OZ Open and Frenchmen.. where are the Americans

Discussion in 'Junior League & Tournament Talk' started by SoCal10s, Jan 20, 2013.

  1. SoCal10s

    SoCal10s Hall of Fame

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    I'm watching the Aussie Open and seeing Frenchies everywhere... what is the French Tennis federation doing so right ? can the USTA copy ? it looks like France and Spain even to some extent Australia are putting up some decent players for the near future..
     
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  2. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    True. Russian women are doing well, too.

    I like the well-rounded game of the French and Spanish guys. We are starting to teach that again in the US.

    But there are so many strikes against us.
    not enough clay, too much emphasis on winning in the early age groups, limited type of game, most of our best athletes play something other than tennis here, impatience/short attention span, weak work ethic.
     
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  3. Rina

    Rina Rookie

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    I think it truly is the lack of proper instruction. From all I've observed US coaches are not correcting kids enough at all, and if they are correcting they do it once in a while and talk about it after. That is not how you do it imo. My son has trained in Europe and in any small club the coach will stand in the middle during match play and direct them constantly, demands corrections, power, even gets a bit angry if they seem to be losing attention or hitting poorly. During drills you need to be constantly correcting the technique, "elbow, up, elbow up, if you don't want to hit the net get that elbow up!" I know you shouldn't think all the time while training, but this becomes a reflex after a while with kids, and they no longer think about it, they do it. Here in the States, my son will play an hour without a coach saying anything(at a very good academy), likely not even watching. Why is this? Coddling the children(customer), afraid of confrontation, lazy, different teaching styles? I believe that complete difference in parenting is the reason, parents in Europe are not upset with the coach doing his job and usually will ask the kid, well what did you do wrong and here many parents will take the kid's side.
     
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  4. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Your points are all true, but this one is the best^
    Lame American parenting. Weak kids. Wuss coaches. The strong kids gravitate toward other sports, sadly.

    Like everyone else right now, I blame Lance. Oh, and Oprah, too.
     
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  5. SoCal10s

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    s b/h c: IDK about that.. some of those Frenchies didn't look too athletic ,yeah maybe you can say Tsonga and Monfils are ,but not the others..plus Tsonga has always looked out of shape to me,up until this year... but those 2 are like mental midgets ...

    Rina : I have to agree with you here on the coaching part... I grew up with R.Lansdrops and that's what he did to us.. that's what made him and his students successful .. he is not en vogue now because America has to be so political correct in everything we all do.. if he verbally abused a child now-a -days he'll get sued..(I think he was already).. but growing up with he B.S. set you straight ,I found out later that he's really a *****cat deep down.. he just has a passion for caring for his students .. but of coarse R.L. has the best eyes to see the finest details of your strokes ,and he's the best ball feeder in the business ..
     
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  6. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    So political correctness destroyed american tennis now - deluded, in the extreme!
     
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  7. Overdrive

    Overdrive Legend

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    This is exactly true. Here, I'm honestly getting poor coaching and little to no attention when playing me against better players. :mad:

    When I train to become a coach, I won't let this happen to my future pupils.:grin:
     
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  8. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I can't speak for Europe but junior tennis is America is not about player development, it is about money. The 2 are in direct conflict. To develop into a pro a junior needs a dedicated coach who spends a lot of time with him/her. It is not "income attractive" to the coach. What I also see is that in private lessons the coaches are good- fully engaged. However, most of the playing comes in "clinics" or "tournament training". In these the coaches are not fully engaged and do not, for the most past, critique and correct.
     
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  9. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    With all that great coaching, there are tons of Europeans who are desperate to get into a US college to play tennis and get an education. Obviously, the European system is good for producing a few great pros (and that may be a cyclic thing too) but the rest of them don't seem to be able to balance education and sports.

    Maybe the European kids can bear all the criticism because the serious ones like Fed and Nadal drop out of school at 16 years. If you had to go home and do homework and compete academically, you would also not take kindly to a harsh coach. If you have nothing else to do and plan to send your video to a US college, sure you will tolerate it.
     
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  10. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    When the Fab 4 were on the top, American parenting must have been great. Then it suddenly dropped. American juniors did not know to keep their elbow up or whatever. It happened suddenly.
     
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  11. Rina

    Rina Rookie

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    That was just my opinion, clearly there will be superb players no matter the background or the country. There are great coaches in the US as well, it is just hard to find them sometimes. But, I do see a huge shift in parenting in US in the last two decades. The "I come first" attitude has had a positive and a negative contribution in all aspects of life and work.
     
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  12. Rina

    Rina Rookie

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    I thought this thread was about making the pros? As for US tennis, I don't think it is bad at all, there are 7 players in the top 100, France has 10. Doesn't the need to justify lack of "more" top players comes from our own perception?
     
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  13. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    It is a global sport now and much more affordable. Martina was discussing this exact same topic last night. She attributed it to globalization and affordability. It is naive to think that a country with a population of China cannot top the US in sports once affordability and exposure increase even further. She mentioned Africa as a continent which has much latent potential (apart from S. Africa). Once they get into the swing of things, it will be even more global. The days when only one country was good at a particular thing are gone. The only exception will be the US military, which is so far ahead of everyone else that no one is ever going to catch up.
     
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  14. Misterbill

    Misterbill Semi-Pro

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    Well, this is a little off-topic, but I can always say that someone else started it.

    The quoted sentiment reminds me of what the British....and the Romans before them......also thought. I think military might is correlated more to economic strength than any other single factor
     
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  15. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Yes, American parents looking/expecting instant gratification.
     
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  16. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    France has more serious tennis players than America. They take the game more seriously.
    France's centralized national sports school/program identifies promising juniors early.

    Spain, slowing of all courts, (hard, grass) suites their "grinding" style of play.

    American style is and should always be the "attacking" game, slow courts work against us.

    American coaches have no passion for the game anymore, they are more concerned about the, "ALMIGHTY DOLLAR".
     
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  17. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Who would be a group of people who are not concerned about the almighty dollar?
     
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  18. SoCal10s

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    crazy freeking artist who works towards their passion and those who already have .. instead of those who feel that it's never enough ...
     
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  19. Tennishacker

    Tennishacker Professional

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    Pope, BB, teachers and those trying to improve the life of the less fortunate.
     
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  20. maggmaster

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    Plus the French have an open tournament circuit which brings together their junior and senior top level players. The tennis federation provides prize money and they are condensed within a relatively small geographic area. US focuses on junior only competition that is age divided, I am not sure that is the best way.
     
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  21. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    GLOBAL NOW ? Martina a Chek I believe 70's and 80's player right ? or was it Boris Becker a German 80's player ? or Natase 70's or Borg Sweeden 70's and 80's ?

    When did this sport go global ? Or when did America stop spanking their kids and being tough on them ? over the last 30 to 40 years and now where seeing the by product of coddling our sweet ,full of self esteem ,dont say anything negative to them lest you hurt their feelings children .
     
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  22. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    SPOT ON !!!!
     
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  23. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    So nobody to whom tennis coaches can be compared to.

    I would then say it is not an issue at all.
     
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  24. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Don't believe me, ask Martina. She gave many examples, including reading off a list of different countries. She said her name was exotic when she played, today she is the norm. I would say she knows something about yesterday's and today's game.
     
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  25. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    I have looked at old ranking list and all the way back to the 60's there were players from all over the globe meaning "global" ,what has happened is simple population has exploded countries have better economy's and there are more kids from different country's that are "striving" and tend to be all business ,

    we on the other hand have become less of a manufacturing powerhouse and it has now trickled down to our children ,, TRY this go find 10 college graduates give them a car vacuum and watch how many can do and even decent job at this simple task ,trust me I have seen 3 different grads attempt this and its pretty sad the results I watched .
     
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  26. TCF

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    ==========================
     
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  27. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    I have been hearing this for a very long time now. Kids used to be able to do chores, shop for groceries, fix stuff, girls used to know how to cook and sew, etc. My mother used to say this to me when I was a kid. But the world has changed. It is now more valuable to spend time on academics (or tennis) rather than develop these skills. You can always pay someone to do it. There was a time when a man had to be able to repair a car. A real man was seen working under the car every weekend. Today, he is probably better off doing something in that time to make extra bucks or enhance his job related education, and get a mechanic to take care of the car.
     
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  28. Rina

    Rina Rookie

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    So should they pay somebody to play tennis in their name? I think your point of view is valid. Academics is where kids should spend their time and effort on, it is the lack of effort that is the problem. In tennis it relates to lack of effort from the kids and often from the coach as well.
     
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  29. TCF

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    ==========================
     
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  30. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    The reality is that tennis is just an enjoyable form of manual labour and who wants to do that for a living.
     
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  31. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    How much effort can kids put? It is pretty clear now that to turn a junior into a pro-level player today requires some form of alternative schooling, along with a somewhat lesser emphasis on education overall. The days when JMac and Mary Carillo used to hit on the public courts after school and then turned into pros are over.
     
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  32. coaching32yrs

    coaching32yrs Semi-Pro

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    I believe the European "open" tournament system that mixes juniors and adults is better. American juniors do not get exposure to the very best local players, some of whom would love to hit with and give pointers to talented youngsters, at no cost to the juniors. Instead these terrific players 25-40 yrs old have no idea who the best juniors are, never see them play, never hit with them. What a waste.
     
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  33. timaru50

    timaru50 New User

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    You have hit the Nail on the head here...so very very true..I am a coach reasonable success and tells it how it is...parents shop around for a coach to hear what they want to here not that little Jonny is slack on technique! Elbow Up Elbow Up!!!!!!!
     
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  34. Number1Coach

    Number1Coach Banned

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    TCF is halfway right and so are you ,starting young in other sports you have no choice but to "develop into" and athlete , football , basketball, wrestling , boxing and most other sports right from the start as early as 8 yrs old there is physical contact THERFORE you have no choice but to develop yourself athletically or get ran over ,

    In tennis no contact ! therefore we all wait for that magical tennis genie to do something special for little johnny , OR in your case Timura50 you need to buy a magic wand so your a better coach HAHA .
     
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  35. Mitch Bridge

    Mitch Bridge Rookie

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    I see the biggest problem in turning our youth into successful touring pros is that they have to go global at 16 or 17 and most kids don't want to give up their lifestyles in order to do that. As the average age of successful touring pros grows, our players will be able to go to some college first, which is most kid's first goal, then play professionally. Kids know that they are missing out on a huge experience, one they have thought about since elementary school, by not going to college.

    The US has a ton of 20-23 year olds that are very strong players coming through the pipeline right now. Only country with more male players in the top 300 is France, and if we were located in Europe near so much pro tennis activity, we would have the most.
     
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  36. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    ^^^^ Exactly. There is nothing "normal" about giving up the last years of high school, not going to college, essentially becoming independent, and doing nothing but tennis. I don't see why that is glorified so much. On the one hand, we always hear about the "life lessons" of tennis and how it is a lifetime sport, and on the other, we admire people leading unbalanced lives when barely out of school. The sporting structure is rooted in the past when high school was a good achievement. Today, college is the new high school. Even in the worst part of the recession, unemployment rate of college grads was less than half the overall rate, and that includes the many college grads with liberal art majors.
     
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  37. slice bh compliment

    slice bh compliment G.O.A.T.

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    Nice experiment. It's been said that this generation cannot gut a cantaloupe let alone gut a fish.

    Now, lots of average HS kids cannot write a simple 3 paragraph persuasive essay without looking like imbeciles.
    Most of them cannot find Missouri on a map. Iran or Korea? Whatevs, man, that's why they make like apps for that and stuff, scro.
     
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  38. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    They also don't know how to use slide rules or typewriters. Very sad.
     
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  39. Tree_All_Day

    Tree_All_Day New User

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    As some of you have mentioned the French Tennis Federation has a system as follows:

    ("simply" described to me by my sister in law, who is from France and played D1 tennis in the US)

    - Everyone gets evaluated and ranked (rated)
    - There is no age groups

    When you enter a tournament you are placed against someone who has a similar ranking to you, if you win the match, you play someone who has a slightly higher ranking than you. The more you win, the better players you are exposed too.

    Someone could be rated the same level, but play each other even though one is 7 years older than the other.

    This system exposes players to many different gamestyles. You are constantly playing with someone who is as good as you or better if you work your way up. Unlike juniors now, you may have to play 2,3,4 matches before you play someone at the same level as you or someone who is better than you
    _________________________________________________________________

    Another aspect of French tennis in the juniors which I think is overlooked is about how the juniors travel to tournaments.

    Many juniors belong to a club or academy and travel to the tournaments. When they go, its almost like a competition within the group. They compete to see who can make it the farthest or who can beat someone who is ranked much higher than them who might be in their 20's and so on. From what my Sister in law described to me it seemed like a very fun way to be brought up through tennis, very competitive but the kids love it and develop a passion. They aren't just playing because mommy and daddy bring them to a tournament each weekend, they play because they love the game
     
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  40. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    The game has always been global, since it came from England to the U.S. Of course, most of the top players were from the U.S., England, France, and Australia - the only 4 countries that had won Davis Cup for most of it's history. There have always been top players from Germany, Czechoslovakia, Spain, India, and other places, though. Other than possibly becoming a big thing in China, it really isn't getting more global, except that more of the very top players are from different countries - especially former Soviet dominated countries - instead of the U.S. (and, prior to that, the UK).
     
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  41. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    What's a typewriter, pops ?
     
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  42. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    There was a time when a person could get a job after learning "typing and shorthand."
     
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  43. Sentinel

    Sentinel Bionic Poster

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    So that's how you moved to the US and spent your life avoiding giving tips :D :D j/k, pops.
     
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