Please watch and join the convo if you want

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by TheLambsheadrep, Jan 25, 2013.

  1. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DdSWqlFGHqE
    Here are some of my strokes with some straight arm break down at 2:28. Please let me know what you think about the shots, and feel free to get into the thread that some of that break down is there for
    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=449165

    I would like one thing addressed specifically in this thread, though. I said this in the thread linked above but think it's place is better here:

    A post by 1HBH Rocks said (referring to Fed and Nadal) said “The reason they hit with a straight arm is that they perform an arm extension in their take back while they pronate their forearm a bit.” I see truth in this when watching my video, even though it is not always the full case with the pros or me. A lot of slow motion analysis shows that Fed and Nadal don’t have the most radical take back pronations and hit with straight arms, while pros that do have pretty radical take back pronations (Nadal, Wawrinka off the top of my head) have bent arms and pros with little, if any, take back pronations (Murray, Blake, Agassi) have bent arms as well. To try to build on this, I attempted to find a correlation between how parallel the racquet face gets to the court before the forward swing and if it results in a straight/bent arm swing, but found no real pattern. Could grip or footwork have something to do with it, I do not know. As for me, on some of my shots I have a straight arm and on others I don’t, and I’m not seeing a great reason as to why. I thought it could have been about the height of the oncoming ball, but there is not enough consistency to say that is so. The most apparent thing I see (and this should also be common sense) is that when I took the ball early, I almost always had a straight arm as I am reaching for the ball, but the opposite could not be said about late/close to the feet shots. Anyway, I found this interesting and will continue to look into it.

    Please let me know what you think on this matter
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
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  2. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    By the way, the racquet is a Ti. Carbon 5001, and the strings are the FACTORY SYNTHETIC. That's right, I haven't changed out the strings yet, and I am still getting great results with spin, accuracy, and consistency. Can't wait to get some kevlar in there. And without getting too deep into another dividing topic, I did lead up the main racquet of the video to 383 grams, 7.5 pts HL, and SW of 365, so without the calculations in front of me i think the Mgr/I is just under 21. It feels absolutely awesome, so now I am also convinced there is something to Mgr/I.
     
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  3. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Keep the right hand elbow down and bent on take back - the arm gets straight only right before impact
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
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  4. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Oh and bend those knees, all the forehand and MG/i musings are moot with footwork like that.
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
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  5. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    so are you saying some of the shots are hit with a straight arm because incorrect take back/back swing technique?
     
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  6. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    During matches and even just hitting for fun when I'm being moved around I def get more knee bend. This was a casual session, but yes, knee bend is very important in the kinetic chain, so thanks for lookin' out for me haha
     
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  7. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Don't worry so much if your arm is 100% straight or 90%, that will depend on timing and shot you are trying to hit. Federer does not always hit with a straight arm. Most important thing is to load up the wrist and throw the racket so it brushes the ball upwards (spin) and drives it forward(pace), straight arm is a small detail you shouldn't so much worry about.

    Just bend that elbow in and from there relax the arm, let it smoothly fall down and behind a bit and just throw the racket forward and up with the tension build up in the shoulder and the wrist from rotation of the torso for effortless power and spin.

    Its a bit complicated to explain but once you feel that effortless groove you'll understand. A higher weight/SW racket helps.
     
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  8. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    I know you weren't talking about this, but I never knew that I hit some shots with a straight(ish) arm until I saw the footage. Now I want to know why I go between straight and bent since I am not doing it on purpose.

    But you were talking about the elbow - so you want me to try to keep it closer to my body? More like the shot at 12 seconds in? I think out of the whole video that shot has my elbow tucked in the most (and it was a nice crack I must say), but I also didn't bring the racquet as far down/under the ball on the back swing, and I know from my experience that that shot has a very small margin of error. Should I be trying to do both (elbow in + still getting low/under the ball on the back swing)?

    I did say that the racquet weight 383 grams (+13.5oz) and has a SW of 365, I don't think those factors need to be changed haha. Thanks for the tips, I'm still all ears
     
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2013
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  9. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    Your arm goes too far behind your body. Watch Fed/Nadal.
     
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  10. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

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    yes. straight arm is good but you want the take back with bent elbow and extend at the transition from backswing to forward swing (because the arm is relaxed and the elbow going forward while the momentum carries the forearm still backwards)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmhvKafCYsk

    your takeback costs a lot of time against hard balls. but I like your contact, looks clean.
     
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  11. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

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    You know I think it's so difficult to teach someone how to hit the straight arm/pronation technique forehand because it's so difficult to describe without bogging someone down with all these mechanical motions they're supposed to be performing.

    Here's what you do:

    1. Pronate your arm in the backswing.
    2. Find the ball with your hand and brush up and across.
     
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  12. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Yea basically just keep the elbow down and close to your body on the take back, but right at the end of take back start smoothly straightening your arm (in downward direction since your elbow is still at body side) and relax it at that point. Body rotates forward. What this does is lets the racket fall down and behind the stroke and then throws it out and forward with up ward rotation around your now straight arm.

    I don't see much difference at 12 seconds that you talk about.

    Watch how federer does it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc&feature=youtube_gdata_player
     
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  13. pvaudio

    pvaudio Legend

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    This is all I came in here to say. Don't bend at the waist for low balls, drop your weight down instead.
     
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  14. Calor1

    Calor1 New User

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    Honestly I stopped watching when after the 10th time you let it bounce twice in less than 30 seconds...
    If you can't hit 10 balls in a row without letting one bounce twice you should stand a little closer.
    Make sure you're basic technique is right and don't overthink too much.
    Than hit a lot of balls and when you are able to hit at least 100 balls without missing you can start changing minor things if necessary.
    http://www.fuzzyyellowballs.com/
    This is a great site, take a look.
     
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  15. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    The balls weren't from a new can and if you look at the wall, there's a lot of bad wood. Plus, you don't get as much return angle from a wall as you do a person. Just saying
     
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  16. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Thanks, I will go out next times and try to make it a habit
     
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  17. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    I think it's not good to stay too close to the wall for ground strokes. You will be rushed and will start making shortcuts with your technique.

    i actually think it's ok to let the ball bounce twice, or hit harder/deeper so that it bounces once (i prefer this as it is more realistic). The key is to be consistent.
     
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  18. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    True. Plus, the distance of the service line on the tennis court to the hitting wall is about the length as the baseline to the net. It's a practice for full ground strokes, so if you're still hitting the aprox height on the wall as you would over the net, it doesn't matter how many times it bounces to you. The only downside is that you get a lot of ankle to knee high balls, but you can still get those in a match. It's not the prettiest thing to watch, but it is OK to do
     
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  19. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Sitting here right now, I can feel the difference between keeping my elbow bent for a long time vs a short time on the take back – the long time motion is dictated by the arm/forearm, and I can feel the rotation of the racquet is more compact as it goes around my elbow like an upside down pendulum. The short time motion is dictated by my shoulder, which produces that higher-reaching and loopier back swing, and unless I willingly pull my elbow in to make it bend it doesn’t seem to bend again. So take back dictated by the elbow is good, while by the shoulder is bad…?

    I am not necessarily striving for a straight arm forehand, but I do think I see what you're saying about still needing the elbow bend - the bend breaks the arm into two parts: arm above the elbow and arm below the elbow (forearm). After you go into the back swing (so momentum for the entire arm is backwards) with a bent yet loose entire arm, when you then go into the forward swing the arm above the elbow will lead the swing (with the help of a shoulder/core/hip turn). The pull from the bodily turns and upper arm (which now has forward momentum) plus the looseness of the entire arm will make the elbow un-bend/extend. Without the bend, the arm is just one moving part now and the forearm (which still has backward momentum or about no momentum at all) is yanked up to speed. Essentially, whiplash of the forearm straightens the full arm into the shot. Is this the long-winded way to say what you said?haha

    I will work on the take back (see the other thread for that convo), and thanks for the contact compliment
     
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  20. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Sorry, I was thinking you were talking about the elbow being close to the body at contact, not during the back swing. So you are correct with the lack of difference of that shot, my bad
     
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  21. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    This is specifically to hit a straight arm forehand similar to what dominikk was saying, right?

    I wouldn't say that now I'm trying to hit with a straight arm, but ever since I saw that I was in the video I would like to know why it was happening. Some of the strokes were straight arm at contact and others were bent arm, and I would look at the stroke motions from start to finish and not see much of a difference between the two. I have been looking at many different aspects of the video but now I am trying to just focus on finding what's making that difference, if anyone picks up on it or just knows why, please let me know :)
     
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  22. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Its timing impact - if you are late for the shot you'll probably hit with bent arm, if you are early you'll meet the ball more in front on a straight arm.

    Here is some of my stroking from 3 years ago:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m05auF9VXZU&list=UURvQkhpbqgRyRpvORvRYogg&index=7

    When that ball is coming in quick and high I have to bend my arm in to hit it late.
     
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  23. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Nice video, thanks. So in my video you're saying the differences between a straight and bent arm are from a matter of timing, but just curious - how much does technique come into play? I mean, would you say in general that either 1. When you hit the ball (timing) mostly determines a shot being straight or bent armed and technique can disrupt this, or 2. How you hit the ball (technique) mostly determines a shot being straight or bent armed and timing can disrupt this. If I am on the right track with asking this, I don't think that timing and technique can play equal parts, because then hitting with a straight or bent arm would be totally random
     
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  24. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Other than someone being late with straight arm technique, there is ALSO a double bend technique (djoker uses it and most of WTA). Personally I think it's kinda ugly and in the end game less efficient, but it's valid and it works if that's what you want.

    Point is IT DOESN'T MATTER, don't worry if your arm is bent or not bent - that doesn't determine your forehand being good or not good. There are a thousand and one other things to you could worry about that WILL help you.

    Don't get stuck on this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
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  25. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Ya, after I made my last post I was debating whether or not it even still made sense to me and I thought to myself there's not much dirt left to dig deeper haha. All the questions just stem from the fact that I never knew I was doing that, but after I tweak my back swing it may not even matter.
     
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  26. TheLambsheadrep

    TheLambsheadrep Professional

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    Btw Anton, I saw some of you recent videos. Going for the Nadal swing, looks good. How's that 45ish degree straight arm drop feel compared to a more circular arm swing?
     
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  27. Cheetah

    Cheetah Hall of Fame

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    very nice. great strokes.
    now that's the way to use the wall. excellent work.
     
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  28. Calor1

    Calor1 New User

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    This. That's what I meant by not overthinking.

    By saying standing closer I don't mean that you have to hafvolley everything or that you should stand so close that you can't execute a normal forehand motion. But when the ball comes a little closer like alot of times in this video, move up to it instead of moving back a little (sometimes) and letting it bounce twice.
    All of this just to say that you could improve way more by moving better than by thinking about minor details of your FH motion.
     
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  29. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

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    Actually that's old too haha, maybe I should get a new vid up.

    In that phase I was trying to work on incorporating more spin and margin into my game. But I'm an aggressive driver at heart and full western game is just not for me.

    But specifically on the back swing, I'm using the shorter form like in that last video and not the longer version I used three years ago. I'm keeping my elbow down more and don't start elbow-high on the take back. It's a faster, simpler setup and gives better balance and control of racket path on the run.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2013
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