People here underestimating others serve speeds

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Nickzor, Apr 1, 2014.

  1. Nickzor

    Nickzor Semi-Pro

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    Okay so i realized lately a lot of people have been putting up links to videos of there serves and some were quite fast, heavy looking, but a majority of people would be all like ''90 mph at best'' orr ''looks about 70 mph, 80 at best'' then they'd be some people uploading there own serve videos saying their serves are faster yet they themselves would be the only ones that actually thought their own serves were faster and then everyone else would say NO WAY THAT WAS said speed etc.

    I mean just watch this video of Adam Sandler and Kevin James playing tennis, at 19:07 mins Adam Sandler hits a serve in at 93 mph, it didn't look fast at all i mean if that was 93 mph I'm sure i can serve over 100 mph for sure, a lot of the serves people uploaded looked much faster, but funnily enough when people uploaded videos of there own serves which to me and anyone who can see properly definitely look faster then that 93 mph serve that Sandler hit, people on this board would say nahh about 80-90 mph at most lol

    And don't tell me the radar gun was juiced in that video, the fastest serve i saw in the whole vid was 120 mph by Jim Courier (called just out, but probably in, Courier is a former World # 1, 4 time slam winner and still in good shape and not thatt old) so its completely in the realm of reality that Jim Courier can serve 120 mph when he really wants to and he definitely went big and for broke on that particular serve, if they were juiced I'm sure Courier could have bombed at least in the high 120's yet the fastest was 1 modest 120 mph

    just compare that serve in the video at 19:07 minutes to a bunch of uploads put up here by people and thennn try and tell them their serves are only around the 80 mph mark at best

    Here's one vid some guy uploaded last week, it's clearly faster then Adam Sandlers serve yet i can recall a lot of people saying it was 90 mph at the absolute most.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBzfXBALMik&feature=youtu.be

    there's plenty more but it'll take a bit of searching to find them, but seriously though?
     
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  2. gmatheis

    gmatheis Hall of Fame

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    This is why I keep trying to explain the difference between how the pros measure the speed of a serve and one of us using a radar gun.

    Sandler had 2 serves around the time you said 91, and 93 ... neither of those would have registered 90+ on radar that people here use.
     
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  3. tennis_ocd

    tennis_ocd Hall of Fame

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    Evens out; I think most ttw posters underestimate their humor; they get more laughs than Sandler and James.

    If a former world no. 1 and 4x slam winner can hit 120+ we can all no doubt do it. He's only 43, just coming into his ttw prime years. Can probably take a set from Date-Krumm.
     
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  4. WildVolley

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    It is usually a mixture of incompetence, anger, and attempted humor.

    A long time ago a former multiple slam winner was rated a 4.5 based on a short hitting video. A lot of people think that rating was serious, so then it became a running joke to underrate videos of players.

    The same combination of incompetence and attempts at humor might explain the recent estimating of fairly hard serves at 20mph or slower than reality.

    Lastly, some posters seem to actually be angry that some players can hit serves over 100mph, so they automatically assume that it is an impossible standard and adjust downward.

    The solution is to just get a hold of a radar gun and measure your own serves, or to play USTA to get a ranking.
     
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  5. TCF

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    Count me as one of them. But mine is not based on jealousy or anger or anything else. Its based on being in SE FL and attending many academy practices, Orange Bowls, having D-1 guys training with our juniors and on and on. It is based on having an engineer in our coaching group who researched how to set up the radar gun to get an accurate measurement. It comes from him measuring many, many players serves the past few years.

    It comes from a top D-1 guy hitting what appeared to me to be a 120 mph serve and him looking me in the eye and saying "my serve tops out at 105 mph". It comes from last week having a guy serve and 11 people swearing it was "over 100 mph" and the calibrated gun measuring his highest in serve at 81 mph. It comes from talking to coaches at the Orange Bowl 18s and them telling me that 6'5" kid's serve I am watching is about 95 mph, not 110 like it looked to me. And it comes from those scenarios having happened many times over the past few years.

    Most guys get all panty bunched about serve speeds. So whatever, if they really want to believe that the radar at some fastest serve booth means they really serve 129 mph, go for it. If they really believe blasting one out of 20 balls in that measured 115 mph on a Sports Authority off the shelf radar means thats their real serve speed, go for it.

    In the end, who cares? Some overestimate, some underestimate....none of us are making money playing tennis for a living so who really cares?
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2014
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  6. WildVolley

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    The interesting thing is that people who have experience with cheap consumer radar and professional setups tend to find that the professional setups read faster perhaps because they correct for the cosine error.

    So I definitely side with those who measured 115 mph on the cheap radar.:)

    I've seen most of today's big servers in person from close to the court: Roddick, Raonic, Karlovic, Isner, Groth, Tsonga, Gulbis, Querrey, etc. Compared to their hard flat serves, 100mph rec serves aren't very impressive.

    My suggestion is still to find someone with a radar gun and measure your own serve.
     
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  7. tennis_ocd

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    exactly. No silly frame counts or amusement park cage magic. I'm in awe of anyone who can *legitimately* break 100. It's awesome to see. Just doesn't happen 1/100th of the time one would believe reading here.

    My advice; if any rec player really believes they hit 110, don't get gunned. Same goes if you feel as though you hit Fed-like FHs, move like Rafa, volley like JMac... don't video. Keep the lights very low and live the dream.
     
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  8. tennis_ocd

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    There is no cosine error if shooting reasonably in line with the ball. One could even argue that a handheld gun pointing in direction of ball would be more accurate than a stationary, big event like set-up. But anything <10 deg is insignificant.
     
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  9. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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  10. tennis_ocd

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    I've seen Roddick and Isner from courtside. (Isner anyway; roddick was nose bleed seats.) These guys are only averaging perhaps 120? Not all that different (pure speed wise) from a 100 rec. The occasional 130 does get gasps. As would a 100 rec serve.
     
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  11. WildVolley

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    5263 has experience measuring with consumer handhelds and having players hit on an ATP setup. So he's my source on saying that he believes the ATP setups are more accurate and in his experience read faster.

    I haven't done any cosine corrections recently myself.
     
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  12. tennis_ocd

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  13. tennis_ocd

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    Admittedly, the ATP setups likely get the speed right off the racket when it's at the highest. My handheld only when triggering; don't know how better units work. I'm conceding mine doesn't get the peak.
     
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  14. WildVolley

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    I was just at IW this year and sat in the middle of the backstop filming Groth during a match. His flat serves were often measuring high 130s or low 140s. That was significantly faster looking than one of his 120s spin serves. I'm still suspicious about his 163mph serve, but there's no question he can hit in the 140s when he wants.

    In person, the most impressive servers were Karlovic and Isner due to the serve angle. Even a 120mph Isner serve seems to go straight down into the court and straight up off the bounce.

    In my opinion, most of the 115mph serves by the men look considerably faster than the 100mph range serves by the women.
     
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  15. tennis_ocd

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    That's what struck me about Isner at the US open. Rec players with fast serves tend to stay low. These guys would hit 120 and still get it up to shoulder height. And the kick had to be played on the rise or they'd be untouchable. Never faced anything remotely like that.
     
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  16. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    Thanks haha
     
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  17. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Er... you guys FORGET....
    The pro is serving on an abrasive court.
    YOU are mostly likely serving on an old painted cement court.
    When I serve first flats on slow carpet, the bounce goes up around the shoulder's of a 6' tall opponent. Same serve on old painted cement courts, it barely hit's stomach high at the baseline.
    I mentioned, on brand new painted cement courts at GoldenGatePark, some of my first serves bounced into or higher than the 5' tall fencing behind the courts.
    Less than a year later, no chance.
     
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  18. GuyClinch

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    This is why I keep trying to explain the difference between how the pros measure the speed of a serve and one of us using a radar gun.

    That was my point. Listen haters gonna hate. Use the same system the pros use and lots of people can hit decent numbers. The women pros hitting 100mph are not hitting big. I sat right next to them. Plenty of rec men can hit that level. I was considering getting Drakulie's radar but read it scores 15-20mph lower then Juggs gun consistently. Pros use a considerably more accurate system that records the ball right off the strings.
     
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  19. Topspin Shot

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    Still a big difference between what I can do throwing my entire body into a flat serve to light up a radar gun and what I can do in a match where I need a good first serve percentage, have to be ready to hit the next ball, and am dealing with fatigue.
     
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  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    I find almost no difference between practice fast serves and match first flat serves.
    Both hit around 24" high on the backwall on slick painted cement courts.
    Effort needed for both is exactly the same. I can hit around 20 fast ones accurately each day, few more if ever any.
    Why save them?
    Practice would allow a few more fast ones.
    Fast first serves seem to have a pure winning percentage around 50. Of the rest, maybe 35% get returned with a weak high block. Of course, the opponent can hit a lucky winner one in 50, and mishit a lucky winner 2 in 20.
    To me, it takes less effort to hit my fastest flat serve than it does for me to run out to the sidelines to retrieve a ball YOU hit.
     
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  21. tennis_ocd

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    Funny vid. But why the hate on Sandler? He is a rec player that can hit 90. Not the greatest technique but the 93 to JC was hit hard. Most were well under 80; many too slow to be picked up by radar.

    Also of interest was JMac's first serve of match. You get to see Kevin James (admittedly weak rec player) see a real 100+ serve. I don't think the racket moved until the ball was well past him.
     
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  22. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    I hate Sandler because his movies are terrible and he isn't funny. Oh, but that's not really on topic.

    The OP has a legitimate point. Sandler isn't a very good player and he's seen thumping in a ball at 93 with the wrong grip. Yet players post videos which appear to be significantly faster and a lot of people say "that serve isn't over 85 mph." Someone is seriously mistaken.
     
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  23. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    The same radar guns that are used for tennis are used for baseball pitching and are considered relatively accurate. Are you saying that kids that are pitching at 80 are really pitching 56?

    I know much of your logic comes from comparing juniors, but the serve is one area where this just might not make too much sense. Serving requires the least amount of practice and ability out of any tennis shot and is a function of strength/height and even weight. Most of the juniors I have seen recently are not extremely muscular as it isn't a benefit for tennis. I played quite a few good juniors last year and served substantially harder than all of them. Unfortunately that pace didn't help me too much as I lost the majority of those matches.
     
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  24. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Baseballs keep their momentum much longer than tennis balls..
     
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  25. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    Ok, but wouldn't this bias a tennis serve measurement even lower?
     
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  26. WildVolley

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    Yes it would.

    In my opinion most of the consumer radars are good enough. I figure that mine is probably in a five mph error range and mostly on the downside.

    I've measured bad players (I mean high school players who would probably only compete at 3.0) and some of them can bang in serves over 90mph (though not very consistently). Since I can easily hit over 100mph on a good day (flat serve with good contact), I tend to believe people if they say they can hit 100 mph.
     
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  27. Maximagq

    Maximagq Banned

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    Serve speed is overrated. I literally played a match today and just hit kick serves the entire match and was able win by outgrinding my opponent. My first serve percentage was probably 90% and placed to the backhand most of the time. From there, I could gain control of the rally.
     
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  28. tennis_ocd

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    hmmm. imo, serving is the most difficult and requires the *most* practice of any tennis shot. Any reasonably athletic person can have a pretty good looking FH in hour; a serve may take years. And technique is 10x more important than strength/height/weight.

    Agree with max^. Of all the characteristics of a good serve; location, consistency, movement, spin, good under pressure, post-serve prep, and speed.... speed may be the least important.
     
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  29. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    Sometimes this is the best strategy.
     
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  30. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Can't stress enough that video, especially wide-angle video from behind the server, effectively hides the real speed of the serve when watching in real time. Video slows everything down, it is not the same as standing the same distance behind the person as the camera.
     
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  31. Sir Shankalot

    Sir Shankalot Rookie

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    Maxi

    It would be easier to estimate your serve using the frame count method if you were to set up your camera at the other end of the court, i.e. on the receiver's side, just like in the [in]famous LeeD video. That way it is easier to see the bounce and also estimate the distance travelled.

    That said, using the serve speed calculator (here is the link) I made your serve #3 at 0:21 to be about 85mph. The first serve in the video was out so doesn't count :twisted: but it is about the same.

    [​IMG]

    Have a great day :)
     
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  32. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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    I spend far more time working on my strokes than my serve. It's been a long time but as I recall the serving portion of my lessons was about 5 minutes out of an hour.

    It does take a while to develop proper form, but most people who learn how to play as a junior do get to this point after which it becomes a function of height/strength.
     
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  33. MyTennisTools

    MyTennisTools New User

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    How calc serve speed

    How did you get that speed? Did you know the frames per second of the video? That's the only way I know, but I'm teachable!
     
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  34. MyTennisTools

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    Oops

    Oops, should have read the rest of the thread. My bad. :mad:
     
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  35. RoddickAce

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    Pretty much this. I think there is this mystique around a 100mph for players that don't face fast serves often.

    Once you break 100mph yourself and face players that serve faster than you, it becomes nothing special.
     
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  36. tennis_ocd

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    It child's play.

    http://blog.tennisspeed.com/2007/04/informal-serve-speed-survey-of-us.html

    NCAA men clocked were 1, 2, 4 and 6 singles for UCLA. Five stars and blue chippers. There is certainly a mystique surrounding a 100 mph serve for those not playing the highest levels of D1 tennis.

    ATP Men—first serve: 101 to 122 MPH; second serve: 78 to 90 MPH
    NCAA Men—first serve: 82 to 104 MPH; second serve: 69 to 85 MPH
    NCAA Women—first serve: 64 to 89 MPH; second serve: 64 to 74 MPH
    U18 Girls—first serve: 67 to 96 MPH; second serve: 63 to 75 MPH
    U16 Boys—first serve: 75 to 105 MPH; second serve: 67 to 82 MPH
    U16 Girls—first serve: 65 to 83 MPH; second serve: 58 to 70 MPH
    U14 Boys—first serve: 63 to 87 MPH; second serve: 55 to 69 MPH
    U14 Girls—first serve: 57 to 73 MPH; second serve: 53 to 64 MPH
     
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  37. user92626

    user92626 Legend

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    Why so negative and venomous toward your own kind, the rec player group?

    In this case the truth is what we make of it. Whatever estimation we rec players go by, we're dealing with it ourselves. I think it works itself out in the end. So there's really no over or underestimation.

    It's not like there's a completely different future, level awaiting each of us that will reveal the truth. :)
     
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  38. TCF

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    Yup, trained around top D-1 guys and top junior boys for a long time, most times they do not break 100 mph and if so not by much.

    But on TW....100 mph is child's play...110 mph?....115 mph?....even they flow as free as the breeze. Heck one guy says he cracked one 129 mph like butter!!
     
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  39. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

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    Those are second serve speeds.
    I already claimed, most of my second serves go in from 60 mph for twists up to 75 for my fastest second serve top/slices.
    First flats top 100, of course.
     
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  40. psv255

    psv255 Professional

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    Yeah can't believe most guys that say 100+ is easy unless they're current or former top D1/pro circuit players, or lower-level serve specialists. But a flat 100 mph serve that a rec makes 1/4 tries, not at all "easy," is IMHO believable.

    As said before, there's spin on most competitive players' serves that makes it difficult to deal with and is more practical in match situations. Most rec players who even care much about serve speed don't see the need for spin at their lower level of play, or simply have a flatter, riskier first serve.
     
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  41. asimple

    asimple Semi-Pro

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  42. GoudX

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    I've been courtside on the small courts at Wimbledon watching Raonic (twice), Isner and Del Potro (and a few other blasters outside the top 100). All of them (except Krumm) hit HUGE serves which made a thumping noise and flew through the court like nothing I'd ever seen or heard. These were all above 130mph. I've never seen a recreational player get anywhere near that.

    On the other hand, contrary to what a lot of people here say, most young healthy players with basic technique can hit in the 90s.

    I know quite a lot of powerful players around 4.0 who can hit around 100mph.

    A few players I know around 4.5 level (myself included) can crank a serve creeping in the 110s if they don't care about consistency, and are able to hit consistent serves with decent spin over 90mph.

    I'd bet that the most powerful recreational serves I've seen are around 115-120mph, which ANY ATP-100 player can beat.



    I've also seen Date Krumm play from the courtside, and she serves slower than an awful lot of powerful recreational players at 80mph, but from memory that is because she has absolutely no lower body movement or shoulder rotation - but has a better serve than you'd expect as she has incredibly well placed low-skidding spin serves which would ace or cough up an UE from most 3.5 players pretty much every time.
     
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  43. WildVolley

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    Venom isn't the correct word. But my concern is aimed not at rec-players, but at TTW posters who are going out of their way to grossly underestimate serve speed on videos showing serves clearly in the 100mph range.

    You just need to look back a few threads to see serves that are clearly over 90 mph being classified as below 80 mph. Why are some TTW poster doing that?

    My argument is that this gross underestimating, the topic the OP used to start this thread, is the result of incompetence, anger, or joking.

    Huh? I have no idea what this means.:confused:

    There is a way to measure your serve speed. It is called a radar gun. I tend to agree that most rec-players overestimate their own serve speed, because that's my experience from using my radar gun.

    On the other hand, I don't understand those who refuse to believe that some rec players hit over 100 mph flat serves often. I can serve over 100 mph without much difficulty and I've measured high school players serve over 100 mph with semi-western grips. These were not good players.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
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  44. RoddickAce

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    #44
  45. WildVolley

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    That's a really terrible camera angle. If you had a tripod, or even set the camera up on a chair, it would be much easier to judge the movement.

    In any case, it seemed to me those were pretty hard serves and I'd guess it was possible that the second and one near the end could have been over 100 mph. There didn't seem to be anything hit under 90mph.

    Two offsetting things on your video are that indoor serving seems faster than outdoor often because of the acoustics, and that video tends to make things look slower than in person.
     
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  46. psv255

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    #46
  47. RoddickAce

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    Okay I think those are relatively accurate estimates.

    These were my serves from Rogers Cup 2011:

    This one I got measured at 169kph(105mph):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqSi1zgBfy8

    These 3 I got measured at 165kph, 164kph and 163kph (101mph):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zmy3mj2plT4&feature=youtu.be

    I think I missed 2 of those 4 serves, but anyway,

    The serve from the back angle I showed earlier is from 2013, I would hope that they are faster than what I was serving from back in 2011 (just look at my terrible weight transfer in the 2nd link, my left foot doesn't even pass the baseline)

    I know at least 2 players at my level that can serve faster than me. 3 others that are close behind.

    Above my level, I know 4 that can serve much faster but they choose to hit spin serves instead, because they trust their groundstrokes to do the job.

    None of these players I mentioned are close to D1.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2014
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  48. spinovic

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    I watched Isner in Cincinnati last year. He was serving pretty consistently in the 125-130 range. In big moments, he cranks it up about 10 mph pretty consistently. It is amazing how much harder that extra 10 mph looks in person. It seems about twice as fast. That was about the norm it seemed to me for most of the players. Not the actual speed, but the difference between a "normal" serve and a "big" serve. The difference with Isner and guys like that is that they serve about 10-15 mph harder on average and the aforementioned angle and bounce of their serves. Isner played about as well as I've ever seen from him in that Cincy tournament.
     
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  49. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

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    You're the type of rec-player I say can hit over 100 mph if he flattens it out and gets good contact.

    How does it feel to be a mythological creature like the Yeti to some TTW poasters?:twisted:
     
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  50. RoddickAce

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