Outclassed at 4.0 (set video)

dimkin

Hall of Fame
A lot of people look like completely different players when just hitting. That's why just hitting means nothing, it's what you do when playing points that counts.

It really depends on what you are looking for from tennis ... for me winning is a small part of it - to me tennis is a game of grace, power and beauty - we watch the pros play and in our minds we want to think that ... on that one occasion even I can hit (and look) like Roger or Marat ... or (I guess in your case - like Rafa?) ... that's what hitting provides - you can relax, find the flow of the technique ... Tennis is a beautiful game ... techniques are complex and difficult to put together ... it;s really like a dance ... and people dance (and learn to dance) not to win points - but to enjoy the flow of it ...

Sure point play is important, and this year I am going to have more match play (if the shoulder holds) then I've done before (I do need better competition, hopefully the USTA Team play and the 4.5 league (I guess most guys are really strong 4.0s there) should provide that.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
It really depends on what you are looking for from tennis ... for me winning is a small part of it - to me tennis is a game of grace, power and beauty - we watch the pros play and in our minds we want to think that ... on that one occasion even I can hit (and look) like Roger or Marat ... or (I guess in your case - like Rafa?) ... that's what hitting provides - you can relax, find the flow of the technique ... Tennis is a beautiful game ... techniques are complex and difficult to put together ... it;s really like a dance ... and people dance (and learn to dance) not to win points - but to enjoy the flow of it ...

Sure point play is important, and this year I am going to have more match play (if the shoulder holds) then I've done before (I do need better competition, hopefully the USTA Team play and the 4.5 league (I guess most guys are really strong 4.0s there) should provide that.

No doubt it can be fun to just hit around and try and groove your strokes. Up until the last few years I would only hit around like that with my wife. If I was hitting with anyone else I would warm up for 10 minutes and play sets, but now I have a few hitting partners that many times we will just rally for a good hour or so and I really enjoy this form of practice now.

Like you said it depends on what you want from tennis. I like to compete and see how well I can do under pressure when it counts, to me that is what all that practice on grooving your strokes is for. I know some guys that never play points they just go out and hit, they sit back and blast the ball not really caring if only 60% of their shots are in or not. They are like hey look at how hard I hit the ball I'm a big time hitter, I've had some even tell me that I don't hit hard enough and I use to much spin and blah blah.

On a few rare occasions I have talked a couple of these big ball bashers into playing me and it usually ends up like 2 and 2 and through in a short period of time. Of coarse they won't play me again instead they go back to their ball bashing partner and feed their ego with their mindless ball bashing. It's easy to hit hard when you are only getting 50% of your shots in and there are no points involved, but the real skill comes when you can execute attacking shots in the heat of a match.
 

coupergear

Professional
A lot of people look like completely different players when just hitting. That's why just hitting means nothing, it's what you do when playing points that counts.
Agree. Exactly what was predicted on the hitting vid thread. Once scoreboard is on, little ability to handle variety or different balls--mostly just the wheelhouse rallies. Game breaks down against any decent consistency with variety.


NTRP LEVEL: 3.5

This player has achieved improved stroke dependability with directional control on moderate shots, but still lacks depth, variety and the ability to alter distance of shots. The effective use of lobs, overheads, approach shots, and volleys is limited due to a lack of confidence. This player is more comfortable at the net, has improved court awareness, and is developing teamwork in doubles.

Potential limitations or strengths: “This is the level at which it begins to be about what skills a player can display on court, not what they can’t.” Players at this level may start to utilize mental skills related to concentration, tactics and strategy.


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coupergear

Professional
It really depends on what you are looking for from tennis ... for me winning is a small part of it - to me tennis is a game of grace, power and beauty - we watch the pros play and in our minds we want to think that ... on that one occasion even I can hit (and look) like Roger or Marat ... or (I guess in your case - like Rafa?) ... that's what hitting provides - you can relax, find the flow of the technique ... Tennis is a beautiful game ... techniques are complex and difficult to put together ... it;s really like a dance ... and people dance (and learn to dance) not to win points - but to enjoy the flow of it ...

Sure point play is important, and this year I am going to have more match play (if the shoulder holds) then I've done before (I do need better competition, hopefully the USTA Team play and the 4.5 league (I guess most guys are really strong 4.0s there) should provide that.
Great post, this really gives a better sense of what you're looking to get out of as a player. those practice Champion baseline rallies seem to be what you enjoy the most which is fine being able to bang and look good on several points is cool.

I think there are a lot of players in this boat. style points matter more than winning.



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coupergear

Professional
No doubt it can be fun to just hit around and try and groove your strokes. Up until the last few years I would only hit around like that with my wife. If I was hitting with anyone else I would warm up for 10 minutes and play sets, but now I have a few hitting partners that many times we will just rally for a good hour or so and I really enjoy this form of practice now.

Like you said it depends on what you want from tennis. I like to compete and see how well I can do under pressure when it counts, to me that is what all that practice on grooving your strokes is for. I know some guys that never play points they just go out and hit, they sit back and blast the ball not really caring if only 60% of their shots are in or not. They are like hey look at how hard I hit the ball I'm a big time hitter, I've had some even tell me that I don't hit hard enough and I use to much spin and blah blah.

On a few rare occasions I have talked a couple of these big ball bashers into playing me and it usually ends up like 2 and 2 and through in a short period of time. Of coarse they won't play me again instead they go back to their ball bashing partner and feed their ego with their mindless ball bashing. It's easy to hit hard when you are only getting 50% of your shots in and there are no points involved, but the real skill comes when you can execute attacking shots in the heat of a match.
Clash of styles. I think you and Dunkin on opposite ends of spectrum...pretty strokes guy vs win ugly guy. Pros and cons to both. Ultimately the pros have pretty strokes, so there is that. Not that most guys ever get there, but the aspirational aspect is real.

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tlm

G.O.A.T.
Clash of styles. I think you and Dunkin on opposite ends of spectrum...pretty strokes guy vs win ugly guy. Pros and cons to both. Ultimately the pros have pretty strokes, so there is that. Not that most guys ever get there, but the aspirational aspect is real.

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Your probably right, I use what I have to win with even though it may be ugly. But I have beat many a player that has worked endlessly to have pretty strokes but come game time those strokes break down often. Plus some of these guys have spent
a lot more time polishing their strokes instead of actually playing matches which hurts them against players that compete a lot.

I know my strokes are not very graceful but I don't think they are as ugly as many here claim. Here is a clip of my forehand which I know its not beautiful for sure but I don't think its that bad, the difference being I can swing out and still hit the ball in the court consistently.
Copy of Copy of My Movie 5
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
exactly what I expected. Thanks for playing :D

I looked.

- seems serves are best shots for both nice depth spin and consistency.
- both in great shape and are willing to run all day.
- seems one guy is definitely better off the ground especially of the backhand wing.
- both are consistent and keep the ball in play well.
- angles are lacking as is pace. Both are on the pusher scale though the better guy is moving beyond that.

- angles are predictable and pace is on the low end of the spectrum somewhat allowing them to get to the balls.

Better guy could have some success at 4.0 but would struggle against the stronger spectrum. The other guy has room to grow but a good foundation is in place.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
Your probably right, I use what I have to win with even though it may be ugly. But I have beat many a player that has worked endlessly to have pretty strokes but come game time those strokes break down often. Plus some of these guys have spent
a lot more time polishing their strokes instead of actually playing matches which hurts them against players that compete a lot.

I know my strokes are not very graceful but I don't think they are as ugly as many here claim. Here is a clip of my forehand which I know its not beautiful for sure but I don't think its that bad, the difference being I can swing out and still hit the ball in the court consistently.
Copy of Copy of My Movie 5

Tennis does not award style points. They keep score for a reason. A lot of people have trouble with the concept of standing on the opposite end of the court from someone and trying to defeat them. Those who have done it know there are few things sweeter.
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
Tennis does not award style points. They keep score for a reason. A lot of people have trouble with the concept of standing on the opposite end of the court from someone and trying to defeat them. Those who have done it know there are few things sweeter.

I hear you. Grit, however, can take one thus far. Proper technique and countless repetitions helps us out. I do believe my game improved a ton since even a year ago this was a year ago:
and 15 months ago:


and this is now:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-Bhc2dXX2dGV2JGNFU

and grooving strokes without pressure of playing points is a HUGE training tool, even if it's sometimes going for too much ...
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
(I am in the gray shirt) ... my read on the opponent ... 4.5+ fh, 4.5+ serve ... 4.0 bh ... great movement ... I felt I was hardly in the points - sometimes you just run into someone better ... tough ... made my share of errors and missed easy shots, but that's part of being a 4.0 :(


https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-BhUkkxNnlLdXRFdDA
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-BhbGJoN1Vfazh1SmM

I looked at the first video. In my view, the biggest difference between your opponent and you is that he thinks he's better than you and you think he's better than you. He plays up to his expectations, and you play down to your expectations. There is much between you two in terms of stroke production. When you move your feet, get into position and execute your shots, they are as good as his from what I can see in this video. My advice is to focus on executing your shots one shot at a time, make high percentage shot selections, and put everything else (including your opinion about who is 4.5, 4.0, the score, etc.), out of your mind. If you do that, you can beat this guy.

Beautiful indoor clay courts, BTW. Lucky you.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Tennis does not award style points. They keep score for a reason. A lot of people have trouble with the concept of standing on the opposite end of the court from someone and trying to defeat them. Those who have done it know there are few things sweeter.

I agree and know exactly what you mean, but I also know all to well that you have to take a lot of lumps when you play competitive league matches. But it make you a better player and it also makes it that much sweeter when you do win.
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
I looked at the first video. In my view, the biggest difference between your opponent and you is that he thinks he's better than you and you think he's better than you. He plays up to his expectations, and you play down to your expectations. There is much between you two in terms of stroke production. When you move your feet, get into position and execute your shots, they are as good as his from what I can see in this video. My advice is to focus on executing your shots one shot at a time, make high percentage shot selections, and put everything else (including your opinion about who is 4.5, 4.0, the score, etc.), out of your mind. If you do that, you can beat this guy.

Beautiful indoor clay courts, BTW. Lucky you.

I will try ...
This is Johny Mac's Tennis Academy @ Randall's Island ... costs an arm and a leg to be a member (I am not)
but USTA gets some time slots from them, so yeah - in this way we are indeed lucky - those are the best hartrus I've played on
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I hear you. Grit, however, can take one thus far. Proper technique and countless repetitions helps us out. I do believe my game improved a ton since even a year ago this was a year ago:
and 15 months ago:


and this is now:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5_cZw7_z-Bhc2dXX2dGV2JGNFU

and grooving strokes without pressure of playing points is a HUGE training tool, even if it's sometimes going for too much ...

I agree I spend much more time grooming my strokes by just rallying than what I did in the past. Like tonight me and my hitting partner just hit for an hour then we played one game to 21 and called it a night. Your right about going for to much in practice also because that is the way to improve your aggressive shots.

I also enjoy just hitting with no point pressure and even though my strokes are unorthodox I have gained a lot from just hitting around. But I still need to play some real sets even if they are just pick up matches, I like to test and see if all the hitting practice is helping my game.
 

RetroSpin

Hall of Fame
Proper technique and countless repetitions helps us out.

I hope I'm not coming across as adick or being overly critical. I realize you don't live in florida and probably cannot play 5 times a week, so consistency and footwork are going to be issues. But what I am seeing in these videos is a pretty decent practice player who isn't bringing the same game to a match.

I agree with Limpin that you looked a guy who thought he should lose. The other guy certainly looked like the pro from Central Casting( I particularly loved the pro headband). But the fact was he made lots of errors and gave you a lot of short balls to attack. If you go out for a 4.0 match and the other guy starts off hitting shots like DelPotro, the tendency is to pack it in. In reality he's "treeing", ie playing way above his true level. If he were really that good, he'd be playing Open level, not 4.0, the occasional sand bagger notwithstanding.
 

Ninjamaster

New User
If you want my .02 on your game.

In one word, Depth. In 4.0 tennis people know how to hit the ball back consistently and can move side to side pretty well. Most 4.0 I have rallied with does not have the concept of depth down. It looks like your match is no different. It seems like both of you and your opponent are a little slow to react on incoming short balls.

Groundstrokes:
the difference between you and your opponent was that your placement on almost all your shots were short, which is the reason why you felt like you were outclassed. You gave him a lot of opportunities place them far from you. Your ground strokes should never land before the the service line, it should always be deeper. If I see a ball bounce before the service line, I will attack that ball, and put it in a spot where the opponent will have to reach for the ball, which will be another short ball for me to capitalize on.

Approach shots:
Your read on your opponent on direction is already solid. Your judgment on whether a ball is coming to your forehand or your backhand is already second nature. Now your main goal is to make depth perception a second nature to you as well. When the ball leaves your opponents racquet think about where the ball is going to land and immediately move to it. You can improve your game by reacting to approach/chance shots better simply be judging where the ball is bouncing on your court. Approach shots should be a very aggressive shot, since you are coming up to the net, the opponents court opens up for you. Your angles can be a lot steeper and shorter, especially with the spin you are already putting on the ball.
*on a side note, I noticed that you come in to volley sometimes. Although that is a good strategy, I think your timing is incorrect. If you want to go and volley, you need to have hit an aggressive shot before coming into the net, once again to put your opponent in a defensive position, for you to have a floating chance shot. If your opponent has a sitting ground stroke (and the player is half decent) you will be passed everytime if you are at net. There are many times, when I will move back to the baseline after an approach shot if I think my ball was not an aggressive enough shot.

It seems like right now you are trying to outrally the opponent, which is a pretty standard 4.0 game, but to step it up, start practicing hitting the balls in the furthest quarter of the court closest to their baseline. Try to notice how you hit balls that are deep on your side of the court, they will almost be defensive simply becasue of your court positioning, and even if you happen to be far back enough to hit a good ball they will end up short on your opponents side because of the amount of space your ball has to travel, which means a half decent player will be able to put it away.

The Practice:
I will do away with baseline down the middle hitting (like your video). I know its more fun, but whenever I do it I feel it builds bad habits. When you are rallying make it all practice to improve your game. As in only hit cross court (DEEP) or down the line on one of the sides of the court. Down the middle practice is deceiving because you are rallying on the lowest point of the net. Pay attention to where your hitting partners ball are landing, If your rally partner hits a ball that lands before the service line, approach and crush the ball in the direction you are rallying, and if they get it back volley practice until miss. Then go back to the baseline.

Once you have depth down when you play a tennis match, you will notice all you need to do is strategize between cross court and down the line, to try to put them out of position to CRUSH THEM with a final shot.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
I will try ...
This is Johny Mac's Tennis Academy @ Randall's Island ... costs an arm and a leg to be a member (I am not)
but USTA gets some time slots from them, so yeah - in this way we are indeed lucky - those are the best hartrus I've played on

Focus on your footwork and shot preparation (try to get into perfect set-up position with the ball in your strike zone every time), and fully executing your shots. Footwork and shot preparation are the keys to consistency.

Some tactical tips: your primary target from the back court should be the cross court corner. Be patient and be mentally prepared to get into cross court rallies for as long as it takes to get a short ball that you can attack and hit into the open court. If he tries to redirect your cross-court shot down the line, hit it cross-court to the other side and get him on the run. Hit your first serves out wide to open up the court, and change it up once in a while (down the middle or right at him), if he starts anticipating the wide serve, to keep him honest. Hit your second serves to his weakness.
 

dimkin

Hall of Fame
If you want my .02 on your game.

In one word, Depth. In 4.0 tennis people know how to hit the ball back consistently and can move side to side pretty well. Most 4.0 I have rallied with does not have the concept of depth down. It looks like your match is no different. It seems like both of you and your opponent are a little slow to react on incoming short balls.

Groundstrokes:
the difference between you and your opponent was that your placement on almost all your shots were short, which is the reason why you felt like you were outclassed. You gave him a lot of opportunities place them far from you. Your ground strokes should never land before the the service line, it should always be deeper. If I see a ball bounce before the service line, I will attack that ball, and put it in a spot where the opponent will have to reach for the ball, which will be another short ball for me to capitalize on.

Approach shots:
Your read on your opponent on direction is already solid. Your judgment on whether a ball is coming to your forehand or your backhand is already second nature. Now your main goal is to make depth perception a second nature to you as well. When the ball leaves your opponents racquet think about where the ball is going to land and immediately move to it. You can improve your game by reacting to approach/chance shots better simply be judging where the ball is bouncing on your court. Approach shots should be a very aggressive shot, since you are coming up to the net, the opponents court opens up for you. Your angles can be a lot steeper and shorter, especially with the spin you are already putting on the ball.
*on a side note, I noticed that you come in to volley sometimes. Although that is a good strategy, I think your timing is incorrect. If you want to go and volley, you need to have hit an aggressive shot before coming into the net, once again to put your opponent in a defensive position, for you to have a floating chance shot. If your opponent has a sitting ground stroke (and the player is half decent) you will be passed everytime if you are at net. There are many times, when I will move back to the baseline after an approach shot if I think my ball was not an aggressive enough shot.

It seems like right now you are trying to outrally the opponent, which is a pretty standard 4.0 game, but to step it up, start practicing hitting the balls in the furthest quarter of the court closest to their baseline. Try to notice how you hit balls that are deep on your side of the court, they will almost be defensive simply becasue of your court positioning, and even if you happen to be far back enough to hit a good ball they will end up short on your opponents side because of the amount of space your ball has to travel, which means a half decent player will be able to put it away.

The Practice:
I will do away with baseline down the middle hitting (like your video). I know its more fun, but whenever I do it I feel it builds bad habits. When you are rallying make it all practice to improve your game. As in only hit cross court (DEEP) or down the line on one of the sides of the court. Down the middle practice is deceiving because you are rallying on the lowest point of the net. Pay attention to where your hitting partners ball are landing, If your rally partner hits a ball that lands before the service line, approach and crush the ball in the direction you are rallying, and if they get it back volley practice until miss. Then go back to the baseline.

Once you have depth down when you play a tennis match, you will notice all you need to do is strategize between cross court and down the line, to try to put them out of position to CRUSH THEM with a final shot.

This is awesome advice - I will be playing a lot more matches this year (I think the shoulder can handle it + I am very close on being automatic with the kicker out wide (I can angle it into the body as well)) so now time to work on that recognition (and the return of serve) ...
 
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