Penn State Sanctions

Discussion in 'Odds & Ends' started by Fearsome Forehand, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    At first blush, I thought PSU got off a little light. However, when one considers the implications of the NCAA's penalties, it would seem their football program will be all but ruined for about a decade. Maybe that is still sort of light given the horrendous nature of enabling a child molester to continue to molest children for years after PSU first learned of his crimes.

    I post on football-related site sometimes and quite a few people maintained that this is not a matter into which the NCAA should intervene. I always took the position that they had to intervene or risk being a laughing stock.

    My guess was a 5 year bowl ban and a significant loss of scholarships. The fine leaked out yesterday so that was a known. They actually got a 4 year bowl ban and will lose 10 scholarships/year for 4 years. All of their players are allowed to transfer out immediately without sitting out a year. I imagine many of the underclassmen may bolt. I think what may hurt them most is almost no elite player will even consider them for several years.

    A year ago this situation would have been unimaginable. Paterno was a college football god, Sandusky was a respected top ex-DC would ran a successful charity and PSU had one of the premiere football programs in college football. A year later, Paterno has been fired in disgrace and is dead, Sandusky is a convicted child molester facing life in prison and PSU's reputation is about as tarnished as is possible.

    I feel sorry for their fans and the players but not the university itself.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
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  2. smoledman

    smoledman Legend

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    Should just shutter the entire university.
     
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  3. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    The only people who have actually been found to be involved with the incident are either in jail or no longer with us. They seem to have punished the wrong people. I'm all for the 60 million dollar fine which is going to charities, but it just seems ridiculous to me that the kids that for whatever reason chose to go and play for the university are receiving so much punishment.

    Then again, I don't think we'll ever know the full extent as to how many people actually were involved in this....
     
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  4. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    I think the penalty is 20 scholarships per year? Add to the above vacating all wins since '98. It's probably as close to the death penalty you can get without being the full death penalty. It's been 25 years since SMU's NCAA hammering and they still haven't recovered. Penn St certainly has more tradition and $$ but I would guess 15-20 years before they compete for a national title again. They honestly haven't contended in over a decade, so maybe longer?
     
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  5. jmverdugo

    jmverdugo Hall of Fame

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    the thing is ... they decided Not to care about the foundation kids, that is what sucks big time, it feels like they did not care about them because they type of kid they were.
     
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  6. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    The NCAA had to do something. Penn State leadership at the time accoring to the report knew about these allegations and did for all inetents and purposes did nothign about it, the save the school and the football program. Had they not wiped this under the rug for 10 years would they have been able to recruit some of thier guys? Fot that reason you have to strip the wins and penalize them.
     
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  7. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    You could make that argument about any punished program. USC, in particular, where one bad apple (Reggie Bush) took the whole team down. The problems are almost always confined to a few players who broke the rules, or an assistant coach who violated recruiting rules, and/or a crazy booster.

    This particular scandal involved the university president, a VP and the head football coach covering up child molestation to preserve PSU's reputation. That is a very severe action and requires a severe punishment.

    If anything, the full cooperation of the new president lessened the punishment somewhat. If he had stonewalled, I think PSU football would have received about a 5 year death penalty.

    This is the sort of thing that happens when the tail wags the dog. Paterno had absolute power at PSU so perhaps this outcome was predictable.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
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  8. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    Understandable, but if it truly is all about the victims like the pro-death penalty supporters seem to always go back to, why not fine the school multiple years and give that to charity.

    I do agree with vacating all the wins, championships, bowl wins, etc., though it does seem a bit childish in my mind (not implementing it, but just the idea of vacating wins in general).
     
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  9. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    I just don't like the fact that under this system (through which both USC and PSU got punished) the majority of those who feel the brunt of it are seemingly innocent. Though, of course, I understand they're part of the bigger 'program', which is what is meant to be punished.
     
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  10. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    I think the NCAA was very cognizant of the potential for collateral damage. That is the primary reason, IMHO, that PSU did not lose its football program entirely for about 5 years.

    That said, I do feel for the fans and the players.
     
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  11. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    The 5 and 4 star(which is most of the scholarships) recruits will not get penalized. They can transfer with out penalty and the NCAA may even add that scholarship to the school. Those guys should be fine. Especially the underclassmen. The main issues will be with the upperclassmen who dont want to transfer or dont have the ability to transfere becuase they aint good enough. They will get hit a little without the scholarships. But if PSU has any sense they will kick in an ademic scholarship to make up the difference. Theer are probably quite a few who will simply not play this year becuase the scrutiny of the road games while they sit on the bench wont be worth it.


    A while ago liek 2004 they were close to letting Paterno go. they had had 4 bad years out of 5 and felt Paterno was mentally losing it. Then they had an 11 win year and that planted him as a fixture for however long he wanted.
     
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  12. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    I just feel for the kids who maybe always wanted to play for the university, grew up as fans, their families went there, or whatever, and have worked so hard for a scholarship only for the actions of others to affect them so heavily. At least they're going to let them transfer without any complications.
     
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  13. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Paterno gets posthumous punishment. Since the team vacates all wins between 1998 and 2011, JoPa drops from 1st to 12th on the all time coaches win list.
     
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  14. BigServer1

    BigServer1 Legend

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    This...All of this.

    Penn State won't recover this decade, likely not in the 20s either.

    Added to the punishment is the reason they were punished. If I'm an 18 YO high school super star, I don't want anything to do with this team, ever. "Oh I played college football at Penn State" will forever be met with "oh it was so awful what happened there". I think that will take even longer to get over, and it will haunt the program forever.
     
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  15. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    i wonder if this will have a carryover effect and hurt their wrestling recruiting (for example).

    fyi, penn state is back-to-back wrestling champs
     
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  16. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    ^ Perhaps, but to a much lesser degree than the damage to the football program. The NCAA stipulated that the fine be paid for by football proceeds exclusively. $60M represents about one year's gross revenue for PSU football. PSU can't pay the fine by robbing the other sports.

    PSU's reputation will be badly tarnished for quite a while over this. This was easily the worst scandal in NCAA history.
     
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  17. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    I wish he had lived long enough to see the outcome of the coverup. Very sad end to the stellar career he had at PSU.
     
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  18. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    Absolutely. Recruiting was already passing PSU by and now this. Unless you are a native of Pennsylvania (and even then), what about PSU a few years down the road could possibly intice you as a blue chip recruit? Which big time coach, a requirement to recruit these days, chooses to go there? You have to think the program is scarred at least a couple of generations.
     
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  19. Kevin T

    Kevin T Professional

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    If you believe some of the stats about big time college programs funding the non-revenue sports, I don't see how it couldn't have an impact. Then you also have the stigma of playing for PSU or 'perv state university', something I've already heard teens saying.
     
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  20. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    PSU is a state school. The taxpayers in PA will pay the fine, ultimately.
     
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  21. BigServer1

    BigServer1 Legend

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    I think finding a high profile coach will be next to impossible for the next 15+ years. Their best bet is to do what Oregon did, get smart and find some obscure genius from nowhere (Chip Kelley - New Hampshire), and just bet the farm on them.

    Not sure there's going to be another way to do it.
     
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  22. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    I think as long as Cael Sanderson is there the wrestling program is safe.

    But some of other sports as other posters have stated will surely take some kind of hit.

    hopefully its just less out of state travel or something and not folding of programs.
     
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  23. jaggy

    jaggy G.O.A.T.

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    There is a researcher called Gerald Gurney who stated a while back that the biggest problem with college sports is "Celebrity coaches and the athletic director puppets that oversee them" Seems borne out here.
     
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  24. West Coast Ace

    West Coast Ace G.O.A.T.

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    Calling JoePa a 'celebrity' is a huge understatement. He was a Deity. Only the governor of the state was more powerful - and that is debatable since he had to run for re-election from time to time.

    Feel bad for the existing players - a little late - unless you're parents are rich - to transfer this yr - scholarships are out and even if another school dumped their bottom kid for you, learning the new system (at least on offense) would be tough.

    Cautionary tale - but everyone in a position of power thinks they won't get caught - so I'm sure there will be more scandals - though this will probably never be topped.
     
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  25. Eph

    Eph Professional

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    Oh well. Hopefully they don't have this blind loyalty and they can understand why PSU is a disgrace and why they would not want to play for a disgraceful team.
     
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  26. Eph

    Eph Professional

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    Can someone confirm this: I saw on the news of some NCAA team getting the "death penalty" due to gambling? Is this true?
     
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  27. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    CCNY Basketball in 1951?
     
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  28. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    A statement like this makes me want to vomit. The players can transfer immediately without any loss of eligibility. They lose NOTHING. In fact, they GAIN immensely as a result of their ability to immediately disassociate themselves from a school which overlooked pedophilia.

     
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  29. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Football fans, players, coaches, and sports announcers are the most selfish, simple minded, deluded sports fans on the planet. They feel "deprived" because a statue of a criminal is taken down.

    Meanwhile these same sick freaks don't give two flying sh-ts about all of the children who were RAPED by Sandusky. Sandusky raped HIS OWN ADOPTED SON.

    Unbelievable.
     
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  30. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    Seriously, give it a rest.

    "Oh boo hoo hoo! We don't get to root for pedo state in a bowl game this year!"
     
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  31. CCNM

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    Still not sure what to say. But there are definitely no winners in this. :(
     
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  32. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    I think they will have to go to division 3 football for next 10 years then make a comeback in D1. and just start from scratch.
     
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  33. Nostradamus

    Nostradamus G.O.A.T.

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    For all you folks, this may sound strange. This is really simple case of right and wrong. There was a culture of silence and look the other way at Penn state. and we all know we see this even to this day. At our own jobs or else where more prominent perhaps.

    Lesson is if you see a Wrong, speak up, and do the right thing.
     
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  34. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    If it really is all about the victims as all journalists and debaters on ESPN/CNN/etc. seem to point out, it would be interesting to understand their views on the sanctions. Some of the victims were obviously fans, attending games much after the whole incidents occurred.
     
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  35. Steady Eddy

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    I believe this is true, and how pathetic is that? His contribution to the world is winning games. Not winning wars or curing cancer, but winning games. And when he wins games fans get a vicarious thrill out of what someone else accomplished. So much so that no one wanted to protect kids if it would hurt the football team's image. Some priorities!
     
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  36. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    The victims probably had to hide the fact that those things went down for years and years. Now that those things are out, they probably look at PSU football differently, especially after seeing the reaction of some of the fans. I don't think many of the victims will care that PSU isn't going to be a powerhouse anymore. They've honestly got bigger things to worry about after the mental toll that abuse has likely had on them.

    I have no sympathy for PSU players or fans. The fans still have a team. The players can transfer without penalty.

    We can make that argument about a lot of things in life. Why do people love Michael Jackson so much (just a coincidence that his name was the first I thought of). All he did was sing songs. The only people that should be idolized are doctors and teachers. Get your priorities straight, 99% of the world!
     
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  37. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    You don't have the slightest clue how twisted you sound.
     
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  38. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    ^ Seriously, give it a rest. :)

    The fun is just starting for PSU. Wait until the civil suits hit. $60M is only the beginning and rightly so. Sandusky's victims will have their day in civil court.

    The State of Pennsylvania has deep pockets and the University is totally culpable for what happened to many of Sandusky's victims because they knew/suspected and they did nothing to stop it. How did they think they would ever get away with this?
     
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  39. Fifth Set

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    This is really the key problem and a big part of why, sadly, I believe terrible things will continue in our schools. There are inadequate checks and balances, too much control in the hands of money making sports authorities and too much corporate influence.

    Meanwhile, ordinary students go into tremendous debt while earning degrees that aren't even that marketable anymore.

    College has gone sideways while we were just innocently (or so it seemed) cheering the touchdowns.
     
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  40. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    Yes, there is something seriously wrong when a university president and board have to kiss the ring of the head football coach. Bass ackwards.

    But, big time college football brings in a lot of money via conferences, television, gate, parking/concessions and merchandising. It is the sacred cash cow in many places.

    When Tom Harmon played at Michigan, the season was about 8 games plus the Rose Bowl if a team won the Big 10. Now most teams play a 12 game schedule plus a playoff game and a bowl game. The student/athletes are more athletes than students.

    Maybe, it is time to rethink the way things are.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2012
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  41. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    It's what people want. Consumer demand drives higher education. Guys want hot coeds; hot coeds want jocks; the schools want jocks to fill stadiums; jocks want to go to a school with hot coeds; fat middle aged couch potatoes want a break from their nagging wives so they tune them out for a weekend of football with big jocks and upskirt cheerleader shots. Advertisers want the dollars of fat couch potatoes. The universities want to be in conferences with huge bowl payouts.

    The circle is complete. If a bunch of kids get raped, even if it's in a campus shower stall, no big deal, as long as the money keeps flowing.
     
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  42. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    That's part of why I disagree when the NCAA says this ruling will change the culture of putting football ahead of kids. You really think this will stop teams paying players under the table? A team in Boise, Idaho playing in the BIG EAST conference for some reason? Hmm...I wonder why. The same thing that drives everything, money. It's too late to turn the train around, with the playoff coming things are only going to be even more about money and give these coaches/football programs even more power.
     
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  43. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    The NCAA is just as big of a problem. It basically pimps off college athletes to schools and advertisers. The problem is most severe in college football, where power-mad, sadistic coaches rule like tyrants over entire towns.

    I've never witnessed it myself, but I've heard multiple reports of the endless verbal abuse these athletes endure from coaches. We see a glimmer of it from time to time (Knight caught on film with a hand on a college player's throat).

    And then there are the injuries. I had a serious injury when I was in college, and was shocked to see a line of football players, all with equally serious or even more severe injuries than myself in the university hospital. Concussions, broken bones, early onset arthritis, serious stuff.

    College athletics is a meat market, plain and simple.
     
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  44. adventure

    adventure Banned

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    The corruption of college athletics is endemic and the dictatorial rule of the NCAA itself is disgusting. Having said that, there are two options once you discover wrong doing:

    A. Do nothing and continue to "enjoy" sports entertainment, or

    B. Do something to try to rectify the situation, even if the solution is imperfect and/or itself subject to criticism.

    Your nihilistic stance, i.e., "nothing will ever change" is first of all, factually incorrect. Second, it is morally objectionable (if I wanted to be harsh I could use the term bankrupt). It is a defeatist mentality.

    Let's look at the situation and take the hypothetical one step further. Let's say the 4 team "playoff" does give some ncaa programs more power (I don't really see how this changes the financial landscape significantly, as only 1 additional bowl game will be played, but whatever).

    If this is true, corruption increases. Teams are more likely to cheat. But as more teams cheat, and/or cheat to a greater extent, this increases the probability that they will get caught (statistical probability). This will lead to more investigations and hence more sanctions.

    The tide could very well turn in the opposite direction then--more restrictions, more rules, fewer violations.

    All in all, I'm simply questioning your basic assumption, ie that no improvements are possible and that further corruption is inevitable. NOTHING is inevitable. We all have a choice. Always.

     
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  45. jamesblakefan#1

    jamesblakefan#1 G.O.A.T.

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    I meant nothing will ever change as far as these schools always going after the money first. Even my school (ODU) is moving to FBS to try and go for more money, even though we're going to lose our natural rivalries in football and basketball and likely get crushed in football for a few years because of it. You obviously took my words out of context - these schools are always going to go for the big dollars, as long as they're out there to be had.
     
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  46. Avles

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    It brings in donations too:
    http://www.insidehighered.com/news/...among-other-areas-correlated-football-success

    The NCAA is corrupt, the universities are corrupt, but a lot of blame goes to the fans as well. If the fans stopped coming to the games and snapping up merchandise, if alums stopped basing their donations on football success, things would change in a big hurry.

    But I think college sports is too much of a religion for that to happen.
     
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  47. albino smurf

    albino smurf Professional

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    They covered up child **** for over a decade. They should have shut down the football program permanently.
     
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  48. norbac

    norbac Legend

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    #48
  49. hollywood9826

    hollywood9826 Semi-Pro

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    The NCAA penalized Penn State for covering up criminal activity for over 10 years. They are not intersted in the victims opinions.

    If another teams assistant committed multiple felony's over and School and team spent over 10 years hiding it, then a similar punishment was likely.

    I dont like that Lawyer. This is how I read that whole atricle. My Client loved Penn State football and they should have penalized them. But we want to penalize the School by making them pay us money. But now that the football program is banned they wont make as much money to pay us.

    If he feels the School is liable enough to warrant a civil suit for damages, then how in the eff is the fottball program not?
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2012
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  50. volleygirl

    volleygirl Semi-Pro

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    The penalty is not 20 scholarships per year, they are losing 10 a year for 4 years. Instead of having 25 per year, they will only have 15. This is not anywhere near the death penalty either so stop with that comparison. They may not get th 4 and 5 star athletes they usually get but there will be plenty of 2 and 3 star guys who will go there and there are enough patsies on their schedule to give them at least 3-4 wins every year. No they wont challenge for a title but the program would be shut down totally if they got what they deserved, so having football and 4-5 wins a year is better than none if all you care about is PSU football.
     
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