Poll: Playing competitively against the opposite sex

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by penpal, Mar 6, 2012.

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Can you handle playing a competitive match against a member of the opposite sex?

  1. I'm a woman and I'd enjoy playing against a man competitively

    9 vote(s)
    8.7%
  2. I'm a woman and I'd rather not play against a man competitively

    1 vote(s)
    1.0%
  3. I'm a man and I'd be comfortable losing to a woman

    73 vote(s)
    70.9%
  4. I'm a man and I'd detest losing to a woman

    20 vote(s)
    19.4%
  1. leroy_sunset

    leroy_sunset Rookie

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    A good female friend of mine was a decent junior in her day. I usually beat her with my kickserve and by breaking down her forehand (backhand is pretty flawless). She hits out, and is a leftie (I have lots of experience with lefties, their normal tricks generally don't work on me). It is super fun to play with her, and I actually don't mind losing at all when I do. Easily the most fun partner I get to hit with.

    Another female friend was a college player (D3), and now coaches a high school men's team, so she gets lots of court time. She routinely beats me by junkballing and constantly hitting to my backhand. It enrages me to no end. I think I hate losing to her because of her tactics. I'd like to think her gender plays no role, but it certainly can't help. She's no shot-maker, but she knows how to win.
     
    #51
  2. penpal

    penpal Rookie

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    Approx. 76%-24% in favor of a genderless rating system. I wonder if tennis players who participate on this forum are non-standard or if this result would extrapolate to a broader group of players.

    Does anyone know how/why the gender designations came about in the first place?
     
    #52
  3. penpal

    penpal Rookie

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    bumping as the topic has come up again recently in another post ... plus I'm still curious to see if anyone has info re: how the gender designations came to be originally.
     
    #53
  4. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    Are you nuts? Curious to see where you play? As stated before......there is no less than a .75 difference between the two genders. I cant even play a woman of the same rating.....because AT worst....Im yeilding 1 game.....and a highlight rell full of winners.. Not sure who you are playing to have that mind frame.....its a complete mis match
     
    #54
  5. AtomicForehand

    AtomicForehand Hall of Fame

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    No, I'm not nuts, thank you, and you seem to have exceedingly poor reading comprehension. But good that you got some pats on your own back in.
     
    #55
  6. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    No.....you just have a terrible idea......that could and would never work, for countless reasons.......


    A Genderless rating syystem is laughable..........makes no sense
     
    #56
  7. CDestroyer

    CDestroyer Professional

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    I would let her win especially if she flashed me. It would be hot.
     
    #57
  8. r2473

    r2473 Legend

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    Homer: What are you kids doing?
    Lisa, Bart: Practicing tennis
    Homer: That's tennis? Then what's that sport where the chicks whale on each other?
    Bart: Foxy Boxing?
    Homer: [disappointedly] Yes. That's what I wanted. Oh.
    [Homer cries]
     
    #58
  9. AtomicForehand

    AtomicForehand Hall of Fame

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    Right. Just as it makes no sense to measure women's heights in inches like we do men's...or their ages in years...in fact, why do we grade both male and female students with A's or B's, etc., holding them to the same standard? How can we possibly grade the repertoire of music students the same for both sexes? How ridiculous! It would never work, for countless reasons. (Except that it does work, of course.)

    Let's hear some of your "countless" reasons, then, o great thinker.
     
    #59
  10. Maui19

    Maui19 Hall of Fame

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    It is unkind to battle wits with an unarmed man. ;)
     
    #60
  11. OrangePower

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    Dude... don't be ignorant. In fact there already is such a system, and it works quite well. It's called Tencap. You get a number between 0 and 80. Doesn't matter whether you're male or female. A person rated 40 = another person rated 40, regardless of gender.
    http://my.tencaptennis.com/ratingscale.aspx
     
    #61
  12. dcdoorknob

    dcdoorknob Hall of Fame

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    I've been involved in a doubles ladder recently that is open to both genders. It doesn't actually go by any real rating system, but the effect of it is that you end up playing people at your same level regardless of gender. It's been great fun. As a guy, there's been no worrying about what the ladies can or can not handle or thinking about gender at all in the ladder, as the ladies I'm playing with can handle whatever I'm able to throw at them as well as any of the guys can, if the couldn't they would be lower on the ladder. Statistically speaking, there are more guys towards the top of the ladder, and more women on the lower side of things, but really no one seems to mind, and everyone gets good, fun, competitive tennis with other tennis players right around their level.

    All that to say that the whole thing has given me new perspective on how well an equal-across-genders rating system could work, and it could work quite well imo.
     
    #62
  13. MrCLEAN

    MrCLEAN Rookie

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    I hit w/ a girl on the TCU varsity team once. She could have owned me on pretty much any ball she wanted to for the most part. But it was a great experience. Also got smoked by some juniors down at Newks, don't remember how old, but one of them was 13.
     
    #63
  14. Mick

    Mick Legend

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    i think it's just so cool to know women who can play good/great tennis
     
    #64
  15. penpal

    penpal Rookie

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    In re-reading this thread two thoughts came to my mind:

    1. I wish I would have phrased the poll differently. It's not meant to be scientific of course, but I played a little too fast and loose with the wording :p

    2. I think the history of a parallel yet unequal rating system is so ingrained that some people have a difficult time comprehending the nature of the question being asked. My guess is many of those in this thread who consider it a crazy idea for men to play against women competitively aren't able to wrap their heads around the idea of a completely new and different rating system, and are stuck on the idea that "there's no way a 3.5 woman could compete against a 3.5 man."

    This is all fascinating to me. I've actually reached out via email to Alan Schwartz - one of the co-creators of the NTRP system - to see if the current gender separation was intended from the beginning, or just sort of developed. If I hear back from him I'll post here.
     
    #65
  16. zcarzach

    zcarzach Professional

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    This is the correct answer.
     
    #66
  17. Larrysümmers

    Larrysümmers Hall of Fame

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    i play with a girl who plays on her college team. i think for us rec players its a great tool playing against someone of the other gender. it has helped me because ive had to learn how to create my own power from all over on the court. its also helped her, i think more so than it helps me. she cant hit out right winners and she has gotten way better at moving me around and getting me deep in my bh corner and sneaking into the net.
     
    #67
  18. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    Your examples are weak and lethargic.

    Since we are cracking jokes......lets get the ladies vs guys in Hoops? Soccer? They try in golf.....but always come up terribly short........



    The sysytem in which you speak is obviously made to benefit the ladies......who I assume.....need to have a sense of entitlement or belonging......so....lets badger the normal system.....and tilt it to make a level playing field. Too me...its funny....weird that some take offense on others OPINIONS......

    There really isnt a whole lot of upside for a Male to continously play a Female......kind of a lose-lose situation.
     
    #68
  19. Avles

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    What are some of those countless reasons? Why shouldn't a rating simply measure tennis ability?
     
    #69
  20. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    I actually started to draft a serious response to this, but I was laughing too much.

    I do suspect you are hung up on teh NTRP system so much you can't get past it, but you might just be unaware of the standard of some female players.

    or do you really imagine a 4.5 male (for example) would be anything other than cannon fodder for a decent female 18s player?
     
    #70
  21. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    Not alot that I know......because at the end of the day......the 18s player.......is still.......a female. They are going to have a weaker serve, hot and cold volleys, and perhaps some stamina-confidence issues.

    Now if she is some off the chart prodigy......then sure....you would be correct.
     
    #71
  22. penpal

    penpal Rookie

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    Let's suppose for a moment, just for the sake of argument, that you are correct, and that there are essentially no women who can compete with a 4.5 male player.

    I don't agree with this, but let's just run with it.

    How about a 4.0 male, or a 3.5, or a 3.0? Are there women who could give men at those levels competitive matches? Or do you believe that no matter what the man's rating, even if he's brand new to tennis and doesn't really know what he's doing out there, merely being a man will give him enough of an advantage to defeat any woman in a tennis match?

    My guess is that 4.0 and some 4.5 women would be very competitively matched against most 3.5 men. Put them all into one level and you might see bigger draws in tournaments, more teams and players in league play, and everyone would have more players on their call list when they want to set up a "for fun" match on a random weeknight.
     
    #72
  23. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    I'm not for or against a consistent rating system, but you would have to change the way that mixed doubles is structured because you won't have very many 5.0 or 4.5 rated women playing adult leagues anymore. The top level of mixed would be siomething like 9.0 (instead of 10.0) with 5.0 men paired with 3.5 and 4.0 women, so the restriction on ratings differences between partners would have to be relaxed.
     
    #73
  24. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Ok, now I think Loose Cannon is just trolling us :)
     
    #74
  25. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    I can respect your opinion......


    I don't meant that ANY women......I essentially meant 'League' females......I did start the other like thread that listed 'Division 1' Women......and I honestly know that alot of those would compete/beat a nice % of 4.5 men. I do know some 4.5 men that I'd have trouble seeing get smacked around by a female....but who knows. Now.....I know the young teens that you see at Bolleteri or even Van Der meer(which I seen) ......those girls are obviously not being trained to compete in the USTA...so I wouldnt bother counting them. They are scary.

    But I Just have an issue with feeling the need to slant the Normal ratings just to give someone a more 'fair' shot. I hardly doubt alot of guys are going to feel genuinely blessed to have a slanted system....just to say they beat a female.....unless if maybe a 3.5 is playing a 5.0 female or something,,
     
    #75
  26. J_R_B

    J_R_B Hall of Fame

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    There are definitely D1 women that would smack around all 4.5 and most 5.0 mens league players. The local cash tournament every summer around here has been won the last 2 years by a local woman who plays for Tulane now. She won two years ago in the finals against Vasilisa Bardova, who was ranked around the WTA top 50 at one point. That final was one of the hardest hitting non-pro women's matches I've ever seen, and those two women were both playing at a level that was high 5.0 in men's.
     
    #76
  27. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    Why...????:confused:


    Because I don't....nor will I ever say the 'politically correct' things, like:


    Oh.....There is this chick from The University of Tim-buck-Two, that would beat me 0-0 in no more than 19 minutes, max. If there was such a freak of nature....I surely wouldnt tell a forum about it.

    I dont give unnecessary credit to anyone, male or female......and in alot of cases......dont even bother giving 'just do' credit......for what....really??? I dont partake in alot of these social 'lets me buddies and compliment each other' all practice sessions. I play for keeps.....If you arent in my circle already......I probably dont want to chat it up, show over the top class. Im in the business of hitting winners and refrain from hitting losers(unforced errors).......sometimes it doesnt pan out......so I got to go home, and hit the MF'n Drawing Board....
     
    #77
  28. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    Well, I think you are trolling us, because the alternative is worse :)

    The alternative is that you really don't understand what several people have patiently and painfully tried to explain to you:

    Yes, in general, men are stronger tennis players than women. Nobody here is denying that. If you take the median man tennis player against the median woman tennis player, the man wins.

    But there is a lot of variation amongst men players, and there is a lot of variation amongst women players. There are women, who are above average women players, who will beat the average male player. And there are really really good women, who will beat above average male players. Do you accept this?

    If you do, then the next step is to say, let's grade these men and women based on their absolute tennis playing ability. So maybe an average man is a 5 out of 10. Ok, then maybe an average woman is only a 3 out of 10. But you will have good women who are a 5 out of 10. And this good woman will be the equal of the average man. And so on.

    This is the analogy AtomicForehand was trying to give you, which either you completely failed to understand, or... you were trolling. On average, men are taller than women. Maybe the average man is 5' 10'', and the average woman is 5' 4''. But there are short men, and there are tall women. So, there are some women who are taller than short men, some tall women who are taller than the average man, and some *really* tall women that are even taller than a tall man. And guess what - we measure all of them using the same scale (feet and inches in the USA). And as is turns out, a woman who is 5' 8'' tall is, wait for it, *exactly* the same height as a man who is 5' 8'' tall. Imagine that!
     
    #78
  29. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    forget it Orange, either he is trolling or he is an idiot, either way there is no point in engaging...

    For the record, I play against a 17 yr old female quite regularly with mixed success. She has a college offer to consider but no illusions about ever joining the WTA, I am a solid ITN 3/4 (NTRP 5.5/5.0) with wins this year in open tournaments.

    Sorry boys, but this young lady would simply obliterate any 4.5s on a singles court without half trying, and she isn't even a top 50 player for her age group at a national level...
     
    #79
  30. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    #80
  31. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    #81
  32. Timbo's hopeless slice

    Timbo's hopeless slice Hall of Fame

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    women play in ITN tournaments in the rest of the world all the time, why are you so threatened by the concept?

    You realise that nobody else gives a fig for NTRP anyway?

    bah, must be a troll..
     
    #82
  33. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    not threatened.....just not a fan.


    I can say, its not a very powerful movement
     
    #83
  34. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    And why in gawds name would I care what is done 'in the rest of the world'.......Im talking about local, USTA leagues that I play.....dont care about somewhere else......do I make myself crystal clear, young fella?
     
    #84
  35. Brian11785

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    An episode of Mad Men called; it wants its misogyny back.

    You just don't seem to get that, if a male and female are of the same skill level, wouldn't it make more sense for them to be have the same ranking. That is more definitive than the current system, where 3.5, 4.0, 4.5 mean different things to different people. Wishy-washy. Even if men and women don't play one another, I'd be in favor of a single, gender-blind rating system.
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2012
    #85
  36. J_R_B

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    There are advantages and disadvantages to each. It depends on the goal of the system and whether it is meant to measure the actual level of a player or relative level. If the goal is to measure the actual level (so that you have a mechanism to allow men to compete with women), then you need to standardize it so that a 4.0 male is the same level as a 4.0 female. However, the goal may be to measure the relative levels, in other words, to set the top 10% of league players to 5.0, the next 20% to 4.5, etc, or something like that so that parallel league structures can be set up for men and women. if you standardize the ratings on the current men's scale, then there definitely won't be a 5.0 women's league, it will be a real stretch to find enough women for a 4.5 league, and most women will be bunched at 3.0 with 3.5 and 4.0 as the upper level leagues (equivalent of men's 4.5 and 5.0). That may make it really difficult to administer leagues with 2/3 or more of the players at a single rating level.

    Anyway, again, I'm not for or against either system. You just have to recognize that there are advantages and disadvantages to each.
     
    #86
  37. Brian11785

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    I see your point, but your argument seems to assume that 3.0 (or its equivalent in some hypothetical system) is the lowest skill level. That doesn't necessarily have to be the case. If it isn't, then your fear is a non-issue.
     
    #87
  38. Mauvaise

    Mauvaise Rookie

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    Wow.

    Just wow. :roll:
     
    #88
  39. J_R_B

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    Yeah, I suppose you could change the scale, but as it stands now, 2.5 is more or less the "beginners" level where there isn't really much of a difference between men and women anyway since everyone is just starting to hit balls and play points.
     
    #89
  40. floridatennisdude

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    Got it, you are in your little bubble and don't want to know about anything else happening elsewhere that might possibly be better than what is inside you bubble. That is why you got on a worldwide message board to discuss your issues inside your bubble. Got it.
     
    #90
  41. Alchemy-Z

    Alchemy-Z Professional

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    My best hitting partner is a woman..she teaches with my wife and played in college. I've got more tips learned more about playing tennis and improved a lot since playing her.

    She won't play USTA tho said she tried but it was to much drama...so she just plays on her own time for fun.
     
    #91
  42. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    Well Said!!!!:cool:
     
    #92
  43. Loose Cannon

    Loose Cannon Rookie

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    Hey.....thats not very nice



    What I meant was......I don't really care too much about rules and systems that do not or will not affect me.........Iam following the League and its system that I play in.......
     
    #93
  44. Loose Cannon

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    3.0 = Cool rating:)
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2012
    #94
  45. floridatennisdude

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    1 out of every 5 people that have voted agree with you. Congrats on spearheading the argument for the minority. And enjoy your bubble.
     
    #95
  46. OrangePower

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    I apologize for using big words that confused you. But I got your point:

    You big man bigger than any woman. And your club big. You hit woman on head with club and drag to cave.

    Well, ok then.
     
    #96
  47. maggmaster

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    I would vastly prefer that leauges were divided by level not gender or age. I can understand seniors and age groups but if a women can play competetivelu with me, why would I not want to play her?
     
    #97

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