penetrating slice tips

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by 2ndServe, Feb 4, 2013.

  1. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    are there any good videos of advanced high level slice technique?
     
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  2. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Sorry, I don't know about vids.
    A penetrating slice needs to clear the net by about 2', bounce somewhere in NML, then skid off to one side while changing the ball path's direction and speed after bouncing. It can nuetralize most topspin to topspin rallies, IF the slicer can hit passing shots off both sides.
    Most top players use a very conti grip, some towards Forehand side, some towards Backhand side of conti. Body needs to be solid, feet closed, aggressively hitting the ball with lots of underspin, and enough pace to be 2' above the net while landing somewhere in NML, the deeper the better usually, except against strong groundstrokers.
    Few players use a strong grip for slice. You CAN hit a strong slice shot with an eastern backhand or even SW backhand grip, but it's bounce doesn't seem as different as a topspin stroke, and the opponent doesn't need to vary his prep to return it. Possibly it's because it's hard to slice as hard using a strong grip, which often adds pace to the ball, but not more underspin...which causes the low, off to the side skidding bounce.
    Ball speed here is not important because it's the spin that causes the opponent problems. Even against a netperson, ready to volley, and aggressive slice that is low can be a very difficult volley.
     
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  3. Topspin Shot

    Topspin Shot Legend

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    For a penetrating slice, your stroke has to be basically flat. You get the backspin because the ball comes off the court with topspin, which once it hits your racket, is converted into backspin. The effect of the spin off the court is so powerful that the spinniest shot ever measured was a backhand slice (over 5,000 RPMs). Too many players try to chop their slices and as a result pop the ball into the air.
     
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  4. rkelley

    rkelley Hall of Fame

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  5. _craze

    _craze New User

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    A more closed stance is always nice, for starters.

    Just about any video with Steffi Graf in it is golden.
     
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  6. 2ndServe

    2ndServe Professional

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    slow mo edberg slice? interested in his shot and the movement through it.
     
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  7. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Slicing a high ball

    Excellent. Would also note that the ball Fed is hitting is quite high, and that he manages to get his racket hand "higher" than the contact height of the ball before starting "down". To me, that is key in preventing that shot from "floating" too high and without pace.

    More of a "curiosity" thing to me is that they all have the racket face significantly more "open" in the backswing than at contact. I also see that with good volleys, and feel that I hit both those shots better if I consciously make that move - as long as that "closing" of the racket face stops after contact.
     
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  8. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    some Shot Maker inputs for slices

    Played around a bit with the "racket face angle" and "swing path angle" with TW University's "Shot Maker" stroke analysis gadget. Put some of them up on my Flickr site. http://www.flickr.com/photos/mentalblock/sets/72157632779578857/with/8480434310/ Any scuba divers out there - especially those who aware of the wonders of the Blue Heron Bridge - might get a kick out exploring said Flickr site. I *also* over-do underwater photography. :mrgreen:
     
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  9. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

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    a pure underspin slice is more difficult to deal with IMO. sidespin has its place but for slice it's at cost of underspin. so practice some pure underspin slice that doesn't sit up. and pace is not that important in a good slice.
     
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  10. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    On a slice, the angle of sidespin is directly related to the height of the ball at the strikezone.
    As a lefty, on low balls, my slices skid severely to the right at the bounce.
    On medium high balls, waist to chest, it's almost all backspin with some sidespin to the right.
    On higher balls, those over my shoulders, the ball curves and bounces to my LEFT, like a rightie slice serve.
    Reverse the curve directions for righties, but the medium high ball is mostly backspin with a little bit of side.
     
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  11. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    actually...

    the definition of 'penetration' is speed... you can't have a floaty slice that penetrates, even if it spins at 10000 rpm...because after the bounce all that 10000 rpm underspin becomes 50rpm topspin.

    and to produce speed is simple, you need the hitting unit of arm/racket moving FORWARD at impact.
     
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  12. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    The old "spiral spin" thing, again

    The curve of the ball in the air is related to sidespin. The direction it "kicks" after the bounce is related to spiral spin. SA calls it rotation around the "Z" axis. (I reckon the other two are "X" and "Y", but I ain't sure how to orient them to know one from the other, but I suspect that the "Y" axis is the one around which sidespin occurs. :)) The height of the ball helps determine whether yer stroke causes clockwise or counterclockwise spiral spin. Just trying to help.:mrgreen:

    BTW, I've found *exactly* the same results that you've described - and utilize them regularly on droppers - especially drop *volleys*. I keep meaning to get around to doing a video for youtube. . .
     
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  13. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Penetration

    Maybe the better term is "aggravation". And, it may even require much more racket head speed than the 65mph of the inputs in order to generate same. My most aggravating slices actually still have backspin on them after the first bounce, and that bounce is extraordinarily low.
     
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  14. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    actually - how much top/underspin is there after the bounce is not important, as the rpm will be minimal either way.

    i should have said that penetration is a combination of spin and speed before the bounce.... the right combination causes aerodynamic lift (as opposed to a topspin ball), so it makes the ball 'light' with little friction at the bounce, hence the 'skidding'.

    aerodynamic lift cannot be achieved with the lack of either the speed or the spin.
     
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  15. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I tend to hit the most penetrating slices when I'm really leaning forward into the ball.
     
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  16. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Skidding

    Maybe, then, it is the "skidding" that is seen as (at least a large portion of) the "penetration". The playing surface, I think, is also a major factor in the degree of "skid". I've played on some glass-like indoor hard courts that made "skidders" all but impossible to deal with by someone who wasn't used to playing on same.

    Makes sense that the "Magnus effect" would be speed related.
     
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  17. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    - step into the ball, closed stance (i.e. sideways)
    - use high takeback, hit across the body to impart both side and backspin
    - hit only slightly in front of the body (less in front than in a normal backhand)
    - swing non-dominant arm towards the back parallel to the baseline to keep balance
     
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  18. Mahboob Khan

    Mahboob Khan Hall of Fame

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    There are many slice models at www.tennisplayer.net.

    As you drive your topspin backhands also drive your slice BH just that the face of the racket is bit open at contact.
     
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  19. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    HIT Thru your slice like Ken Rosewall does. It will be Penetrating like Nadal forehand. Just do NOT CHOP like Federer.
     
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  20. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    Maylene go back to the kitchen
     
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  21. brucie

    brucie Professional

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    I think Feds got a class slice, if you look at the position on backswing its the same as all pros high and at 90 degrees to target...
     
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  22. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I thought this thread is about PENETRATING backhands, not any old reliable sliced backhand possibly used to tease or change of pace.
    OTOH, what is "penetrating"?
    My hard slice backhand is "penetrating" against 3.5 weak players. Against 4.5's, it's an easy sitter.
    The 4.5's backhand "penetrates" against me, but is an easy sitter for a 5.5.
    The 5.5's "penetrating" slice backhand kills the 4.5, but it's a sitter for 7.0's.
     
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  23. mntlblok

    mntlblok Professional

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    Actually, looks like it didn't even say "backhand". :) I've developed a penetrating *forehand* slice (by necessity). The bigger the backswing I take, the more penetrating the shot. I can apportion the added racket head speed in various degrees to either spin or pace.

    The larger backswing also seems to aid in confusing the opponent as to whether I'm going to drive it or drop it. Still need to get around to doing that video. The stroke is quite ugly.
     
    #23
  24. chunlimeyers

    chunlimeyers Rookie

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    i think the OP is looking/asking for technique.. Watch Steffi Graf. She drops very blatantly her right shoulder. If your right shoulder is level or up, go ahead, try it, the ball will sail and you will chop the ball. If u drop your shoulder, and then lean forward into a fairly level swing, magic occurs. Good luck.
     
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  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Shoulder drop is tied in with the grip you use on the backhand slice.
    Most top players slice with a continental grip slightly twisted towards eFOREhand. Yes, eForehand, not eBackhand. This requires the low shoulder on the hitting hand, leaning forwards.
    Some players using strong SW backhand grips for slices can lean back and still slice low and hard. It's not favored currently, because they tend to hit topspin backhands.
    Either way, full shouder turn, closed stance, solid posture, hit the ball where the opponent doesn't like it.
     
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  26. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    True. The slice needs to be "hit" not a chopped. The racquet comes from high to low, but in a forward movement, hitting the ball. Thats how you get a penetrating slice. If the slice is very low but short and not very fast it will be easier to return.
     
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  27. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    No, not true at all.
    A super fast, barely spinning underspin ball that is hit short does not "penetrate", except at low levels of play.
    A slow moving, but deep and well placed slice DOES penetrate, at any level.
     
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  28. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    do you guys use side spin on your slice? i tend to get quite ab it of that as i finish across my body on the follow through.
     
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  29. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

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    What's that red string?

    :confused::confused:
     
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  30. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Wouldn't the sidespin on a slice depend on the contact point height?
    On shoetop balls, it's an inside out slice.
    On head high or higher balls, it's an outside in.
    And somewhere between, it depends on how you slice.
     
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  31. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    That video with Fed/Youzhny is a great model, imo.

    I think the most important thing after that is practice. To get a penetrating slice you need good timing in order to get that low ball path since it'll have to only pass a little over the net.

    I think the easiest way to get a penetrating slice is to take a higher bouncing ball on the rise and cut it downwards into the court.
     
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  32. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    here is another thing that is not often talked about.

    react to the target, not the ball.

    people reacting to the ball tends to chop... but if you have a target in mind, say an exact spot 3 ft inside both lines, then you slice, your CNS will realize that a chop wont get you there.
     
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  33. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I find, given time to prep, that a slice strokes gives much more control over the height of the ball over the net, while a topspin shot is much harder to control it's height over the net.
     
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  34. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    Federer slice stinks. do not copy it. it doesn't work
     
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  35. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Right. With that poor excuse for a slice backhand, he is barely a 4.5 level player ....at best.
     
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  36. marosmith

    marosmith Professional

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    Can you get that black string to hold its tension???

    :confused::confused:
     
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  37. TomT

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    There probably are lots. Rosewall, Federer, Wawrinka, Youzny, and Haas come to mind. I think you might find lots more of what you're asking about by checking out vids of players from the '70s and '80s.

    Anyway, below is a video of one way that I hit it. Yes, I know, contrary to your request, these are low level and not very advanced at all, but it works for me, and I didn't feel like searching for relevant pro vids. :)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4p4Q3Dxc2uk

    What some posters said about not hitting it too choppy, hitting it almost flat, slightly undercut, with forward body movement if possible is good advice I think. Hitting it deeper and faster (penetration) is just a matter of the forward momentum you impart to the ball. A deep, hard hit, slightly undercut ball that skids real low can be tough for anybody to handle. But slices that hit in no mans land near the sidelines can be very effective also. (as I suppose you know, which is why you started the thread)
     
    #37
  38. luishcorreia

    luishcorreia Professional

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    How can you do a deep slice, slow moving or not, without hitting the ball forward?
     
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  39. Povl Carstensen

    Povl Carstensen Legend

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    Interesting, I never thought about that. It seems that it makes you hit more through the ball, than with the "scooping" under the ball movement that I intuitively have been using. Looking forward to trying it.
     
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  40. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

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    Can anybody else post a video of them-self hitting a penetrating or heavy-spin slice?

    TomT, thanks for showing what you got.
     
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  41. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Poster 38... WHO said to not hit with a forward swing? Did I? Did you?
    Poster 40, read post 22 again.
    You cannot see a penetratings slice from a video. On court, it's another story.
     
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  42. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

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    Post 22 is a djoke

    Summary of post #22

    I think "a" is good but to somebody better it would not be considered good so it's not really good but it's the best I can do so it's good.

    Since when did mediocre become the standard?
     
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  43. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    What's a joke is your lack of understanding of how things work.
    YOUR forehand might defeat me breadsticks, but it won't faze a 5.5, and Federer will pound it into a clean winner.
    YOUR backhand might cause me to miss over and over again, but a good 5.5 will pummel you by going to your backhand every time.
    YOUR serve might knock me silly on my butt, but a good 5.5 will just chip it into a corner you can barely reach, as you stumble and fall on your face.
    What you call "POWER" might be just a rally ball for someone better than you.
     
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  44. Pickle9

    Pickle9 Semi-Pro

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    Dude, you replied to op who was asking for a video of high level slice technique. Is your 200+ word reply not an attempt to describe how to hit a "high level" slice? You won't post a video demonstration because one cannot see whether a slice is penetrating or not on video? I call bravo sierra.

    Come on man, either a ball is penetrating or it isn't. Either it kicks or it doesn't.
     
    #44
  45. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    Rosewall's 140mph slice would penetrate my bosoms.
     
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  46. sabala

    sabala Semi-Pro

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    How about an old school Brian Gottfried slice? This vid actually talks about "modern" vs "classic" slice bh but I start it at the (sort of) instruction part...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IKYI3CEOsk#t=03m15s

    And don't ask why the narrator chose Roddick for modern example!

    The clips in that slice bh vid originally come from this "sneak attack" video...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEAS6pK0ms

    -which come from here btw...

    http://iws.punahou.edu/user/lcouillard/


    When I start losing a bit of ooomph on my slice, it's usually cuz I start hitting it too far out in front, (get a bit eager) and get not so good weight transfer into the shot.

    Amazing - can't find any isolated Edberg slice bh vids either!
     
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  47. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    #47
  48. TomT

    TomT Hall of Fame

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    Some vids for you 2ndServe. I remember Rafter as having a real nice slice backhand also.

    Tomic vs Dolgopolov
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZXjB1u-W9EM

    Llodra vs Dolgopolov
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AqOwyy3WZUo

    Dolgopolov
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dBEUevZLsY

    Tomic
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otluQFZLXds

    Tomic vs Querrey
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHIYYeyfJPM

    Rosewall backhand stuff starts at 1:37
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WR7kvBGntW8

    Rosewall slo-mo backhand
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rws3...9dESuTDbepFX0SGWtdrhJ23&feature=results_video
     
    #48
  49. BevelDevil

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    No talk of grip?

    I think it's interesting that some guys seem to hit with almost an Eastern forehand grip.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    Any thoughts on using grips weaker than continental for the bh slice? I switched to a weaker grip because I liked it for volleys (on both sides), but my bh slice floats a bit more as a consequence.
     
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  50. luvforty

    luvforty Banned

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    whatever floats the boat is cool :)

    from eF to eB, lots of grips can work.

    key is how much 'push' is applied at impact.
     
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