Played with a tweener: eye-opener

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by ferrari_827, Apr 27, 2005.

  1. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    Well, this past weekend, I switched rackets with a tennis partner for fun, he using my IPrestige Mid and me using a powerful Head tweener (Si 6 ?).

    Anyway, I noticed an immediate power drop in his shots. Surprisingly, though, I was surprised at how well I was blasting all these flat shots. I'm certain that I would struggle to hit these type of flat shots with my player sticks. For spin shots or short finesse type volleys, my player sticks were better, but for sheer power on flat serves/groundstrokes these tweener sticks work wonders.

    With a 107sq.in. powerful tweener there's not much thought to mechanics. Swing in a straight line and launch the ball like a rocket. I couldn't believe how easy groundstrokes and flat serves were. With a player racket, proper mechanics are much more important.

    This actually posed the question which I would never have dreamed of before, could I actually play better with a tweener ?? Horrors.
     
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  2. Jack Romeo

    Jack Romeo Professional

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    tweeners do make it a lot easier to play. i had a similar experience. i used to play with a yonex mp tour 1 98 because i had a full fast swing. the instructors and the people i played against always told me i had "classic" or "graceful" strokes. but i'm not a naturally strong athlete. i don't have good stamina. so in many matches i played, towards the end, i got tired and my strokes got shorter and the resulting shots weaker. i lost a lot of matches because i got tired. then i switched to the more powerful "tweener" the v-con 17 os. from the first hit, everything seemed to take a lot less effort. now i don't get as tired at the end of a match as i used to. currently i'm using a volkl cat 7 (another tweener).

    now i know most of you players-stick fans will say i should have just improved my strength and stamina by working out more. well, i hate working out. i hate the gym. i hate the treadmill. i could probably go out running, but i'm living in the center of the city where it's so polluted that running outdoors is actually counterproductive.

    so instead of working hard, i just changed to a tweener racket. now i'm having more fun on the court - which is the whole point of playing this sport in the first place.
     
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  3. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    Great points, both of you. This topic has come up many times before and you both found out what other folks who made the switch know. Tweeners allow you play longer and better by helping to conserve energy and effort. Switching to one from a player's stick does require time to adjust stroke mechanics and speed, but its not that big a change. There is such a broad variety of weight and flex profiles in the tweener category these days almost anyone can find a model to move to from an older, heavier frame. Some folks do it in incremental steps, others go right from 12.5 oz. to 10.5 in one move.

    Sadly lots of folks bail out after a few tries, defaulting back to their old strokes and frames. I learned on wood so my strokes were about as long as you can get. Took me about 6 months to make the switch from a 12.5 oz frame and I'm still making fine adjustments 2 years later. Strategic addition of weight to my chosen tweener has helped a lot.

    Good luck with the switch and stay patient. It pays off.
    -k-
     
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  4. Ben42

    Ben42 Semi-Pro

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    Which stick are you playing now, netman?
     
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  5. Leon

    Leon Rookie

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    It's true it's easer to play with tweener. So the question is, how much are you serious about tennis, and about your performance?
    If the answer is not very serious, then play with tweener.
    If the answer is serious, then hit the gym , work on your endurance and get the player racquet, since it will enforce proper technique/mechanic, which will allow you to move beyond 3.5
     
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  6. Superior_Forehand

    Superior_Forehand Rookie

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    WEAKLING!!!:) :)
     
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  7. Jack Romeo

    Jack Romeo Professional

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    if you think me switching from a players stick to a tweener means i'm getting less serious with my game you gotta think again. even when i was using the mp tour 1 i was never a really serious player. i played twice a week and didn't do drills or any of that boring stuff.

    corollary to that, there are actually 4.0-5.0 players who use granny sticks. i was surprised with one of the guys i know. he's been playing for 10 years and plays a lot of inter-club tournaments. i think he's a 5.0. he used to have a prince tt vendetta (a tweener-player frame). he practices and plays almost everyday and works out too. when he wore out his vendetta, instead of going for a pog or nxg graphite, he started using the tt ****** - a real granny stick. his game didn't seem to suffer. i have no idea how he adapted. he just told me the racket felt great and that was that. now he's using the head lm 8. he actually says he's won more trophies using granny sticks!
     
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  8. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    The question is not if my game can adapt to a tweener or granny stick, it's whether my pride or vanity will adjust to it (!)

    Seriously though, I'd have to play extensively with a tweener and see if the additional power vs. less control is one that works in my favor.
     
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  9. ollinger

    ollinger Legend

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    Leon, lacking imagination, fails to address the question of whether the "proper" technique, developped when there were only 15 ounce wood racquets of perhaps 65 square inches, is still the best way for most people (defined as non-professional players who can't practice 6 hours/day) to play the game. My own experience and the posts above largely suggest no. And more and more successful juniors (one of the best in my area uses a V-Con 17), the pros of tomorrow, are using tweeners.
    ________
    HottCaramelo live
     
    Last edited: Sep 3, 2011
    #9
  10. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    Ben42,

    I'm playing 2. Main stick is the TT Hornet MP. Got it leaded up to just under 11 oz and about 6-7 pts head light. I also use the Pro Kennex 5g. Some may argue that its a player stick, but since its under 12 oz I consider it a tweener.

    Leon, you sound like a real purist. Maybe you should round up some wood frames, say a Jack Kramer or Dunlop Maxply. You're not a real player until you can win with those. Graphite is for grannies, at least that's what I use to hear 20 years ago. :)

    -k-
     
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  11. BancroftFRS

    BancroftFRS New User

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    Try the Shark. I went from wood to a 200g to Prince GC to the Shark. I'm getting older and slowing down, the Shark reversed the clock
     
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  12. Ben42

    Ben42 Semi-Pro

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    That's funny, netman. I use the 5g now. It's got just a little lead a 10 and 2 and weighs in at exactly 12oz. I consider it a player's stick.

    I'm looking maybe to go just a little lighter so I can hit more consistantly. Something like the V1 Classic or an 03Red.
     
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  13. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    ben42, Lead at 10 and 2 must be a common tweak on the 5g. Mine has the same. There are just days where the Hornet and I don't mesh. Shots are going long and serves are not going where I want. I'll whip out the 5g and it usually solves the problem. You can get some good power out of the 5g by stringing it down around 53-54 lbs.

    Maybe the the new Ki 10 might work for you. Its just under 11 oz and seems to be built on the same mold as the Heritage/Laver S, which is a really nice player's frame.
     
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  14. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Yes, but can he respect himself in the morning? ;)
     
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  15. BancroftFRS

    BancroftFRS New User

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    It's all about winning........
     
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  16. Leon

    Leon Rookie

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    About pros, the pros really can look for a Little extra...after all they are pro...they already have they game in the first place.

    I'm talking about recreational players, that's where in my opinion player racquet does help, by forcing into proper stroke mechanic.

    I saw some 4.0-4.5 players, that use to serve with semi-western and eastern grip, didn't have follow through, or any swing, and all they did is relied on the power the racquet provided, to return the ball back. Yep it might be successful, but in my opinion not worth it in a long run.

    P.S: By player racquet I mean the low power racquet
     
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  17. TennisMD

    TennisMD Semi-Pro

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    Interesting in that I have been going round and round with this very same delema. Recently demoed and eventulally bought a Aeroprodrive and liked it thought it made the game easier had it weighted in the handle to be 12 oz. Then started to notice arm soreness and pulled out my N Code 6.1 95 so here a tweener Aero most here would classify as such and the N code classified as a players. Last night played a very competetive match first set with the Aero and second with the N code. Played great with both hitting the line, moving opponent frome side to side. In the end I asked him which rkt did I seem to play better with and which rkt hit a heavier ball, the answer was the N code. Score 9-7; 7-5. Just a brief experiment
     
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  18. Zverev

    Zverev Professional

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    Sometimes the question is: CAN you play with tweener?
    Every time I play with tweener, after couple of weeks, my elbow starts aching, so I return to HPS 7.1 and my elbow returns to normal.

    I can't have control over mishits, I can chose racket though.

    Heavy racket is more stable against hard hitters as well,
    tweener just twisting in your hands.
     
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  19. erik-the-red

    erik-the-red Semi-Pro

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    Use whatever works.

    Personally, I'm trying to move from a tweener (TT Bandit OS) to a stick that requires me to generate more of my own power, though not necessarily a true player's stick (ie. Ti.Radical OS).
     
    #19
  20. netman

    netman Hall of Fame

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    I've already posted earlier on the myth that lighter racquets cause tennis elbow. Tennis elbow has been around since wood racquets weighed 14 oz and had the flex of a wet noodle. TE is caused by cumulative trauma to the connective tissue in the elbow. Bad technique can accelerate or exacerbate an existing problem. If a light racquet encourages bad technique then it can be a culprit. But light weight unto itself is not the cause of TE. So if you pick up a light frame and suddenly experience TE, its a good sign your technique needs work. Probably the heavier frame is hindering your swing or weakening your stroke, thereby protecting your elbow from your bad technique. Granted heavier weight can help win the collision with a tennis ball, but good technique does too.

    Its nice to see such a lively thread. Things have been kind of slow around here lately.

    -k-
     
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  21. antontd

    antontd Semi-Pro

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    in short term tweeners are better, but if you stick with low powered racquets your game will improve IMO.(if you are not too old)
     
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  22. bamboo

    bamboo Rookie

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    I wouldn't mind limiting myself to being as good as Gasquet or Nadal :mrgreen:
     
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  23. Safina

    Safina Semi-Pro

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    If AGASSI has the courage and adaptability to try a tweener if it will help his game... we shouldn't be more stubborn... I say this as I just bought 88 sq inch racquets... DOH! If I get beat by a tweener this weekend I'll be pizzed.
    wish i would take my own advice sometimes...
     
    #23
  24. AndrewD

    AndrewD Legend

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    Zverev makes a really good point. Can you play as successfully with a 'tweener' (and by that I mean a genuine tweener, not one as borderline as the PD or the LM Instinct) as you do with a regular frame?

    Personally, I find my shots consistantly going long, my serve and shots at net lacking control and me feeling not quite in charge of my game. With a regular frame if I miss a shot its into the net and I can automatically feel what Ive done wrong (usually tried to pull the ball or gotten wristy) and my serve, while less inherently powerful, has more direction (therefore tougher to return), my net shots more control (which you need at net), my unforced errors reduced (almost nothing going long) and my ability to put pressure on my opponent increased.

    However, all that being said, if I could achieve the same result with a 'tweener' I'd happily change over.
     
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  25. 0.2RatedPlayer

    0.2RatedPlayer Rookie

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    i hit some of my biggest forehands with a babolat. i was able to crush any shot that was sitting with lots of spin too, it was crazy. my original stick is a tour 90 btw.
     
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  26. gokou703

    gokou703 Rookie

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    i spent half my season playing with the pog midplus, then the second half with the pog longbody. i basically wasted my last season of eligibility trying losing matches, and refusing to go back to my tweener ti radical OS. it wasn't until the end of the season until i finally gave in and went back to the TI then started playing well enough to win matches. to keep things short, play with the racket that you think you can WIN the most matches with. don't worry if people talk down to you since you're using a tweener. all that matters is that you feel comfortable and confident that it's the racket that will give you the best chance of winning.
     
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  27. Boris

    Boris Rookie

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    Great, great point! I think a lot of people here (myself included) in the back of their mind think/visualize "I've got beautiful strokes, now if I could be just a bit more consistent and fit, I'd give a pro a hell of a run for his money". And with that comes the right/need of a player's stick.

    Kidding aside, there is a beautiful variety of sticks out there, from tweener to tweener/player to player's racquets, just choose what is most confortable and gives best performance. For me it was a tweener/player's racquet.

    Cheers!
     
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  28. Boris

    Boris Rookie

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    One more thing to add to my previous post. One of my nemesis at my club, a 4.5 player, uses a tweener (Head i.S-something). I doubly hate him, for beating me, and for doing it with that stick. In reality I probably hate myself for not being humble enough to go back one more step and try an even more powerful racquet...
     
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  29. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    The irony is that the racket which I seem to win the most matches with, although I don't particularly like the feel, is the IPrestige Mid, which has just about the lowest power rating of my rackets. I should love the IPrestige Mid because it wins, but that's not the way it works.
     
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  30. sandro

    sandro Semi-Pro

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    ...I'm going to demo an Aerodrive next week...
     
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  31. Zeta

    Zeta Rookie

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    My father (55) plays with an Head I.X6, due to some elbow problem.
    Sometimes I try to play with that frame: a REAL open string pattern (16x19 on 112sq). No way: I always play too long - even with the most compact swing possible. The only way for me to play with that frame is "on the net": I stay 2 mt in court, and volley every ball.

    I believe that exist the right frame for everyone way of play. Just look around, take demo and enjoy. And pay attention to string too...
     
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  32. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    Another V-Con 17 player here....

    Use what works. Ignore the labels.

    I'm a 5.0 and the 17 is "technically" a Tweener. I demoed almost two dozen sticks of all sorts and *hated* most of them. I almost immediately knew the 17 was the stick for me, the moment I hit with it.

    I'm 48 and use the 17: The 19 year old Div III Team player I hit with a lot can't stand losing to me. (I used to think it was becasue "I'm so old." On this thread I've learned it might ALSO be because his ego hates losing to someone using the stick I use...? Cool!) It's a HOOT...!

    - KK
     
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  33. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    K.Karl, youngsters hate losing to geezers, and *especially* ones wielding powerful tweener sticks. At least you're not using a granny stick though.
     
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  34. lanky

    lanky Rookie

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    I have a slightly different issue.When I pull out my tweener (PK 15g pse) my serve is absolutely awesome but I have problems keeping ground strokes in court.However I win matches, often easily, because people cant return my serve and I blast returns and avoid rallies.Nice tennis-no, enjoyable tennis -not really, successful tennis -very much.Im trying a halfway racquet at present (slaz X1) players racquet with a decent serve but still theres nothing like serve power on a tweener.
     
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  35. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    Lanky, that's my dilemma. I suspect that with a tweener I could blast people off the court and not even have to construct points. Is this what I really want from tennis ??
    Probably not.
     
    #35
  36. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    Ferrari would be on the ATP if he could just force himself to use that tweener.
     
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  37. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    NBM, lol !

    Really good players (and I'm not talking ATP) would adjust to the powerful flat shots and probably hit some awkward short balls which would likely be overhit beyond the baseline with a powerful tweener. There's always a counter tactic.
     
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  38. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    Doooh!!!

    "Welcome to Wal-mart. I could earn hundreds of thousands of dollars winning tennis matches against the best players in the world, but this is more 'honest' work."

    - KK
     
    #38
  39. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Ferrari,
    I think that post gets to the heart of the matter. Do you want to play tennis or do you just want to win? Do you want to win at any cost? Even at the expense of having fun or damage to your arm?

    This problem has been cited numerous times by experts and commentators as to why tennis may be losing its popularity and appeal. (Is this why most of us still can't get The Tennis Channel?) It's just too boring for spectators to watch players hit winners left and right without any strategy nor construction of points. It's not fun for either players nor spectators. Nobody likes to stand on the baseline and see the ball blasted past them over and over without any chance to get to the ball by an overweight guy on the other side of the net with a huge granny stick.

    Let's put it this way. Some people enjoy hunting and do it for fun. They wake up very early in the morning and take their single shot rifles and camp out in the woods all day hoping to get a shot at a deer or whatever. It's not easy and it's hard work, but that's why they enjoy it. Now do you think these hunters would enjoy the sport of hunting more if they could stay in bed, sleep in till noon, and wake up and just send in a cruise missle into the woods and blow up 10 acres of woods and then go and collect the dead deer? It gets the job done and they win with almost no effort nor work, but I doubt they would enjoy it.
     
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  40. ferrari_827

    ferrari_827 Professional

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    I guess it depends on the person, but I appreciate the various subtleties of tennis, and most of all, constructing points. A missile launcher might be good for the ego, but not for appreciating all that tennis has to offer.
     
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  41. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I say go ahead and play with a missile launcher. I eat pace for lunch. In fact, if you want to beat me, you'd do better by playing like a smart dinker with good placement. I tend to over hit the dink shots when I have to run around for them.

    Missile launchers will only get you so far. Maybe you should just find some better competition. :)
     
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  42. Kaptain Karl

    Kaptain Karl Hall Of Fame

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    I believe this is an over-simplification. (Indeed, there are *some* who have the "win-at-all-costs" mentality. But not all; not even most.)

    Too many instructors ... too many programs ... too many USTA and USTPA clinics "teach" our sport in ways already proven to be ineffective. Tennis isn't hard; tennis has been introduced in ways that make it hard. (The USTPA is coming around. I hope it's not too late....)

    The best player in the world still constructs points ... against those who many would label mere Bangers, using little strategy or development. (Here, at 6,200 feet, we have a bunch of "Bangers". It's tougher to "construct points" in such thin air, so banging is the easy "strategy" to fall back on. But we still have many strategists playing, and winning, the game through development of points .. through real strategy.)

    Ah-ha...! Some people just can't take being beaten by "Old Farts." That's what really bugs them.

    The truth is, I couldn't control the T-2000 ... or the Red Head ... or that gold Yonex when I was 18 ... and I can't control many of these "granny sticks" today. If someone actually CAN control them -- and win -- good for them.

    - KK
     
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  43. bamboo

    bamboo Rookie

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    Keep winning with your "technical tweener" - agree wholeheartedly with the signature as well!
     
    #43
  44. wolfpackfive

    wolfpackfive New User

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    It's true tweeners can serve bombs, but you'd better be able to put some movement on that ball. Even a moderate player can hit a hard serve into the court if its coming straight in time after time. I use a "pleener" because I can't keep my forehand in the court with a tweener. But my inferior backhand suffers, OH MY, it suffers. I run around the backhand when I can but this gets harder as the match wears on. I gonna have to change to a tweener soon. Age is catching up with me. But god I'm gonna hate to pull back the forehand that I love so much.
     
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  45. esrb

    esrb Rookie

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    Changing sticks with my wife (who plays with a Head I S10 (1250 sq/in)), is fun....she cannot hit as hard as with her butterfly net, and i hit bullets...
    Her racquet is very light, some head heavy but very tweener. I play with my LM Prestige mid....sometimes, i think what would happen, if all pro-players change to tweener racquets...can anyone imagine Nadal hitting with a 112 sq/in stick??
     
    #45
  46. farwellbooth

    farwellbooth New User

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    What defines a tweener? Geesh I need to know what I'm playing with and what everyone thinks of me when I pull my racket out...
     
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  47. Zverev

    Zverev Professional

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    "A truth does not triumph by convincing
    its opponents and making them see the light, but
    rather because its opponents eventually die and a
    new generation grows up that is familiar with it."
    -- Max Planck

    I am not sure why seemingly intelligent people keep persisting in the notion that light stiff rackets don't cauze TE. Tennis ball travelling at 100 miles per hour has kinetic energy that has to be absorbed somewhere.
    And it's either racket or your arm - the choice is yours.
    I am sure that eventually they will be able to make oversize tennis racket which will weigh 60 gramms, around the weight of the ball.
    How much energy that thing would be able to absorb?
    How would your arm feel after playing with that thing?

    I am certain that game of tennis was disigned (unintentionally, maybe, but just to make things enjoyable) for certain racket/ball ratio.
    And if you move too far from that, it won't be tennis anymore.

    Yes, maybe in the future they will grow people with artificially beefed up tendons - we will call them tru Pros - and they will play some tennis like game, blasting serves that would break sound barrier.
    And the public will cheer every time it's broken.
     
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  48. Boris

    Boris Rookie

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    Very correct. Power without placement will not get you very far. If it does, just find better opponents and you will *need* to construct points.
     
    #48
  49. RedKat

    RedKat Rookie

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    Agree with Zverev

    I can't play with a tweener. Used to play all my life with player's sticks (PS 6.0 85, then i.Prestige Mid). Lately moved to PD and liked all that power it gave. Performance-wise I got much better game with PD and won considerably more matches on average. But after one year got severe TE. Now I'm on lay off already for 2 months and going back to basics, to player's
     
    #49
  50. Leon

    Leon Rookie

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    :D :D :D

    Just got subscription to tennisplayer.net, and already learned so much about technique. Now I understand why so many people (I'm talking about average person), are not able to create enough pace on the ball (without extra help from the racquet), because luck of technique. Again pros, is different story, if you used to hit the ball from age 3, play with what ever you like.
     
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