Petition to amend 2014 USTA Jr rules

andfor

Legend
This was directed to no one other than tennis5
This is ironic given your experience in this area. #potkettleblack.

You then responed to it as if I was talking to you. Are you Chalk or Tennis5? I was not talking to you. That's clear to everyone here. All anyone has to do is read the exchanges above. You chose to answer if I was talking to you. Oh well...........either an honest mistake, which you have not owned up to. Or a mistake toggling between alias's.
Ahhhh and a good morning to another one of my beloved fans! I have WAY too much ego to hide behind multiple screen names.

But if helps your story, feel free to continue to discredit me. It really makes you out to be the bad guy.

Have a great day!!

You wish you could have made the JV.
My good man, Sherlock Holmes you definitely are not. Like I said, my ego is too large to hide behind an alias. Your feeble attempt to discredit me is junior varsity at best. If the forum truly believes your accusation to be true, have them speak up and I'll quietly leave. Nevermind.
 

chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
It was an honest mistake by ME and not Tennis5, he was not involved. In reading, I confused his response with one of mine...that's all. My apologies Tennis5 for the mixup. It matters little as the damage is done. The forum lost a solid contributor tonight. And yes, Chalk Flew Up!

All the best to the TWF gang!

Your thread is officially back on topic.
 

tennis5

Professional
OK Chalk, or are you logged on as Tennis5? Wait, check your screen name, now reply. You two are big fakes.

Andfor,

How can I say this nicely?

Well, sometimes, it is just better to say it.

You are an idiot.

You first accused me of being DB's dad when I came on,

then I was three other people,

and now I am Chalk........

Good God, get a life and a brain.

( But, I do appreciate the rule posting on the heat).
 
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It was an honest mistake by ME and not Tennis5, he was not involved. In reading, I confused his response with one of mine...that's all. My apologies Tennis5 for the mixup. It matters little as the damage is done. The forum lost a solid contributor tonight. And yes, Chalk Flew Up!

All the best to the TWF gang!

Your thread is officially back on topic.

It shoud be obvious to anyone who has read more half a dozen posts here that you are not Tennis5. If you are, you have a serius case of mpd AND too much time on you hands.

AndFor is pretty much a troll you shouldn't let him get too you
 
T

TCF

Guest
It was an honest mistake by ME and not Tennis5, he was not involved. In reading, I confused his response with one of mine...that's all. My apologies Tennis5 for the mixup. It matters little as the damage is done. The forum lost a solid contributor tonight. And yes, Chalk Flew Up!

All the best to the TWF gang!

Your thread is officially back on topic.

Chalk....I just came back, you can't leave now! andfor has gone through various phases of being a solid poster to just rattling cages. Forget about it, I think we all do it at times.

I am certain you only have the one screen name. Stick around, you add a lot to the discussion.
 

andfor

Legend
Andfor,

How can I say this nicely?

Well, sometimes, it is just better to say it.

You are an idiot.

You first accused me of being DB's dad when I came on,

then I was three other people,

and now I am Chalk........

Good God, get a life and a brain.

( But, I do appreciate the rule posting on the heat).

Nice name calling. You get the 10 year old award today. It's ok for you to accuse others of having multiple screen names. I get it. What's OK for you is not for others.
 

chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
Chalk....I just came back, you can't leave now! andfor has gone through various phases of being a solid poster to just rattling cages. Forget about it, I think we all do it at times.

I am certain you only have the one screen name. Stick around, you add a lot to the discussion.

Thx for the words TCF. End of subject. My preference is for the thread to get back on topic
 
Appreciate you sharing all of your insight on this matter.

I have read all the signatures and recognized some parents, they have juniors that are not elite playing nationals who are dodging elite local players who can not afford to travel, that is the bottom line.

THE USTA TOOK THE MONEY FACTOR AWAY FROM ALL OF THIS, PERIOD.
 

chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
I have read all the signatures and recognized some parents, they have juniors that are not elite playing nationals who are dodging elite local players who can not afford to travel, that is the bottom line.

THE USTA TOOK THE MONEY FACTOR AWAY FROM ALL OF THIS, PERIOD.

And that is a beautiful thing. It shouldn't be about the cabbage.
 
Andfor,

How can I say this nicely?

Well, sometimes, it is just better to say it.

You are an idiot.

You first accused me of being DB's dad when I came on,

then I was three other people,

and now I am Chalk........

Good God, get a life and a brain.

( But, I do appreciate the rule posting on the heat).

I think your Mr.Baughman , you flow the same mindless way he does , he calls people names , sound familiar ? If you are Mr. B we will catch you trust me .You don't need to hide cause were coming after you and we will find you .
 
I have read all the signatures and recognized some parents, they have juniors that are not elite playing nationals who are dodging elite local players who can not afford to travel, that is the bottom line.

THE USTA TOOK THE MONEY FACTOR AWAY FROM ALL OF THIS, PERIOD.

THE USTA TOOK THE KIDS AWAY FROM ALL OF THIS, PERIOD. LOOK I CAN SHOUT TOO, PERIOD.
 
I have read all the signatures and recognized some parents, they have juniors that are not elite playing nationals who are dodging elite local players who can not afford to travel, that is the bottom line.

THE USTA TOOK THE MONEY FACTOR AWAY FROM ALL OF THIS, PERIOD.

yeah - Nancy van Overbeek, Cindy Britton, Gordon Bellis...no elite players in that group! and that's on the 1st few pages ( i don't have the time that PT360 has to troll through the whole list)
 

tennis5

Professional
The petition is to object to the 2014 USTA changes
which affect only National Junior tournaments
for the ages of 12-18, the biggest changes are the Super Nats
( effectively getting rid of Winter and Easter,
and reducing the draw from a 192 juniors to 128 juniors
for Clays).

So, this would not affect all of the USTA membership.
 
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So, this would not affect all of the USTA membership.

When a Troll posts it is better not to bother to respond. Using logic in a discussion with a Troll does not work. They are not trying to contribute to the conversation. It is obvious that with 2 genders and 4 age groups with probably 250 affected national players in the 8 groups we are talking about 2000 parties. Everyone knows this. Even Trolls know this.
 

chalkflewup

Hall of Fame
When a Troll posts it is better not to bother to respond. Using logic in a discussion with a Troll does not work. They are not trying to contribute to the conversation. It is obvious that with 2 genders and 4 age groups with probably 250 affected national players in the 8 groups we are talking about 2000 parties. Everyone knows this. Even Trolls know this.

It is certainly an emotional subject with valid points on both sides, however; just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a troll.

Can you help me out as I am not following your math. Wouldn't this only affect those players on the bubble? If so, this would reduce the 2,000 number down to about 200. I'm not being argumentative, I'm just trying to put things into perspective.
 
When the "future of Jr tennis" is affected I think all the USTA membership should be involved, our whole community. It shows how no one ( less that .1%) cares nor voted on this silly petition because the future of Jr Tennis is not affected. It is not the demise of Jr tennis in this country! Only the demise of the few whining tennis moms and dads that wants Jr ranked nationally at all costs, literally:oops:
 
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It is certainly an emotional subject with valid points on both sides, however; just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a troll.

Plenty of people have disagreed with me, you included, and this does not make them trolls. Pro_Tour is not trying to make valid points or have a conversation.

As tball put it in his last comment
Now that's just silly but gave me a good laugh.

Can you help me out as I am not following your math. Wouldn't this only affect those players on the bubble? If so, this would reduce the 2,000 number down to about 200. I'm not being argumentative, I'm just trying to put things into perspective.

It affects many more players then the ones “on the bubble”. Even if you are top 20 in your age group and can benefit from the compass draws and small tournaments chances are you will not be top 20 when you age up. There will be many kids who will play nationally in their “older” year and locally in their “younger” year in each age division.

When you substantially reduce the number of national tournaments and also the draws in the ones that are left you reduce everyone’s opportunities. I think that is why you see 800 signatures instead of 200 signatures on the petition.

The bottom line is the USTA does not care if every single person playing national junior tennis is opposed to the changes. They are well aware of how few people think this is a good idea. We could all sign the petition and they would not change a thing. At this point their pride is on the line and they will not reconsider.
 

Misterbill

Semi-Pro
It is certainly an emotional subject with valid points on both sides, however; just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a troll.

Can you help me out as I am not following your math. Wouldn't this only affect those players on the bubble? If so, this would reduce the 2,000 number down to about 200. I'm not being argumentative, I'm just trying to put things into perspective.

I think you are correct.

The constituent group I think would include those on the bubble and those who have visions of being on the bubble, which I think would account for the petition support numbers that exceed the approximate number of 200 on the bubble.
 

tennis5

Professional
It is certainly an emotional subject with valid points on both sides, however; just because someone disagrees with you, it doesn't make them a troll.

Can you help me out as I am not following your math. Wouldn't this only affect those players on the bubble? If so, this would reduce the 2,000 number down to about 200. I'm not being argumentative, I'm just trying to put things into perspective.

Chalk,

I never mind responding to you as you are polite and try to be considerate of another's view.

1) Perhaps this is a regional issue, but up north, adult tennis players don't know anything about junior tennis players or care about junior tennis, except to be annoyed that there are no courts for them due to the junior program, and they lost their knee brace in the parking lot.

2) Recreational junior tennis which up here accounts for most tennis is a fun event involving pizza on a Friday night, I kid you not.

3) So, in my view, the National Tournaments changes affect only a small percentage of the membership.

4) If you took each grade, 6th - 11th grade ( as seniors are busy with college visits), for boys and girls,
it would be 200 kids a grade who are affected. Blue chips you ask?
Yes, I have not met one parent of a blue chip who is happy with these changes for numerous reasons.
But, anyway, 200 x 5 grades = 1,000 juniors. And for the opposite sex, another 1000 juniors.
So, the poll should be hit by 2,000 parents.
Except, many highly ranked kids have siblings who play, so probably it would be 1500 parents.

5) Why is this petition a moot issue in my opinion, and most folks are not paying attention to it?
Due to PMac's aggressive and hostile language that it is their way or the highway....
 
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When the "future of Jr tennis" is affected I think all the USTA membership should be involved, our whole community. It shows how no one ( less that .1%) cares nor voted on this silly petition because the future of Jr Tennis is not affected. It is not the demise of Jr tennis in this country! Only the demise of the few whining tennis moms and dads that wants Jr ranked nationally at all costs, literally:oops:

PT,

it should involve more people, but unfortunately, many the above posters are right. Most USTA members support junior tennis as long as they play between 11:00 am and 3:00pm

The people who should support the petition are anyone who cares about process and believes that USTA is member based organization that should be responsive to the needs of its members, whether you agree with this particular set of rule changes or not. McEnroe, brewer and russel are just behaving like entitled, egomaniacal bullies, and should be called to account.

You remember this ?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6787776&postcount=49

So I can I assume you will sign the petition ? I mean isn't it just as important that the process by which the rules are changed are important as the result ? Or as long as its only rich buggers with untaleted kids getting screwed its ok ? If you are so confident the changes are good and that once people understand them better, we will acknowledge their wisdom, then what's the problem with putting them on hold for a year and reviewing them ? I mean, it's not like Lew Brewer hasn't been working at USTA over ten years already, what's another year going to matter.

I got a good laugh out of the NCAA changes 'crises'. I signed that petition, and disageed with the changes, but I couldn't help but kick at how everyone at USTA was bent out of shape, that the reccomendations were made without there involvement, input, etc. Taste of their own medicine.

P.s. Yes chalk, I know they did a survey three years ago.
 

tennis5

Professional
PT,

it should involve more people, but unfortunately, many the above posters are right. Most USTA members support junior tennis as long as they play between 11:00 am and 3:00pm

The people who should support the petition are anyone who cares about process and believes that USTA is member based organization that should be responsive to the needs of its members, whether you agree with this particular set of rule changes or not. McEnroe, brewer and russel are just behaving like entitled, egomaniacal bullies, and should be called to account.

You remember this ?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6787776&postcount=49

So I can I assume you will sign the petition ? I mean isn't it just as important that the process by which the rules are changed are important as the result ? Or as long as its only rich buggers with untaleted kids getting screwed its ok ? If you are so confident the changes are good and that once people understand them better, we will acknowledge their wisdom, then what's the problem with putting them on hold for a year and reviewing them ? I mean, it's not like Lew Brewer hasn't been working at USTA over ten years already, what's another year going to matter.

I got a good laugh out of the NCAA changes 'crises'. I signed that petition, and disageed with the changes, but I couldn't help but kick at how everyone at USTA was bent out of shape, that the reccomendations were made without there involvement, input, etc. Taste of their own medicine.

P.s. Yes chalk, I know they did a survey three years ago.


First, I only know people on this board that got the survey. I don't know anyone in person who did.

But, I am laughing at your post about the NCAA changes and the USTA outrage.
Interesting that the USTA can interject themselves into that argument,
but they can not gently lobby the NCAA for a two man cap ( or woman) on all college tennis teams.
 
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PT,

it should involve more people, but unfortunately, many the above posters are right. Most USTA members support junior tennis as long as they play between 11:00 am and 3:00pm

The people who should support the petition are anyone who cares about process and believes that USTA is member based organization that should be responsive to the needs of its members, whether you agree with this particular set of rule changes or not. McEnroe, brewer and russel are just behaving like entitled, egomaniacal bullies, and should be called to account.

You remember this ?

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showpost.php?p=6787776&postcount=49

So I can I assume you will sign the petition ? I mean isn't it just as important that the process by which the rules are changed are important as the result ? Or as long as its only rich buggers with untaleted kids getting screwed its ok ? If you are so confident the changes are good and that once people understand them better, we will acknowledge their wisdom, then what's the problem with putting them on hold for a year and reviewing them ? I mean, it's not like Lew Brewer hasn't been working at USTA over ten years already, what's another year going to matter.

I got a good laugh out of the NCAA changes 'crises'. I signed that petition, and disageed with the changes, but I couldn't help but kick at how everyone at USTA was bent out of shape, that the reccomendations were made without there involvement, input, etc. Taste of their own medicine.

P.s. Yes chalk, I know they did a survey three years ago.

Not going to sign the petition, it is the 4-5 stars kids with national ranking that are dodging the local competition because they do not want to get beat by the poor local. The jig is up. They know who they are. My kid could easily be one of the dodgers, thanks to the USTA by 2014 I will not have this opportunity, at least I am honest with myself, others are keeping this away from Jr,,,,,,,,,for a reason. If you really want an international tennis experience then go Jr ITF. Sorry about the tough love. :-|

FYI, up here in NE the adult USTA community is very involved with Jr tennis. I always give my court to Jr's anytime and every time.
 
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Not going to sign the petition, it is the 4-5 stars kids with national ranking that are dodging the local competition because they do not want to get beat by the poor local. The jig is up. They know who they are. My kid could easily be one of the dodgers, thanks to the USTA by 2014 I will not have this opportunity, at least I am honest with myself, others are keeping this away from Jr,,,,,,,,,for a reason. If you really want an international tennis experience then go Jr ITF. Sorry about the tough love. :-|

FYI, up here in NE the adult USTA community is very involved with Jr tennis. I always give my court to Jr's anytime and every time.

Also, Its nice to see that your acknowledge your support of the changes is all abut self-interest. How they were past and whoever gets hurts doesn't appear to matter to you. As long as they help your player. Honesty, I gotta give you that.

But don't be so narcissistic to think everyone the same as you or that you know anything about me or my 'player', or project your own selfish approach on everyone else. A lot of good people signed that petition who don't have juniors 'in the system', are you really going to try to disparage the motives of everyone who is appalled by these changes and they way they were passed ?
 
Not going to sign the petition, it is the 4-5 stars kids with national ranking that are dodging the local competition because they do not want to get beat by the poor local. The jig is up.

Also, no one is arguing the current system is perfect and can't be improved. Signing the petition is not an endorsement of the status quo. There are other ways to solve the problems you mentioned above. That doesn't mean the system they have proposed is the right answer. Some cures are worse then a the disease, i.e, the operation was a success but the patient died.

I think people should care about all the TUAT kids who are being brought into the system. If TUAT is success as they claim it is, which I believe it is, the amount of kids entering the 12 year old age groups in 2014 will be ballooning, just as regional and national tournament opportunities are plummeting by 75%. Play in your section they say, and play as many matches as you can,matches, matches , matches is the mantra, but sectional tournaments with national ranking points are being cut in half. Sorry, makes no sense.
 
Also, Its nice to see that your acknowledge your support of the changes is all abut self-interest. How they were past and whoever gets hurts doesn't appear to matter to you. As long as they help your player. Honesty, I gotta give you that.

But don't be so narcissistic to think everyone the same as you or that you know anything about me or my 'player', or project your own selfish approach on everyone else. A lot of good people signed that petition who don't have juniors 'in the system', are you really going to try to disparage the motives of everyone who is appalled by these changes and they way they were passed ?

it seems you are the one who is denying the poor local kid who can not travel, shame, talk about self interest and narcissistic:oops:

noticed some who signed the petition are dodgers with $$$$$$ the names popped out right away, many are anonymous,,,,,,,,,,,,, for a reason :roll:
 
Also, no one is arguing the current system is perfect and can't be improved. Signing the petition is not an endorsement of the status quo. There are other ways to solve the problems you mentioned above. That doesn't mean the system they have proposed is the right answer. Some cures are worse then a the disease, i.e, the operation was a success but the patient died.

I think people should care about all the TUAT kids who are being brought into the system. If TUAT is success as they claim it is, which I believe it is, the amount of kids entering the 12 year old age groups in 2014 will be ballooning, just as regional and national tournament opportunities are plummeting by 75%. Play in your section they say, and play as many matches as you can,matches, matches , matches is the mantra, but sectional tournaments with national ranking points are being cut in half. Sorry, makes no sense.

"the operation was a success but the patient did not respond", :cry: last time I heard this was in the hospital where a fellow surgeon to my father said the exact same thing to the patients family:confused:

In the case of Jr tennis, drastic measures had to be taken, TAUT and 2014 rule on both ends of the funnel (not flask). It makes sense.:)
 
some who signed the petition are dodgers with $$$$$$ the names popped out right away:

You support the changes because you believe it takes something away from the people with money. It is not because someone is helped; it is purely because something is taken away. Sad

Not going to sign the petition, it is the 4-5 stars kids with national ranking that are dodging the local competition because they do not want to get beat by the poor local.

You become a 4-5 star kid by playing and beating everyone. Stars are a head to head ranking system. You can play only local tournaments and gain a 5 star ranking.

Post the name of a 5 start player who you think is dodging the local competition.

The only question is what excuse you will use for not posting the name.
 
T

TCF

Guest
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Misterbill

Semi-Pro
Ya jealous insecurity has always been an apparent theme there.

As apparently is flawed thinking.

Look, Pro Tour can surely speak for himself. But reducing family wealth as a criterion for achieving success in a sport gives a whole bunch to families who do not enjoy wealth. And there are....in every society....more poor people than rich people.

Posters can have good reasons for supporting the changes or not......... but saying that getting family money out of the success equation (or at least limiting it) = jealous insecurity, leads me to see more of the paucity of that side of the argument than its strengths.
 

barringer97

Semi-Pro
I hope people realize that TAUT kids need very intensive coaching after they come to us to move on to real tennis. The TAUT program leads to crazy forehands, wild wind up take backs, and smashing the soft balls like mad. The TAUT kids are almost all shocked when we get them on a full court and make them move and break a sweat.

I have taught kids for 20 years and have a good idea how kids should be able to move at various ages. The TAUT kids are not movers.

Dude! So true.

My daughter is 7 and we are now doing Green Dot full court. After a couple of years hitting red, then orange, she just doesn't move...at all.

Finally, we are getting there, but I can't tell you how many short balls she lets drop on two bounces. It drives me bat sh*t.

Her mechanics are pretty good, just her footwork is *****. She is the fastest kid in her group (she beats everyone, including kids 3 years older in sprints), but she won't move for the ball.
 

klu375

Semi-Pro
I hope people realize that TAUT kids need very intensive coaching after they come to us to move on to real tennis. The TAUT program leads to crazy forehands, wild wind up take backs, and smashing the soft balls like mad. The TAUT kids are almost all shocked when we get them on a full court and make them move and break a sweat.

I have taught kids for 20 years and have a good idea how kids should be able to move at various ages. The TAUT kids are not movers.

With the TAUT kids, I have to take 10 steps backwards. Fix their take backs, racquet drop, and their footwork.

Frankly its like the mechanic that says he will fix your car for $100, unless you work on it first, then its $200. I can take a beginner through my progressions of learning the swing pattern, then hand feeds, racquet feeds, rallies in less time then it takes to fix a TAUT kid. I can teach a total beginner to position for and control a regulation ball in less time than it takes me to get a TAUT kid to do so.

It is fine - USTA understands that. They know that TAUT will create US Open spectators and not US Open players. So most of the TAUT players will not be tournaments players and they will not need many opportunities to play competitively outside of their section.
 
I hope people realize that TAUT kids need very intensive coaching after they come to us to move on to real tennis. The TAUT program leads to crazy forehands, wild wind up take backs, and smashing the soft balls like mad. The TAUT kids are almost all shocked when we get them on a full court and make them move and break a sweat.

I have taught kids for 20 years and have a good idea how kids should be able to move at various ages. The TAUT kids are not movers.

With the TAUT kids, I have to take 10 steps backwards. Fix their take backs, racquet drop, and their footwork.

Frankly its like the mechanic that says he will fix your car for $100, unless you work on it first, then its $200. I can take a beginner through my progressions of learning the swing pattern, then hand feeds, racquet feeds, rallies in less time then it takes to fix a TAUT kid. I can teach a total beginner to position for and control a regulation ball in less time than it takes me to get a TAUT kid to do so.

I haven't taught a pure beginner in years. Are you saying that TAUT, which I refer to as Quickstart- not sure f they are the same thing, hinders the development of tennis players? What do you think of all the 5 and 6 year olds in Quickstart. In my day I felt most kids under 8 were too young and lessons were a waste. Like I said earlier, I used the Oscar Wegner videos and method on my last new youngster and he turned out fine. What do you think of Wegner's approach?
 

ga tennis

Hall of Fame
I know i will not let my 7 year old do the quickstart tournaments. In Georgia i have seen the 10 and under tournaments and all i see is bad technique and alot of bunting. I see kids standing with no footwork. When my son is 8 i will let him play 12 and under with the green dots with a 27 inch racket.
 
I hope people realize that TAUT kids need very intensive coaching after they come to us to move on to real tennis. The TAUT program leads to crazy forehands, wild wind up take backs, and smashing the soft balls like mad. The TAUT kids are almost all shocked when we get them on a full court and make them move and break a sweat.

I have taught kids for 20 years and have a good idea how kids should be able to move at various ages. The TAUT kids are not movers.

With the TAUT kids, I have to take 10 steps backwards. Fix their take backs, racquet drop, and their footwork.

Frankly its like the mechanic that says he will fix your car for $100, unless you work on it first, then its $200. I can take a beginner through my progressions of learning the swing pattern, then hand feeds, racquet feeds, rallies in less time then it takes to fix a TAUT kid. I can teach a total beginner to position for and control a regulation ball in less time than it takes me to get a TAUT kid to do so.

Kids are very creative. We have a kid who has a mean forehand slice that will only work with the green ball. Literally hits the ground and rolls, no bounce at all. It would still be a hard to hit shot with yellow, but it would bounce, even if was low, with the green, its unhittable, it just hits the ground and rolls....
 
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