posters who you want to see hit.

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Larrysümmers, Dec 20, 2010.

  1. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Sennoc - timing of the foot placement on the volly depends on the height of contact. Low volley and the foot does plant just before the contact (step before the hit). Mid-high volley and the contact takes place during the step (step during the hit) and for high volleys the contact comes first (contact before the step).

    From what I saw of TonLars forehand volleys in that vid, they were dropping below net height so his footwork was spot on technically.

    If you want to be technically perfect then you should know and incorporate this into your own volleys.

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  2. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Hey Ash that is actually good to know. I think I need to check myself how I do it. Is this the accepted methods most pro coaches recommend for footwork on volleys?

     
  3. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    And Sennoc, I really would like an explanation of your forehand mechanics. I do seek tennis technique knowledge so I would appreciate it if you would explain the way you arrived at your forehand stroke. And what you think the strengths and weaknesses of it are.
     
  4. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @arche3

    I'm not sure exactly if that's how most pro coaches teach it! Certainly those that have been RPT trained do! I picked up on it when doing some work with Luis Mediero and Emilio a few years back. In terms of generating power on volleys it's really important to get these combinations right as they stop you having to/trying to do too much with the arm and allow you to control the body movement for maximum effect.

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  5. Hewex

    Hewex Semi-Pro

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    Thanks Ash,

    I just learned a lot about volleys from that post.
     
  6. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Thanks Ash. I needed this little tip as I really want to improve my volleys. I can place it but there is something wrong. Again this helps and actually makes sense visually in my mind.

     
  7. sennoc

    sennoc Guest

    I analyzed almost every replay of Federer's volleys during last 5 years. Thousands of shots. I saw just a few examples when his foot landed on the ground at contact. He lost all these volleys. He hits in the air. Check other good volleyers. Henman. Sampras. Check them frame by frame.

    Surprise!
     
  8. li0scc0

    li0scc0 Hall of Fame

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    Wow, this is boring, can we get back to Jolly and Drak?
     
  9. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Is it step and hit but the hit is a split second before impact on the videos of federer you studied? how far up in the air was the lead foot? Just the lead foot is airborn right?
     
  10. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Look again and study the height of the contact points of those volleys. Believe me, Luis and Emilio have studied thousands of Pro volleys (and they've actually taught Pro players too). I have studied and taught also, you need to put what you think you see in conxtext of the situation. For mid-high volleys the lead foot should be in the air a little - there's no surprise there, that's what I said (hit during the step). Look for low volleys and you'll also see what I stated and the same for high volleys. Players who hit mid-high volleys and have completed their step before the hit have a higher chance of arming tha ball and/or missing the volley. Maybe this is what you saw in the video's you have watched.

    Surprise, no?

    If you want to volley technically perfectly (which is your goal apparently) then you'll heed the advice of 2 of the worlds greatest coaches (and me) and add it into your game. Or you could not, up to you!

    Arche3 and Hewex - no worries, glad to help.

    Regards

    Ash
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  11. sennoc

    sennoc Guest

    It's too complicated to write about all aspects here, in a foreign language and under pressure of time. Give me some months.

    In a very unusual way. I wanted to find real physical and biomechanical principles of tennis. I read all scientific tennis literature and in my opinion explanations were not good. I started my own work.

    First, I built a theoretical, physical model. Then I tried to adapt it and check it on the court. Then I compared the results with the technique of pro players (my library has more than 120 DVDs with many replays of pro strokes). They I built next model and so on. This is not the end of the story, but I can't say more at the moment.

    As a result, there are no teaching artifacts in my strokes. That's why they look a bit different than those you see at pro strokes.
     
  12. sennoc

    sennoc Guest

    I appreciate your comment, but these guys were wrong. I guess their methodology was wrong. They probably made statistical analysis of volleyers - good and bad in the same population. Why don't you want to check my words? That's so easy, Federer or Henman were quite popular players ;), their videos are available everywhere...
     
  13. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    you should teach it to a young player and see if it helps or not. I think at our age it will be of limited benefit as we are too slow to benefit from new techniques. But if a new way of tennis mechanics can be taught to someone young and growing it can be a test of new theories.

    But I would refrain from calling the kid an idiot if he does not do it right the first few times..... :)

    I agree there are very few studies of tennis based on biomechanics probably because everyone hits differently. And thinks differently.

    I do think you have something to contribute here if you can just stop with the name calling of others who challenge your ideas. The best way to defend your theories is to show us what they are so we can apply them to our game and see if that works. I am at least as athletic as you so I can apply whatever works for you. I am looking forward to your thoughts on the forehand mechanics you've researched.

     
  14. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Like I said, take it or leave it. It's up to you.

    I have, I stand by my statement. Have you ever tried to hit a low volley, under control whilst having your front (lead) foot in the air? That's a video I'd love to see.

    I hope you turn out to be as visionary as you think you are Sennoc! The Sennoc Academy will be turning out an army of world beating players, except that winning won't be their goal.

    I too cannot wait to hear the principals behind your forehand and how you arrived at the theory that a straight takeback (whch increases inertia) is better biomechanically than a takeback incporporating angular momentum (elbow lead or loop style).

    Cheers

    Ash
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  15. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    thanks for the good explanation Ash.... I think it has to do with the fact that the volley is a high to low stroke, and therefore high volleys happen relatively early in the motion, where the front foot has not planted yet, while low volleys happen relatively late in the motion (contact point more forward), and quite often the foot has planted.

    [wanted to throw another punch at sennoc here, but at this point it almost feel like not worth the effort now, because the guy is not even on the level playing field.... his first round losses are proof that all his 'knowledge' is hog wash lol..... oops, I still threw the punch]
     
  16. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Luis Mediero is wrong? Ouch
     
  17. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    No worries Dozu. Hope it helps.

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  18. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    Hunter, come to the rescue! the gang up attack has resumed!
     
  19. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @ Balla

    Apparently so, the most inspirational coach I have ever worked with (and I've been lucky enough to work with a few world class coaches in my time) knows nothing about tennis, at least according to an ammature tennis player.

    Funny old world innit!!!

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  20. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Same here Ash. Macci, Saviano, Bangoura, Sanchez-Vicario......I have also been lucky to work with some greats.

    They have landed top D-1 scholarships for hundreds, made others into money making professionals.

    But apparently they, and I, have no clue about tennis. Go figure.
     
  21. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    it is rather funny.

    Remember the thread I made about Spanish Training Methods, where I posted exerts from Luis Mediero's DVD (which got later taken down from Youtube :p ) you commented in the thread a few times, anyways that DVD alone opened my eyes and still gives me goosebumps everytime I watch it cause he's so right and its so simple, explaining the 4 key elements to train (rhythm, movement, technique, recover). It fit in perfectly with my own philosophies. The man is an inspiration and you can see and hear in his voice the passion he has towards the sport. Speaking on DVD's, do you have or know of any others I can buy from RPT or of Luis? Would really love to get my hands on more stuff. I'm coaching in Europe now, so shipping should be easier.
     
  22. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    @Balla

    Yeah, I'm currently wainting on the Spanish office to send me over all the new DVD's (they're all in spanish though, so I've got some translating to do!). When they get here i'll let you know!

    Where you coaching now?

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  23. HunterST

    HunterST Hall of Fame

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    So do you think those 4 areas are improved from playing and hitting often, or are specific drills/exercises targeted at each element needed? Obviously movement would require outside fitness work, but what about the other three?
     
  24. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    Balla, and ASH. I have seen some of the links you posted in the past about the spanish method. hand feeding, etc... If you guys do find out where those dvd's can be purchased please let the rest of us know. I am very interested in those methods.

     
  25. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    see, how civil we all are when the culprit is not around?
     
  26. theZig

    theZig Rookie

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    At the end of the day regardless of what is going on, sennoc just said he has more knowledge, at least about volleys, than professional coaches.. and by professional I mean actually produced pros. I'm actually really surprised. God, just imagine if he were a cook and were on Kitchen Nightmares.. the laughs the world could have had.

    as for Sennoc; the real issue is that you aren't respecting people. You may feel as though "why should I? I'm the one being attacked", but that's precisely why you need to be the one respectful and make THEM look like nothing more than trolls/children. If a child were to kick you in the leg in public, would you start screaming at them? Of course not, you'd perhaps scold and sternly tell them not to do that, but you'd never hit them back or scream. Why? Because you are an adult and know better than them. You've said you know better than the rest, and certainly treat them like children, yet you get involved in the same actions (such as kicking) as the "children" do.

    Now, as for your arrogance, it really is arrogance. To say anything at all that you've done is a "fact" based on your own "research", regardless of what you have backing it up, is arrogance. If I had said elephants could fly and gave you all sorts of reasons to back my claim, and called anyone who disagreed and idiot because of my "Reasons", I'd look nothing than a raving fool. If I then went on to say that "I will not discuss anymore because you don't know anything about elephants", then I'd look like an ass. If I then continued on to say "I know more about elephants than a man who's studied elephants his entire adult life, so I don't even need to talk about him either," then I am nothing more than an arrogant d-bag.

    I'm NOT trying to say you're wrong here, in fact I agree with a lot of things you've said. I'm trying to say, keep an open mind, will you? You say your volley is superior to Nadal's because of one shot, in one situation, in one aspect. That makes your shot BETTER? Are you honestly claiming you've NEVER made a mistake in your life? Are you saying you've NEVER done what he's done? Look, if we're talking about doing one particular thing in one particular situation, then I'm sure everyone could claim that they're better than a certain pro at SOMETHING (hell, there are times when Federer can't cope with shots on his backhand, no?), but the fact of the matter is, it doesn't matter. The VALUE of a shot is not in its biomechanics, it's the entire package. Take a look at the entire package, not just one aspect (afterall you yourself admitted the reason Nadal was able to hit that "technically incorrect" BH volley was due to his amazing feel). It's like if you were to compare gifts, and all you looked at was the wrapping paper and claim that's better. Or the box size, or how you handed it to them, or your face when you watched them open it. You could have a giant box with fantastic paper and all, but have an empty box of cigarettes in it. On the other hand, you could have a tiny little box, with a ring. Which would you have? Biomechanics are naught but a TOOL to hit a better SHOT in order to produce a POINT. I'm not even going to bother saying if your biomechanics are better or NOT, but what I WILL say is EVEN IF THEY WERE, IT DOESN'T MEAN JACK SHI.T. I won't even get into your goddamned notion of "real tennis", probably the most arrogant of all (completely and utterly disrespectful).

    Imagine if someone had said to you "I am a better player than you because my ball bouncing before the serve is better than yours," what would you say? Probably the Polish equivalent of "WTF?" Your example is not so extreme, but the point I am making is the part-to-a-whole scenario. Since you're into science, what you've essentially said is: A (aspect of your volley technique) > B (aspect of Nadal's volleying technique) therefore (A + X) > (B + Y). You CANNOT make that statement without identifying X and Y (the REST of the stuff). YOU CANNOT.

    Look, man, I'm not trying to tear you down. I honestly think you have a wealth of knowledge available, like alot of others. I just wish you would use it for something more productive on these boards. I know you've been attacked here, but you have to understand why. Nobody was originally out to get you, and you could have dealt with the situation much better. I just hope going forward that we can have more civil talks on the forum and actually keep it oriented to what this thread was about. Good day and best of luck with your tennis.

    Zig
     
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2011
  27. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Those 4 areas are targeted, you can make your own plan as a coach as to how you want to go about teaching them. If you go on the website us pro tennis shop dot com and click on DVD Library and Player Development you can buy the video I was talking about, its called Spanish Model For Developing Players. Its an on court seminar Luis Mediero did back in 2003 but still very well valid today though I'm also looking for some update work from RPT as well.

    Ash_Smith, if you could send me an email whenever you get those DVD's finished or have some older ones I can buy that would be great. martin.oncourt at gmail.com I'd really appreciate it.
    I'm in Prague, I just got here last week. I was born here in Czech Rep. originally but we left (escaped) back in '87 and came to Canada in '88. 23 years have been there and grew up there, kinda of a change for me but I love it here. I can speak the language no problem, lots of foreigners here as well and people looking for lessons. Gonna be a grind as I will be doing it as my own business for a while but will see how it goes. Going to enjoy the challenge :) People like the different coaching approach here as I try to use as much as I learned during my course at A S-C Barcelona with my own way as well. 90% of the coaches teach whats being taught by the national tennis association here so I'm trying to be different and separate myself from the rest, offer an alternative. Its good stuff as well what they coach here, there are some great coaches but I find theres a large gap right in the middle which I hope to fill.
     
  28. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    The answer is both! Each element needs to have the associated technique ingrained (myelinated) by use of specific drills and practices, which in turn need to be practiced and 'played' to better understand their use on court.

    There is a lot of double rhythm movement and feeding used to train the movement related elements and a lot of technical repetition to train the actual shot technique. This constant repetition of racquet head technique builds "muscle memory" (myelination) and therefore each repetion must be technically correct so a great deal of effort and focus/concentration is required.

    That's why Spanish tennis is generally associated with repetition, repetition, repetition! They figured out "muscle memory" long ago!

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  29. sennoc

    sennoc Guest

    I leave it, it's too complicated :)

    I have never said that every volley is hit in the air. We were talking about volleys in motion. Then I said that the main rule is stable, fluid motion of COM and that if you run you achieve this goal by hitting in the air. But if can't do that, my rule is still valid: you have to do everything to make your COM steady. That's why your foot should land on the ground before contact. Before. Never AT the contact - this is a fundamental error and I can scientifically prove it. Theoretically and by analysis of strokes of the best players.

    Straight takeback doesn't increase inertia. Inertia is always the same, the mass doesn't change during the stroke. You do not understand physics, sorry.

    I don't want to talk more about my forehands now. In the future - why not.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 8, 2011
  30. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Balla, no worries.

    I've never been to Prague but my parents went earlier in they year and keep telling us we should go as it was amazing! It's been added to our shortlist of cities to visit!!!

    Good luck with your new venture there.

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  31. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Cheers

    Ash
     
  32. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Like Ash just explained, a straight take back is inferior to a high take back in every way....physics and results.

    Over the past 20 years straight take backs have battled high take backs at all levels of tennis. And over 20 years, the survival of the fittest has led to almost all top level take backs being high.

    sennoc....physics...evolution....results.....all point to high take backs.
     
  33. Thud and blunder

    Thud and blunder Semi-Pro

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    I trade the financial markets for a living. I see guys like Sennoc all the time; they have a PhD in theoretical physics or whatnot and now they're going to use their megabrain to become money machines....these guys all blow up, mainly through arrogance, and then blame the market....'black swan', 'thousand year flood', 'twenty sigma moves', ie 'my model was right, the real world was wrong'....which seems to be where Sennoc is at.

    'that's all very well in practice, but will it work in theory' :)
     
  34. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Yes. Sennoc beats himself regularly.
     
  35. sennoc

    sennoc Guest

    I'm really sure that you will have interesting discussions next year.
     
  36. precision2b

    precision2b Semi-Pro

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    his opponents played with the same conditions: bad lighting, bad balls, bad humidity, bad court surface… I guess there stroke technics were better…
     
  37. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    I for 1, am no longer interested..... aint worth it to waste time with a 3.0 no more.

    next year you will be 3.5, you still suck.
     
  38. arche3

    arche3 Banned

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    I just want to know what happens next year now. lol. I am impatient.
     
  39. TensProfes

    TensProfes Banned

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    [​IMG]
     
  40. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    What's sad is that all this incredible knowledge of the game and Sennoc has never won any money playing it or gotten through a first round, hence having to wallow in his amateur status even with his superior technique and graceful footwork.
     
  41. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

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    Given the fact that he knows more than all the top coaches in the world including the president of RPT Europe, the owner of one of the most successful academies in the world, former pro's, top teaching professionals and so on. I expect someone of that stature would not be wasting his time arguing his claims and knowledge on an internet forum. Thats like Stephen Hawkins arguing on an online forum, weird to think about isn't it.
     
  42. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    are Jake Speed and Sennoc the same person?
     
  43. dozu

    dozu Banned

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    Ash you maybe a good coach, but you are no good in reading posting styles, and posters' psychie behind the posting styles lol.

    No, Jake Speed is not Sennoc.
     
  44. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Oh, I don't know about that, they're both antagonistic and egotistical!!! Imagine the fun they could have if they ever got together!!!

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  45. mtommer

    mtommer Hall of Fame

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    Hey, thanks for posting that name. I couldn't remember exactly the name of a couple of guys from a group who complemented my, uhhh, wall hitting skills (honest to God's truth) at the Nats last August. Your post struck a chord so I Googled and it was Sanchez-Casal. I didn't realize they are pretty big coaches. Heck, I thought they were coaches from some small college. Whoops!
     
  46. TennisCoachFLA

    TennisCoachFLA Banned

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    Cool. They have some amazing coaches in their organization.
     
  47. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, with guys like Emilio, Sergio, Dani Sorribas, Joan Balcells, Angel Jimenez, German Puentes and the godfather Pato Alvarez around they have a pretty formidable team!

    Cheers

    Ash
     
  48. Legend of Borg

    Legend of Borg Legend

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    Talk about derailing a thread.

    Where did it all go wrong?
     
  49. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    What's interesting about them. Drak is God, he is infalliable and Jolly is a 2.0 hack hiding in 5.0 league.

    Maybe Senoc is a love child between Drak and Topaz? The unswerving belief in right ness and righteousness must come from the same source right?
     
  50. dennis10is

    dennis10is Banned

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    Well, that is because he's kind hearted, doesn't want to rob Federer of his diaper money.

    Also, too bad that he doesn't share his wisdom by becoming a master level teacher and improving all of our game, instead he tells us how stupid we are.

    That sadder thing, is that he continues to be a science journalist when with his grasp of physics, he could have been a Nobel laureate in physics. Imagine if Sennoc had dedicated his life to matter transmutation, he could have converted the radioactive water from the Daichi Nuclear Power Plants into Chicken Terriyahki or Green Thai Tofu dessert with coconut milk or better still, edible, high in fiber and antioxidants panties.
     

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