisp Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    640
    I think I have worked out my mgR/I correctly someone please advise if this is correct
    Rack: pacific 90 stock
    326+(20x.34x32.4)-(100x.34)=517.92
    (.32x980.5x32.4)/517.92=MGR/I of 19.62

    Can anyone confirm as I am terrible at math and have done my best with what I know or have picked up on the formula used to find mgr/I ???


    Now how much weight will need to be added at 7" to get to 21? Can anyone help with this part??? Sorry to be such a pain. It's an interesting concept but I am having trouble following it.
     
  33. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
  34. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    deleted...
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  35. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    The results are wrong! I'll assume your swingweight is 326, Mass is 340 grams, and balance is 32.4 cm.

    With calculator, first do 20 times .34 times 32.4, then minus 34 because 100 times .34 is 34 , then simply add 326. Answer is 512.32

    Now do .34 times 980.5 times 32.4 divided by 512.32. Answer is 21.08 So you are already within the optimal range !
     
  36. swfh

    swfh Rookie

    Joined:
    Aug 8, 2011
    Messages:
    347
    This stuff works. After getting to my optimal range of 21, I am playing some of my best tennis. Thanks trav
     
  37. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    deleted...
     
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
  38. Crisp

    Crisp Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2007
    Messages:
    640
    Great thanks love anet. Guess that is why a stock pacific 90 feels better than racquets I have had customized by professional racket customisers
     
  39. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Some rackets, like aerogel and exo3, claim to have increased aerodynamics. Does this affect mgr/i?

    Can arm length vary among people of the same height? Also, don't some people have more fast twitch muscle fibers then others. Doesn't this affect mgr/i?

    Is the 0.2 wristband calculation based on large wristbands? I wear a small, single wide wrist band.

    Sorry for the volume of questions. Please could you answer the quoted questions as well?

    Many thanks
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  40. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Bump. Hope travlerajm isn't on a TW sabbatical.
     
  41. mykoh

    mykoh Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Messages:
    383
    lol newyorkstadium, you are one persistent person.

    no. the equation does not include variables in air pressure/temp /resistance.

    of course..

    again, the equation does not factor this variable in.

    however all these variables should be taken into account which therefore means there is a range of mgr/i values (clustered around 21) which is the correct mgr/i value for each person. you just have to find yours.
     
  42. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    So, there is no one-size-fits-all mgr/i value by height. Everyone needs to find their own mgr/i by tuning?

    Can I tune my racket on court by rallying with a partner?
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  43. mykoh

    mykoh Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2012
    Messages:
    383
    that is affirmative. you just have to find your perfect MgR/I value. 21 just happens to be a good point to start off of.

    i would think rallying with a partner's fine. just keep your wrists relaxed and try and hit targets during the rally. if you find yourself missing a little left or right then you may require tuning.
     
  44. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Thanks. Final question.

    What if you wore the wristband slightly further up the arm, so that it wasn't affecting the pivot point of the wrist? Would it still affect mgr/i?
     
    Last edited: Dec 5, 2012
  45. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    In the past, I have followed travlerajm's predicted mgr/i values for my height. They have only slightly helped. I am hoping working out my mgr/i, via tuning on court, will see a significant improvement. I will post the results on here.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2012
  46. Love Anet

    Love Anet New User

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2011
    Messages:
    18
    It's a good idea to keep things in perspective. You obviously need a racquet to play the game so you may as well have the most ideal racquet possible, but this doesn't mean your game is going to skyrocket to new levels. You have to improve your technique for that to happen.

    For example, if I had the "perfect racquet" and I was playing Roger Federer who was using a crummy old wooden racquet, then he's still going to whip me easily. But say I was playing someone equal in ability to myself, or say I was playing a clone of myself, then I'd probably beat my clone, because I would have an edge as far as equipment is concerned. More importantly, I can enjoy the game more because I'm not "fighting" with the racquet, I can swing how I naturally want to swing. The racquet is in sync with what I'm doing.
     
  47. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    This is extremely true. I need to spend many hours on the court to hone my technique, once I've sorted my mgr/i.
     
  48. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    deleted...
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  49. JohnB

    JohnB Rookie

    Joined:
    Jun 16, 2012
    Messages:
    197
    Since you are trying to contact Travlerajm without success, I'll try to answer some questions

    Does air pressure/temp have an impact on mgr/i?

    I don't think so.

    Arm length can vary among people of the same height. Some people have more fast twitch muscle fibers then others. Also muscle mass affects mgr/i. Bearing all of this in mind, shouldn't everybody find their own mgr/i?

    It's about the natural pendulum frequency of the arm. I think the weight and lenght of the arm are the factors that determine that frequency. So the mass influences the Mgr/I (that's why the wristband theory comes in play)

    According to Travlerajm, you apply force in your forehand stroke when your arm is almost at the lowest point. The musclefibres influences the accelleration in a forward direction. At the beginning of the forehand where you allow gravity the let the racket drop, your supposed to be relaxed. So I don't think they play a part in Mgri/I.

    Using a smaller grip size is said to give you more wrist snap/range of motion in your stroke, allowing more spin on serves and groundstrokes. I'm sure you're aware of this trend. However, mgr/i seems to be about using a relaxed wrist. What is your opinion on grip size?

    Mgr/I is indeed about using a relaxed wrist. Players who use a whippier stroke tend to have lower Mgr/I and thinner grips. With thicker grips it's more difficult to whip upwards.

    Cheers[/QUOTE]

    I found it is best to tune on court with a playing partner who doesn't mind interruptions.
     
  50. newyorkstadium

    newyorkstadium Semi-Pro

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2012
    Messages:
    585
    Could you expand on this please? Are you confident they don't have an impact?

    Arm length and muscle mass can vary among people of the same height. Bearing this in mind, shouldn't everybody find there own mgr/i? Again, are you confident that fast twitch fibres don't have an impact?

    So does grip size matter if your mgr/i is optimal? I've read it improves spin and serves. I've also read that it improves shot's on the stretch, due to improved wrist range of motion.

    Some rackets, like aerogel and exo3, claim to have increased air resistance. Does this affect mgr/i?

    This is travlerajm's view on wristbands. What if you wore the wristband slightly further up the arm, so that it wasn't affecting the pivot point of the wrist? Would it still affect mgr/i?
     
    Last edited: Dec 23, 2012

Share This Page