Peak Level over Five Years

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Aug 1, 2014.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Roche was really the only one to give Laver problems among those three in the beginning. Ashe lost his first 17 against Laver and Newcombe lost I believe his first 7. But you have a point in that the old pros did not know how to play the new pros in the beginning but they did do quite well as shown in McCauley's book.
     
  2. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    of course, if Fraser, who was 4 yrs older than Rod Laver was still in good shape.But he wasn´t in the same good shape of Rosewall.His best had gone forever.
     
  3. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Well they all took sets off him at times. Met him the later roads of the the slams more often I think as well.
     
  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Newcombe did give Laver his toughest battle in a Wimbledon final. Set were tied at one and Newcombe led 4-1 in the third before Laver went in overdrive and won. Good point.
     
  5. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Once Rosewall didn´t raise to the ocassion at RG, Newcombe remained the only player Laver was really worried about on the next two grass court tournaments that followed.

    The Wimbledon final score was the closest of the 4 finals Laver won.
     
  6. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Indeed, Laver's match win- loss percentages went up in open era, even after his peak. If you would set in 1970, where he was 90-15 and 1971, where he was 83-18, his percentage win-loss average would go a bit up for 5 years. In 1970, he won 15 tournaments/29 played, in 1971 7/26, his first year since 1963 under 10 tournaments win a year. On the old pro tour, and even at the dawn of the open era 1968, and partly in 1969, you had to compete in a very high percentage of matches against top ten players. McCauley writes, that Laver in 1968 was 22-1 against amateurs (including Ashe, Okker, Graebner etc.). I think, his hardest foe in hth in 1968 was his old fellow Emerson.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  7. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Exactly :lol:

    Who would have challenged him from the pro's in 1969 in your opinion?
     
  8. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    it is obvious that fellow pros were older than former amateurs like Ashe or Newcombe who were hitting their peak by 1969 and 1970.

    so, that makes sense
     
  9. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    I went back and added invitational titles to Borg's and Connors's counts, and this is what I got:

    Borg - 75 titles total b/w 1976-80 (48 sanctioned, 27 invitational)
    Connors - 59 titles total b/w 1974-78 (55 sanctioned, 4 invitational)

    I didn't add match records in invitationals to win-loss #s, because I don't have those - clearly Borg won at least 27 final round invitational matches from 1976-80, but I don't have his round robin record, final round losses, etc.
     
  10. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    At that point on grass perhaps Newcombe would have been tougher than anyone from the old Pros. Only Rosewall may be as tough.

    Gonzalez would be an outside shot of but he was not on the level of Newcombe. Good point.
     
    Last edited: Aug 17, 2014
  11. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is interesting data
    I support that the top ten invitational tournaments ( not one night stands) shall be included if we want to be fair to the importance of tournaments in those days.Because they were that important for players, fans, press and organizations.
     
  12. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, In 1967 Emerson was not a pro. Ralston and Buchholz were strong pros. Gonzalez played several tough tournaments in early 1967.
     
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    My point still stands

    The level of 69 " new pros" more than made up for the decline of the former pros from 1967 to 1969.

    Rosewall would win majors at even older age...
     
  14. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, You know that Roche and Newcombe were pros since 1968.

    The old pros were still very strong in 1969, i.e. Laver, Rosewall, Gimeno, Gonzalez, Ralston, Buchholz and Stolle.
     
  15. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Fraser was almost 5 years older than Laver.

    Even with his peak form he would not have been a threat to Laver in 1969 or to Roche or Newcombe or Rosewall or Ashe or Okker or Gonzalez.
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2014
  16. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Well, he beat Laver at two major finals, which the others, except Rosewall, never dreamt of...( Roche had nightmares when he had to play the Rocket, worse than when he was preparing an exam at school on the last minute)
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    NatF, I don't understand. All old pros were active in 1969 and could not touch Laver.
     
  18. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Those not-ATP sanctioned invitationals in the 70s and early 80s are one of the biggest problems for evaluation in Tennis history. We had some threads about it. Several were really important tournaments, which were simply not sanctioned by the ATP for rivaling reasons, like the Frankfurt Event in 1979 or later the Antwerp Golden Racket (or even much later the Grand Slam Cup).
    I was live at one 4 men event in Essen in late 1978, where Borg, Laver, Panatta and Gerulaitis played. This was imo an exhibition, Laver had lost his equipment on the flight and borrowed rackets and Fila shirts from Borg. The younger players went to the disco after days play. A week later however, i saw a 8 men event in Germany on TV, where Borg beat i think Fibak in the final. Looked very much like a real tournament. I agree with Kiki: We should include them, if they were not one night stands, and examine them further.
     
  19. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes

    To me those were ( not in any specific order):

    .EEC Golden &Diamonds Racket, Antwerp
    .Gran Slam Cup: Boca Raton first and Munchen later on ( in different formats, I know but basically a contest between GS winners)
    .WCT Challenge (Cerromar,Kingston,Montreal...)
    .Milan Brooklyn Masters
    .Chicago Challenge of Champions
    .Moolson Challenge at Toronto/Montreal
    .WCT Tournament of champions , first at Las Vegas, Nevada and later on at Forest Hills, New York
    .Europe vs Americas at Madrid and next Barcelona
    .Frankfurt Challenge
    .AKAI series at different Australian venues such as Sidney,Perth and Melbourne

    Those events were massive and players didn´t take them as a mere exo.Problem is that not all of them were played all the time but they certainly consolidated a tradition and a continuity for years.They clearly stand from the rest of non sanctioned events.

    The one day stands do not count
     
  20. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    Very clarifying - thanks. Here's a list of invitationals I included in Borg's titles from '76-'80 (pretty much pulled from wikipedia). I'm definitely curious to get folks' takes on which side of the real tournament v. exo they fall under:

    8+ player draws

    October 19-21, 1978: Hamburg - Rothenbaum Tennis Club (Carpet)
    Borg d. Wojtek Fibak 6–1, 6–1 in the final.

    September 28-30, 1979: Marbella - European Championships of Tennis (Clay)
    Borg d. Adriano Panatta 6–2, 6–2, 7–5 in the final.

    November 26-29, 1979: Milan – Masters Brooklyn Chewing Gum (Carpet)
    Borg d. John McEnroe, 1–6, 6–1, 6–4 in the final.

    November 29 - December 2, 1979: Frankfurt - Cup Invitational Tennis Round Robin (Carpet)
    Borg d. Jimmy Connors 6–3, 4–6, 6–3, 6–4 in the final.

    Less than 8 player draws

    September 14-16, 1976: Guadalajara, Jalisco Tennis Invitational Round Robin (Clay)
    Borg d. Ilie Năstase 6–3, 6–3 in the final.

    September 17-19, 1976: Mexico Marlboro Tennis Round Robin (Clay)
    Borg d. Ilie Năstase 7–6, 0–6, 6–1 in the final.

    October 11-15, 1976: Hilton Head World Invitational Tennis Classic (Clay)
    Borg d. Arthur Ashe 6–1, 6–2 in the final.

    November 3-5, 1976: Chicago Olsonite Tennis Classic (Carpet)
    Borg d. John Newcombe by unknown score in the final.

    November 6-7, 1976: Detroit Michigan Pro Tennis 4-men invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. Rod Laver 6–3, 6–1 in the final.

    November 24-28, 1976: Copenhagen Pondus Cup Invitational Round Robin (Carpet)
    Borg d. Wojtek Fibak 7–5, 3–6, 7–6, 7–5 in the final.

    February 12-13, 1977: Cincinnati Riverfront Coliseum Invitational Round Robin - 3-men (Carpet)
    Borg d. Rod Laver 6–7, 6–3, 6–2 in the final.

    September 27-30, 1977: Hilton Head World Invitational Tennis Classic (Clay)
    Borg d. Roscoe Tanner 6–4, 7–5 in the final.

    March 7-9, 1978: Gothenburg Scandinavian Cup (Carpet)
    Borg d. Vitas Gerulaitis 6–4, 1–6, 6–3 in the final.

    April 18-20, 1978: Copenhagen Pondus Cup Invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. Vitas Gerulaitis 2–6, 6–4, 6–4 in the final.

    April 21-23, 1978: Tokyo Suntory Cup (Carpet)
    Borg d. Jimmy Connors 6–1, 6–2 in the final.

    August 14-15, 1978: Menton French Riviera Invitational (Clay)
    Borg d. Guillermo Vilas 6–4, 6–3 in the final.

    August 16-17, 1978: Fréjus Arena Trophy (Clay)
    Borg d. Guillermo Vilas 7–6, 7–5 in the final.

    October 16-18, 1978: Essen Gruga Hall International (Carpet)
    Borg d. Vitas Gerulaitis 6–3, 7–6 in the final.

    October 28-29, 1978: Manila Smash-78 Tennis (Clay)
    Borg d. Vitas Gerulaitis 6–2, 7–6 in the final.

    November 23-24, 1978: Antwerp European Tennis Championships (Carpet)
    Borg d. Tom Okker 6–4, 6–3 in the final.

    March 6-7, 1979: Vienna Velo Cup Tennis – 4-men invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. John McEnroe 3–6, 6–1, 6–4 in the final.

    September 26-27, 1979: Essen Gruga Hall International – 4-men invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. Ilie Năstase 6–1, 6–4 in the final.

    October 2-7, 1979: Netherlands - 5 city (Final at Rotterdam) Roxy Tennis Round Robin – 5-men (Carpet)
    Borg d. Eddie Dibbs 6–3, 6–0 in the final.

    November 24-25, 1979: Brussels Belgian Cup – 4-men invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. Adriano Panatta 6–1, 7–6 in the final.

    December 14-16, 1979: Cairo Egypt's First International Round Robin (Clay)
    Borg d. Ismail El Shafei 6–2, 6–3 in the final.

    March 8-9, 1980: Stuttgart Cup-80 – 4-men invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. Adriano Panatta 6–2, 5–7, 6–1 in the final.

    October 25-26, 1980: Berlin West Berlin Cup – 4-men invitational (Carpet)
    Borg d. Vitas Gerulaitis 7–6, 6–3 in the final.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  21. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Good list Eldanger but Rothenbaum in Hamburg was the site of the German Open, so it should have been clay courts.
     
  22. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Thanks for the list. The 8 men events are unquestionable imo, really important events, at least equivalent to all other ATP events. For the 4 men events i cannot make a definite statement, maybe other posters know better. Some 4 men events like the Pepsi Grand Slam were really important (also the BBC 2 event at Wembley in early open era). Only a selective look: Hilton Head was very lucrative and important event in those days. Antwerp had built up some tradition. So better include and examine further.
    One note of correction: The surface at Gruga Hall at Essen was carpet, not clay. I know, because i was there.
     
  23. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    Yes and no, Kiki. Rothenbaum is the side of the German Champs on clay, but in this case, it was played indoors in October 1978. It was the 8 men Event i watched on TV.
     
  24. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    Fair enough - for what it's worth, I think the Pepsi Grand Slam has since been deemed a sanctioned event, and is included in ATP records.

    EDIT: I made the Essen surface swap, thanks.
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2014
  25. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    And here's Connors from 1974-78; sources appear to be Barrett and Sutter (and wikipedia):

    8+ Player Draw

    June 5-10, 1978: Beckenham – Kentish Times Tennis Week (Grass)
    Connors d. Stan Smith 9–8, 6–3 in the final.

    November 23-26, 1978: Kobe & Tokyo – Gunze Invitational (Carpet)
    Connors d. Ilie Năstase 6–2, 6–4 in the final.

    December 5-8, 1978: Lucerne Lucerne Invitational (Carpet)
    Connors d. Tom Okker 6–1, 6–1 in the final.

    Fewer Than 8 Player Draw

    September 22-24, 1978: Buenos Aires – 4-men invitational (Clay)
    Connors d. Björn Borg 5–7, 6–3, 6–3 in the final.

    Looks like Connors won most of his 40 or so invitational tourneys in the 80s.
     
  26. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    urban, BBC2 was played from 1966 to 1969 (winners Gonzalez, Rosewall, Laver, Laver)
     
  27. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    Sampras, 1993-97

    Overall w/p: 84.1 percent (354-67)

    Clay w/p: 69.0 percent (40-18 )
    Grass w/p: 91.3 percent (42-4)
    Hard w/p: 89.2 percent (198-24)
    Carpet w/p: 77.9 percent (74-21)

    Average calendar year record, overall: 71-13
    Average calendar year, clay: 8-4
    Average calendar year, grass: 8-1
    Average calendar year, hard: 40-5
    Average calendar year, carpet: 15-4

    Titles: 39 (1 clay, 19 outdoor hard, 6 indoor hard, 8 carpet, 5 grass)
    Finals: 47 (1 on clay, 22 on outdoor hard, 6 indoor hard, 12 carpet, 6 grass)

    GS titles: 9 (0 RG, 4 Wimbledon, 2 AO, 3 US Open)
    GS finals: 10 (0 RG, 4 Wimbledon, 3 AO, 3 US Open)
    Title round record, GS events: 9-1 (0-0 RG, 4-0 Wimbledon, 2-1 AO, 3-0 US Open)

    MS 1000 titles: 8 (1 clay, 5 outdoor hard, 2 carpet)
    MS 1000 finals: 11 (1 clay, 7 outdoor hard, 3 carpet)

    Best YEC results: Winner, 3x (1994, 1996, 1997)

    YE #1: 5 (1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997)
    Weeks at #1: 198
    Record vs. Top 10: 63-26 (70.8 percent)
     
  28. Carsomyr

    Carsomyr Hall of Fame

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    Bizarre stat of the week: Sampras played exactly one top ten player in 1997 from the AO to Cincinnati (a win over Muster in the AO semis), and yet it still ended up being his best year against the top ten, with a 12-1 record against them.
     
  29. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    Good stuff - pretty wild that he was #1 for about four whole years of those five.

    I'll try to add 1-2 more of these soon - maybe Mac and Lendl.
     
  30. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Jack Kramer combined peak ( amateur and pro) is one of the best.
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Not to mention his Winner Takes all challenges against Laver,Newcombe and Orantes al Las Vegas.

    Well the real winner take all event, match by match, was the WCT Challenge...
     
  32. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It's very possible for level of play he is up there with any player in history.

    I think and pardon me if I'm off that in his last two amateur years he lost a total of three matches. He turned pro and beat Bobby Riggs 69 matches to 20. I think at one point it was 16 to 15 in favor of Kramer so Kramer won 54 and lost 5 the rest of the way. To be fair Kramer thinks Riggs, after he fell way behind, tanked and tried to set Kramer up by beating Kramer at the US Pro but Kramer beat Riggs in four sets in the final.
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Wasn´t that 46-47? I think he turned pro in 48, so he never played Pancho as amateurs.
     
  34. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, Yes, they never met as amateurs.

    I believe that Gonzalez was stronger than Kramer. He dominated Kramer after 1950.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Yes; after 1951 or 1952, Kramer was basically done as a top pro and Gonzales,Sedgman and Segura won almost eveything.
     
  36. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    kiki, But Kramer won ther 1953 tour and retired officially as "undefeated" (or was it Jake's own claim?)...
     
  37. eldanger25

    eldanger25 Professional

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    John McEnroe, 1980-1984

    Overall w/p: 88.1 percent (376-51)

    Clay w/p: 76.6 percent (49-15)
    Grass w/p: 93.3 percent (70-5)
    Hard w/p: 88.2 percent (97-13)
    Carpet w/p: 89.9 percent (160-18 )

    Average calendar year record, overall: 75-10
    Average calendar year, clay: 10-3
    Average calendar year, grass: 14-1
    Average calendar year, hard: 19-3
    Average calendar year, carpet: 32-4

    Sanctioned Titles: 44 (3 clay, 6 outdoor hard, 5 indoor hard, 7 grass, 23 carpet)
    Sanctioned Finals: 60 (6 on clay, 7 on outdoor hard, 5 indoor hard, 11 grass, 31 carpet)
    Invitational Titles: 11 (1 hard, 1 grass, 9 carpet)
    Invitational Finals: at least 11 (same as above)
    Total Titles, Combined: 55 (3 clay, 7 outdoor hard, 5 indoor hard, 8 grass, 32 carpet)

    GS titles: 6 (3 Wimbledon, 3 US Open)
    GS finals: 9 (5 Wimbledon, 1 RG, 3 US Open)
    GS Entered: 15 (5 Wimbledon, 4 RG, 5 US Open, 1 Australian Open)
    Title round record, GS events: 6-3 (3-2 Wimbledon, 0-1 RG, 3-0 US Open)

    Best YEC Result: Wx2, 1983-84
    YECs Entered: 5 (1980-84)

    Best Dallas WCT Result: Wx3, 1981, 1983-84
    Dallas WCTs Entered: 5 (1980-84)

    ATP MS 1000 titles, equivalent: 12 (2 clay, 2 outdoor hard, 1 indoor hard, 7 carpet)
    ATP MS 1000 finals, equivalent: 16 (2 clay, 3 outdoor hard, 2 indoor hard, 9 carpet)

    WCT Titles: 8
    WCT Finals: 11

    ATP YE #1: 4 (1981-84)
    Weeks at #1: 135 (58 consecutive)
    Player of the Year, Generally Accepted: 3 (1981, 1983-84)


    Record vs. Top 10: 48-20 (70.6 percent)
    Record vs. Top 5: 35-13 (72.9 percent)

    Against Lendl, era rival

    12-9 overall, sanctioned events (2-2 on clay, 1-0 on grass, 2-3 on outdoor hard, 7-4 on carpet)

    7-7 overall, invitationals (per Gizo's list from 8/25/2013)

    3-3 at the majors (1-0 Wimbledon, 0-2 RG, 2-1 US Open)

    1-1, GS title fights (0-1 RG, 1-0 US Open)

    2-2 at the YEC

    1-1 at Dallas WCT

    0-1 at Davis Cup

    3-1 at MS 1000 equivalents (1-0 clay, 0-1 outdoor hard, 2-0 carpet)

    9-4 in sanctioned finals overall (2-1 clay, 1-0 outdoor hard, 6-3 carpet).

    Miscellaneous

    Age: 20-25
    Wimbledon/US Open double x2 (1981, 1984)
    Wimbledon/US Open/Davis Cup title triple, 1981
    5x Wimbledon finals reached (1980-84) (3 titles)
    2x Davis Cup titles (1981-82)
    Notable Events Missed: 1980-82, 1984 Australian Open; 1982 French Open

    Overall Results at GS events: 82-9 (w/p: 90.1%; average season: 16-2)
    Record in GS quarterfinals: 11-2 (5-0 Wimbledon, 1-2 RG, 4-0 US Open, 1-0 Australian Open)
    Record in GS semifinals: 9-2 (5-0 Wimbledon, 1-0 RG; 3-1 US Open, 0-1 Australian Open)
    Record in GS finals: 6-3 (3-2 Wimbledon, 0-1 RG, 3-0 US Open)

    Percentage of majors won: 40 percent (6/15)
    Percentage of total tournaments won: 50 percent (44/88 )
     
    Last edited: Aug 13, 2014
  38. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Thanks for this. IIRC at least a couple of non masters titles were larger than your standard current 500 series. Some had points totals not too far off a masters. I'd also argue the Grand Slam Cup should be included as an indoor major as well - 1997.
     
  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    General estimated information on Bill Tilden.

    First some general information from Bud Collins' Encyclopedia
    From 1912 to 1930 he won 138 of 192 tournaments entered, lost 28 finals and had a 907-62 record for a winning percentage of 93.6!

    Five Year Peak Period
    Winning percentage-98%
    Majors won-Nine
    Majors entered-Nine
    Percentage of Majors won-100%
    Percentage of Tournaments won-82.1%
    Tournaments won-69

    Majors total included the World Hardcourt that Tilden won on clay.
     
  40. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Pretty ridiculous numbers. No one will have the pure numbers of Tilden over a 5 year period.
     
  41. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It's tough to say the the least. His records will be almost impossible to break.

    Some other information on Tilden--Longest recorded winning streak in Men's Tennis history-98 in 1924 through 1925.

    Tilden may hold the record for most matches played also. Currently info has Connors at number one with 1622. I think Rosewall is way ahead of Connors with about 2230 plus. Gonzalez could be up there or number one for most matches played considering he played at least over 700 matches in head to head tours alone. This doesn't include the old one night stands and all the matches played in tournaments.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2014
  42. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    No one ever dominated such a weak field.
     
  43. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    This may be true. I agree the field was weak. Still to dominate it to that extent is near GOAT worthy IMO. Plus his talent was unquestionable as he challenged great players into the 40's.
     
  44. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Not really.

    The records were against him.

    He was at his best in the twenties.
     
  45. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    He made Pro Major finals as late as 1938. I consider that challenging.
     
  46. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Where was that?
     
  47. NatF

    NatF G.O.A.T.

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    Tilden made the finals of Wembley and the French in 1938. Not sure of the status of those events back then?
     
  48. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I looked up Kramer's results in Amateur period 1946-1947. According to Sutter he won:
    1946: 6 titles, Forest Hills, LA, San Francisco, Beverly Hills, Seabright, South California,
    1947: 8 titles, Wim, FH, LA, LA South Pacifik, Miami, San Francisco Pacific Coast, River Oaks, New York indoor.
    According to Sutter (and McCauley) he won only 4 important pro titles (outside the WS and some other Austraiian and British tours)):
    1948: 1 Forest Hills US pro, plus Ws and 2-3 other tour wins, 69-20 in WS, plus 16-2.
    1949: 2 Wembley, Scarborough, 15-2 Overall.
    1950: 96-27 in WS, plus 3-1
    1951: 1 Philadelphia R.R., WS 64-22, plus 20-20 (with 3-14 vs. Kovacs, if this is corrrect).
    McCauley's stats of Kramer's win-loss numbers i had given in the Old pro thread. It seems, if there is no iceberg beneath, that Kramer played a quite selective schedule in the pros, outside his WS activities. He seldom played more than 20-25 matches per year. There is an odd number in McCauleys book, that Kramer was 3-14 in hth to Kovacs. Joe cites a magazine report there, but no concrete results are given.
     
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
  49. Dan L

    Dan L Professional

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    Not sure of his opponents.
     
  50. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    Nüsslein in both cases (Wembley 1938 is doubtful though).
     

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