Part 2 after adjustments: Please critique this 7-years old

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by carnaval09, Jul 29, 2012.

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  1. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Good day everyone! I thank everyone for the feedback to the original videos I posted months back. We've been keep practicing although not nearly as much as we used to due to the various reasons. Current court time is only up to about 10 hrs a month( about 3-4 personal lessons with a coach and the rest with me). His passion to the game never changed. My son just turned 8 a few days ago and we've got a little taller and stronger. Here is the most recent video that I shot about 4 months ago him hitting with the orange balls.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJMWoVTsdmI
    Please critique as we are striving to improve.

    Original Post:Good day to everyone here!
    Here is the part 2 of the original thread located here
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=433389
    We did some homework based on the flaws highlighted by the tennis community here.
    I thank everyone here who gave us the feedback and advice on what to concentrate on.

    For the last couple of days we concentrated on changing the FH back swing to shorten it up and keep it on the right part of the body, bringing the contact point out in front and away of his body, and the footwork. I want to ask you guys to take another look to evaluate our homework to see if we are going in the right direction. As my son is in the process of changing the back swing. He is still a little stiff which I hope will change once he gets comfortable with new movement. Also I can't get him to point his strings somewhat down in the slot position, not sure how to change that, he seems to be doing it while shadowing but once starts hitting they are pointed toward the right side of the court.
    Here is the second video of him rallying with the orange balls. Thanks for watching and leaving the feedback.


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-s25G8_zgo&feature=youtu.be
     
    Last edited: Apr 6, 2013
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  2. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Good job! Looks much better (well, i'm basing this opinion against the feedback I left in the other thread!)

    With regards to the closed racquet face in the 'slot' - if he does it in shadows, he will eventually do it for real. Keep using the process of reinforce - shadow - try, in other words help him feel the correct position statically - let him shadow the complete swing (and correct if necessary) - let him try for real with a ball. Keep repeating, concentrating on helping him feel the correct position (shadow with his eyes closed may help, so he relies on feel only - again correct the position if you need to so he can feel it). Eventually, he will find the correct the position.

    One thing that did jump out (you can see it in the slo-mo sections) - I would like to see him pronate at contact rather than after. At the moment he continues across his body for a couple of frames before rotating - he's essentially supinating through contact and then 'correcting' afterwards to achieve the finish you've no doubt asked him to find! It's hard to see without being to follow the ball flight but I would guess his ball is a bit 'pushy' and he will have difficulty learning to shape the ball with his current racquet path if he continues with it.

    His footwork looks much better, he seems to be getting behind the ball better and consequently his contact point seems more consistent.

    No backhands?


    Hope all that makes sense? Otherwise, good work!

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
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  3. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    There are several improvements, but, it seems to me that he is still setting up too close to the ball, and arming his swing rather than swinging with upper body rotation, which I think are related issues. I don't know if this is asking too much of a 7 year old. Perhaps he doesn't yet have the strength to hit with a more extended arm. But, that is something I would try to work on next.
     
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  4. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    Improvement! I would like to share a couple of key drills with you. You can e-mail me at hurewe@aol.com
     
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  5. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    He has reasonable rotation, he rotates out of the the forehand fairly well for his age! He is perhaps too close to the ball on some (but by no means all - mainly those where he has to move laterally, suggesting his spatial awareness needs developing), but he is 7 years old and his spatial awareness is still developing! Spatial awareness of actions above the eyeline doesn't even begin to develop until around the age of 8 (which is why kids find coordinating the serve so hard), so he is well within his development window The more his spatial awareness develops, he improves his positioning, the better he will be able to protect his contact point.

    Cheers
     
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  6. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    I can see that once in a while his contact changes closer to his body, but let's say if you take a look at his second FH in the latest video, I don't see anything wrong with his contact point. As far as more extended arm then his coach says that he is just not strong enough yet and it will change once he gets stronger. He turned 7 in April. He extands his arm much further when shadowing, which leads me to believe that he is just not strong enough yet. We'll see though. And I'll keep a close eye on it. Thanks.
     
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  7. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    One thing that did jump out (you can see it in the slo-mo sections) - I would like to see him pronate at contact rather than after. At the moment he continues across his body for a couple of frames before rotating - he's essentially supinating through contact and then 'correcting' afterwards to achieve the finish you've no doubt asked him to find! It's hard to see without being to follow the ball flight but I would guess his ball is a bit 'pushy' and he will have difficulty learning to shape the ball with his current racquet path if he continues with it.


    No backhands?


    Hope all that makes sense? Otherwise, good work!

    Cheers[/QUOTE]

    I am sorry but I guess I may need to clarify to make sure I understood you correctly. When you are referring to pronate at the contact, are you talking about the wrist motion ( rotating the door handle sort of motion to get around the ball) or did you mean something else.
    Backhands are coming, I want you guys to critique it as well. I just don't have a video yet. Hopefully, we can practice some tomorrow so I can take a video and post. Thanks again and I'm looking forward to your comments guys.
     
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  8. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Yes, I mean pronation from internal shoulder rotation and counter-clockwise rotation of the forearm in order to bring the racquet head up and across at contact. At the moment he 'holds' his arm position through contact and then rolls over late to achieve the finish.

    Does that make it clearer - it's hard to describe with just words :)

    Cheers
     
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  9. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Sorry to bother you again as I'm still not sure I got it. Let's brake the stroke down into smaller portions. Are you talking about forearm counter-clockwise rotation at the contact and through the contact, I'd say a sort of arch rotation of the racket head from 5 to 11 o'clock (try to simulate the brashing of the ball)? Yes, I guess it's hard to describe it. Please let me know if you think of another explanation or maybe a video outhere showing that.
     
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  10. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Yes - you've pretty much got it. The best image I can find that illustrates the start of the process...

    [​IMG]

    You can see the racquet head moving up and across and the hand moving out slightly from the point of contact as the forearm starts to roll over.

    Cheers
     
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  11. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Excellent find, Ash. Very good depiction/execution of a modern forehand finish. I also think Nalbandian has an underrated, under appreciated forehand.
     
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  12. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    And still moving to rt during stroke...but lots of great hitting for age
     
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  13. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    Good eye. Maybe that's why his turn is incomplete and he's arming the ball.

    PS: Carnaval09, IMO, as a primary shot, he should be setting up in and open stance with his weight on his right leg and transfer his weight across to his left leg as he swings. Even if he has to run to his right, if he has time to stop and plant his right foot, he should do it this way.
     
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2012
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  14. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Oh, thanks. I can't describe how much I appreciate it. I'm glad we were on the same page.
     
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  15. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    I want to clarify, are you saying that he is moving to the right ( I hope that is what rt stands for) during the stroke?
     
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  16. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Don't get me wrong. I like the open stance, but I share the same approach as his coach does - Learn the neuteral stance first. I do believe that it's a lot easier to teach a kid how to utilize hips and proper weight transfer by teaching the neuteral stance first. But I can assure you that open stance is coming next and soon. Thanks for advice.
     
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  17. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Forgot to mention. It was a lot easier for me to explain him how to use hips and transfer balance by placing him next to the heavy boxing bag. I let him practice different technique to learn how much more power he was able to generate by using his legs and hips oppose to the upper body only. He figured that out rather quickly as he could see the huge difference. I don't think it would be as easy for me to teach him doing that in the open stance.
     
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  18. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, rt is for right...some agree with you, but current balance issues & drifting rt illustrates some of why we believe strongly that open is far better to develop. No need to train power when balance & technique are there...power will just emanate.
     
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  19. ringingpeace

    ringingpeace New User

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    Hi. I saw the first video of your kid and now second video. Here is what I have noticed.

    - He is hitting to close to his body in both of your videos so you should focus more on contact point to be in front and by the side.

    - he straights his hitting arm too much in preparation for forehand which impacts on racket acceleration and to me it seems like ball is hitting his racket not vice versa.

    Improved from the first video:

    - footwork
    - split step
     
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  20. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Thanks for clarification. I think at his age balance issues and drifting are part of the learning curve and not the stance specific. It seems to me that any beginner kid will have the same issue of keeping the balance to offset the momentum (inertia) no matter what stance is used. I'm an engineer by trade so I take a scientific approach on stances, open stance for lateral movements, neuteral for vertical. Phisics is there to support it.
     
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  21. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Thanks for your feedback.
    We keep trying to change the contact point.
    I think he keeps his right arm straight and tight at this point to assure that the racquet stays on the right side of his body. I see that ss he gets more comfortable with his new take back he starts bending his elbow a little bit more. Although in general I strugle to teach him how to keep his arm and shoulder relaxed while holding/gripping the racquet properly.
    It's like either everything completely loose and racquet wobles or everything is tight. I need to come up with a teaching method for that. Any idea how to explain it to a kid:???:?
     
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  22. Playnice

    Playnice Guest

    I do have suggestions on explaining to a kid plus some effective drills. Feel free to e-mail me hurewe@aol.com.
     
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  23. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    His forehand is now somewhat "pushy." Which, I believe, is essentially what Ash described in detail. Let him pull that racket around instead of shortening things up too much. I'd try a small hammer against the heavy punching bag. Might get him the idea of coordinating the timing of the joint movements in his arm as well as forcing him to use his body.
     
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  24. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Thanks for the feedback. Could you please clarify your idea of using a small hammer against the punching bag? I'm not sure I follow you here.:???: Sorry and thanks in advance
     
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  25. CaldwellYSR

    CaldwellYSR Rookie

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    His forehand looks better than mine and I'm 21 so good for him ;)
     
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  26. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    You could us a small hammer or a stick, maybe a ruler, or anything similar. In order for him to hit the bag at maximum speed, he will have to learn to time his arm, elbow, wrist, body, etc. movements to have all the elements line up correctly as he hits the bag - he can hear and feel the difference when the timing is correct. Since it could be a pretty violent impact, don't do it a lot, you wouldn't have him pound nails all day, just enough to get the idea.
     
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  27. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    Good, you will get there eventually...just may take you longer :)
     
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  28. carnaval09

    carnaval09 New User

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    Hope not long, dont get me wrong I am not oppose the open stance by any means.
     
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  29. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

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    I apologize if I seem argumentative. I just think your vid is a great example of
    a very talented kid that would be way better served by working primarily from
    open stance, which would IMO help develop a more stable hitting base. Once that
    balanced, stable hitting is habit, then all the other stances he may be caught in
    will make use of that balanced approach to swinging.
    I'm not saying the other stances are bad and not to be used, but that the open
    is best for developing the core rotation and stable hitting style.

    Some think getting sideways helps with core, but that make little sense to me, as
    it removes the core loading that is so important to good use of the core. Open also teaches the player to use the legs more correctly as well.
     
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  30. peoplespeace

    peoplespeace Semi-Pro

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    U brought urself into this mess of a keen but now very stubborn pupil by being overly MTM positive about his kids ability sofar. And u go on saying that he is very talented which i highly doubt that u are able to see! I agree with the open stance point that u are trying to convey.

    Carnaval, you have to trust thos who say that ur kid is arming and pushing the ball. He is way way to stiff and tight. If u have to choose between him being very loose but lacking form, and having form but being too tight it is important that u choose loose with bad form and then try to build form from there. In the last thread i suggested one way of starting that process.

    If u dont know what is meant by pronation through contact then it indicates that ur knowledge is limited and from that background u seem to be doing a very decent job! But since ur knowledge is limited, at least u should give the ideas a shot even if they seem counterintuitive. This is tennis, there is so much that is counterintuitive and even hidden from the naked eye, such at eg the utter importance of being relaxed if you want to create the necessay power for tennis. And if ur first thought is that the power issue will be solved when he gets stronger, then u are again on the wrong path!

    U can fix all the various obvious issues, such as late contact, punching the ball, the stretching his legs long before contact etc etc but it will all be in vein if u have a dream of him having just a very very small chance of becomming a pro!

    Good luck!

    Btw, u say that physics tells u that neutral stance is for vertical (linear?) movement and open for lateral, right? But how come Usein Bolt isnt using neutral stance??
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2012
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  31. TW Staff

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    This thread is now closed. Due to policy changes, we no longer allow discussion of specific junior players.

    Thanks,

    TW Staff
     
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