Practice To Win Against Pushers

kiteboard

Banned
Practice to win against pushers. Relax and look into your upper body so that you can stay relaxed during matches without thinking about it, as they will try to jam your internal rhythm with short slices or moon balls or slower balls right down the middle, short and easy to lay up for hitting, or weak serves that they then gloat over your misses.

Drill a lot with lots of cross court shots off both sides..

Do a lot of serving and returning: deciding where to hit each shot before it's ever hit.

Play inside the baseline which forces them to hit deeper and takes away time from them as they quickly realize you are putting your thumb on their forehead two feet inside the baseline, and now instead of being a weapon, all those short slices are easier for you to reach and hit well off of.

Realize what they are doing is designed to jam up your game: so practice against slower balls, slices, and lots of lobs when you come in to attack.

Come into the net dtl against their back hands and be ready for the ever present lobs.

Take a lot of overhead practice, as you will be facing lots of them.

Don't fall into their grinding consistency game plan, as they are better than most at just not making any mistakes while you beat yourself.

Take it to them with some harder hit shots.

Give them some of their own jamming medicine: lots of slices/moon balls, short and deep shots such as drops off drops (they will drop off their bh all day off a cc rally), and then mix in a flat shot (which they don't ever hit due to its risky nature).

Practice these with internal attention: look at your upper body and its energy flow and its speed of coil. Keep your energy high on slower shots, and move/coil fast no matter what the ht./depth of their weak crappy shots, as they are counting the most on your ues on those jamming shots.

Practice your own serve so it's very reliable at least to their bh, which they will slice predictably.
Be fit, as they are often insanely fit due to their defensive game plan demands a lot of running while you punch your self out.

Punch them out instead, but your practices have to structure around preparing the above.

If you come in with a weak shot, they will suddenly be the ones to be hitting winners and gloating. Come in only with a good shot dtl to their bh. Then watch the lob or the short slice to your ankles, or they will often pop up the pass and gloat as you miss an easy volley off the slow sitting pass because you jammed up, didn't move your feet, didn't eat the volley, didn't go after it with power and speed in your feet. Stomp on the volleys and put the first one back dtl, unless the cc is 30% more open. (15% less distance for them to pass dtl and 15% more distance for you to cover dtl adds up to 30% more chance a dtl pass off cc volley will beat you.) You also have to learn how to back up if a good slice is hit to your ankles, and not just keep going into it. Stop, back up, and hit a ground stroke off those good slices, as their only weapon now is a liability, a short ball you are attacking off ground. You have to attack the net to really beat them up. They will often start serving volleying just to keep you away from net and change a losing game. Show them what a great serve return looks like: a rifling topspin pass, as none of their serves will have any pace, only some spin, so keep your hands/ arms higher on returns and anticipate a higher strike zone and hit down on the easy spin serves.

Remember that they are counting on your body work slowing down on their slow shots off passes and shots that lay up dtm. Keep in mind that your body and feet have one speed alone to defend: a fast coil and a faster uncoil. This is the single biggest factor for your practice sessions. Pick pushers to practice against and work religiously on that one internal rhythm: speed kills pushers.

Use psych on them as you can be sure they will be using it on you. Stay even keeled after even the easiest misses, and show them you have no concern and will win anyway. Show them who is boss and feel it inside. You are going to jam them better due to your flat shot ability, slice, moon ball kickers than they can jam you with their two forked attack: short slow slices, and high slow moons.

See my thread on psyches as you are going to encounter lots of them. Pushers win at every level due to their abilities to jam you: with defensive shots, high percentage game, speed of foot, insane consistency, and be the better jammer.

Don't fall into the mental trap of thinking, "This guy sucks. He can't hit a good shot.", and then, when you go down in score, get mad at yourself for missing. Realize going in his whole one plan is to place you in that frame of mind: upset, frustrated, jammed up internally. That is why practice is so important for keeping your relaxed state internally so that you can attack with fast feet/coil/uncoil no matter what the slow shot demands. Mix in all those shots they use, with your own normal shot plan of going for it.

Practice jamming sequences: first a moon ball to their fh, then a slice to the bh, then a flat shot dtl. Short slice, deep moon kicker, and have that set in your mind before the point starts. Very often they don't have good volleys or overheads or approach shots at all, so they relie on answering drops with drops so be ready to kick it.

HI I'M Ray also saw the need to go to the sw grips. He made the change and improved. That is what the game is about, not the score card, and the pushers never improve. They only see the score card as the valid measure of how good they are. Be the one that improves his game, his frame, his string, and keep score this way: "Did I improve during that match?" "Was I relaxed in my upper body?" "Did I keep my feet moving fast and coil fast, uncoil fast?" And let that be the measure of self loathing. If you did not, then feel like a loser. The score is only relevant to improvement and the proof thereof. Sampras lost 19 times in a row when he changed to a one hander. I have never lost 19 times in a row, and if I did, I might have quit or felt bad about the game as worthlessly difficult. Yes the push game is difficult to face, as you are really only facing your own bodies tendecy to slow down on slow incoming threats. Slow threat+slow body=ue. REalize that ahead of time and decide to train for it, and you will learn to destroy them with their own strategies: jam their bodies and minds better than you jam your own.

See also thread on defending your contact point.
 
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arche3

Banned
I just played a counter puncher/pusher... I'm 45 he is 25. Ex Pro soccer player. Decent enough tennis player.

I lost because I had to retire in the 2nd set. After barely winning the first. Cramps in both legs....

I can't train back youth....
 

kiteboard

Banned
No, but you could have had this drink: red clover, sage, nettles, sea salt, which would have prevented cramping and improved your stamina. Nothing works on cramps better other than quinine, without those awful side affects such as death, blurred vision, ringing ears, immune system attack. No one cramps more than me, and this works.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
While everything Kiteboard says is true, there is just no way I will ever beat a good 4.5 pusher who's ON his game.
I"m 63, sprained left ankle, twisted left knee, slow as a sloth. Just ain't gonna happen, even if my backhand can hit really strong topspin shots, which it really can't.
 

mikeler

Moderator
Cliff notes for Kiteboard's first post:

1) Come to net often
2) Hit overheads often to win points
 

Fuji

Legend
No, but you could have had this drink: red clover, sage, nettles, sea salt, which would have prevented cramping and improved your stamina. Nothing works on cramps better other than quinine, without those awful side affects such as death, blurred vision, ringing ears, immune system attack. No one cramps more than me, and this works.

This sounds absolutely terrible. I have to try it! Do you blend it all up?

-Fuji
 

arche3

Banned
No, but you could have had this drink: red clover, sage, nettles, sea salt, which would have prevented cramping and improved your stamina. Nothing works on cramps better other than quinine, without those awful side affects such as death, blurred vision, ringing ears, immune system attack. No one cramps more than me, and this works.

I was drinking power aid. This was the worst I have ever cramped. Both legs. Quads and calves. It was bad. I'll have to try your drink.... sounds awful though.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
The key is execution and shot tolerance. If you execute your shots and your gameplan, you'll play your best against anyone. The problem that pushers pose for many players is that they force them to play beyond their "shot tolerance." Many players get very anxious when a rally lasts for more than 3-4 shots, especially against pushers, and the feel pressure to end the point quickly before THEY make the unforced error. That's what kills you against a pusher. Pushers don't reward you with many UE's. You have to be willing to hit as many balls as needed (ie: as if it were a cross court drill), and wait for a high percentage opportunity to attack, and not try to end the point from a low percentage position.

PS: That's why cross court drills are so important. After serve and return practice, cross court drills give up the biggest bang for your practice time buck.
 
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bhupaes

Professional
^^^ I agree with your point about execution and shot tolerance - that is of fundamental importance. But because a pusher's shot is not particularly challenging, I would tend to hit to the open court rather than CC, the goal being to (a) get the pusher out of position so as to be able to hit an easy winner (volleys included), and (b) just run the guy to exhaustion. I figure being predictable will just make it easier for the pusher to do his thing.
 

kiteboard

Banned
The key is execution and shot tolerance. If you execute your shots and your gameplan, you'll play your best against anyone. The problem that pushers pose for many players is that they force them to play beyond their "shot tolerance." Many players get very anxious when a rally lasts for more than 3-4 shots, especially against pushers, and the feel pressure to end the point quickly before THEY make the unforced error. That's what kills you against a pusher. Pushers don't reward you with many UE's. You have to be willing to hit as many balls as needed (ie: as if it were a cross court drill), and wait for a high percentage opportunity to attack, and not try to end the point from a low percentage position.

PS: That's why cross court drills are so important. After serve and return practice, cross court drills give up the biggest bang for your practice time buck.
Listen to this guy.
 

kiteboard

Banned
This sounds absolutely terrible. I have to try it! Do you blend it all up?

-Fuji

NO. You boil water in a pot, and put the ingredients in there, and let it sit for an hour, and then strain it into your thermos, and drink it before, during and after the match, or on a hot day where you know you will need help with cramps anyway, and it will stop all cramps in their tracks from ever happening. Works better than: cramp bark, quinine, salt alone, gatorade, sugar drinks, any fruit like bananas, peaches, grapes, nuts, or any blood thinners like aspirin, etc., or pain killers like muscle relaxants: valium, etc.
 
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kiteboard

Banned
While everything Kiteboard says is true, there is just no way I will ever beat a good 4.5 pusher who's ON his game.
I"m 63, sprained left ankle, twisted left knee, slow as a sloth. Just ain't gonna happen, even if my backhand can hit really strong topspin shots, which it really can't.

Probably not. But if you follow these, you will have the best chance to do so. The pusher is too fit and fast for you at this point, so your strategy of hitting forcing shots will have to be enough to win a few points at best. Sakae will eat you up and he pushes at a 5.0 level, but I beat him up, and I am 56, and 205lbs. HIs big serve and forehand are readable to me, and he said, "You always know where I am going to hit the passing shot." I watch his frame first, and just move to the alley he's going to be aiming for at net. I certainly would not win a grinding game with him, nor if he didn't miss 70% of those big bomber serves of his.
 

gindyo

Semi-Pro
Just the other day I had the displeasure to loose to a pusher. He got me to a point where I wanted to quit tennis after that match :) .
The problem is that I never practice against players, who play like that, and that was my BIG mistake. I know all the theorys there are, about playing a pusher, but when you can't execute, those theorys are as good as s**t. So if you want to beat a pusher you make sure you practice against pushers. That is all I can add to this topic.
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Just the other day I had the displeasure to loose to a pusher. He got me to a point where I wanted to quit tennis after that match :) .
The problem is that I never practice against players, who play like that, and that was my BIG mistake. I know all the theorys there are, about playing a pusher, but when you can't execute, those theorys are as good as s**t. So if you want to beat a pusher you make sure you practice against pushers. That is all I can add to this topic.

CROSS COURT DRILLS! You don't necessarily have to practice against pushers. You have to be able to keep the ball in play, cross court, indefinitely, until you draw a short ball you can attack.
 

sundaypunch

Hall of Fame
CROSS COURT DRILLS! You don't necessarily have to practice against pushers. You have to be able to keep the ball in play, cross court, indefinitely, until you draw a short ball you can attack.

Exactly, but remember, many people can't attack a shortball. That's why we have so many "I lost to a pusher" threads here.
 
One key point that most people miss when playing pushers: practice fitness, too. You'd be surprised how well it affects your overall tennis (in a good way).
 

kiteboard

Banned
Some good stuff from limpinhitter and others. Pushers depend on jamming us/emotionally/physically with the slow ball slice routine. No mistake cowardly play and running defense unfortunately wins against all levels, due to their simple consistent easy to follow game plan: run a lot and just slice the ball back over and over with no risk, and let the big hitters beat themselves. I find when I focus on quick twitch uncoil/coil I naturally attack better. The flex bar is helping me to increase quick twitch speed, and I use it nightly, twisting it into a U turn and going side to side very fast, shoulder to shoulder. It's the counter twitch speed I have trouble with, such as when attacking net, and a pass gets on fast, and I don't react counter twitch fast enough to make the shot well enough or at all.
 

gindyo

Semi-Pro
CROSS COURT DRILLS! You don't necessarily have to practice against pushers. You have to be able to keep the ball in play, cross court, indefinitely, until you draw a short ball you can attack.
For me it wasn't the direction that bothered me. The problem was that I had to consistantly hit the ball at around shoulder level and that is a shot which I almost never practice.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
I just played a counter puncher/pusher... I'm 45 he is 25. Ex Pro soccer player. Decent enough tennis player.

I lost because I had to retire in the 2nd set. After barely winning the first. Cramps in both legs....

I can't train back youth....

No but you can get in better shape.
 

kiteboard

Banned
Cramping has nothing to do with being in shape. They don't even really know why they occur, only that they occur more often when it's hot, and when you have nerves, and when you have a tough match that saturates the blood stream with lactic acid. Salt helps to combat remove them, as does the drink/tea I mentioned. Nadal cramps, and so did Chang. Were they ever out of shape? No. When you are in a match, anything you eat instantly goes into the area it's needed the most, such as cramping muscles. Quinine also works, but has bad side effects for many.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
kiteboard,

I don't know, but it appears that the better shape you're in, the less chance for cramping to occur. Think about it, if you were a 5 set strong player, would you get cramping playing 1 set against a 70 years old? That's the kind of in-shape feeling you feel and it's impossible for cramping to happen.

This logic completely works for me. When i first started tennis, I used to feel a slight cramping on court, but it sometimes got alot worse in the middle of night, like my muscles couldn't recover. Now I'm probably 3x stronger, routinely play in the heat, but dont' feel a single cramping pain, even when I feel drained.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
Is it "better shape, less cramping, period".... OR...
The more competitive you are, the more likely you can cramp because you're trying so darn hard.
You can be competitive and out of shape, for sure a chance to cramp.
You can be competitive and IN great shape, but playing someone you really really want to beat, good chance for cramp.
Or, like me, you can be in somewhat decent shape, never cramp, because when the chips are down, I don't really care who wins the point, I enjoy the moment! :):)
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
LeeD,

Why are you always trying to confuse everything?

It's trying harder than your fitness allows that is what I'm suggesting. That's the bottom line.

You can be competitive and still be lazy as hell. You just get upset, curse and break rackets, not necessarily go to/beyond your body's limits.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You just described me exactly! I get upset, curse, haven't broken a racket ever, but go on to the next sport.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
It's all related.
Cramping to practice vs pushers.
Attitude to play vs pushers.
Attitude to cramping is also related. You don't cramp if you can let go and say .."nice shot".
How to avoid cramping? You can apply X and Y. Or you can apply well rounded attitude.
 

arche3

Banned
No but you can get in better shape.

Lol.... if your over 40. Go challenge a 25 year old pro soccer player to a 2 mile race. See how you do.

In fact I am in great shape. But a 45 year old in great shape can't compete in terms of pure physicality to a 25 year old in great shape.

I am not sure why I cramped. It was very hot and humid. 1st set lasted an hour and half. I drank a lot. But the constant running in heat-humidity got to me.
 

mightyrick

Legend
Lol.... if your over 40. Go challenge a 25 year old pro soccer player to a 2 mile race. See how you do.

In fact I am in great shape. But a 45 year old in great shape can't compete in terms of pure physicality to a 25 year old in great shape.

I am not sure why I cramped. It was very hot and humid. 1st set lasted an hour and half. I drank a lot. But the constant running in heat-humidity got to me.

Well, thank goodness that most 25 year olds are mental midgets. Filled with impatience, feelings of invulnerability and the persistent need to "hotdog".

It is the great equalizer that enables us 40-something year old guys to still compete -- and even win -- many times.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
You get cramps because you CARE. You run and lunge to get every ball. You won't just stop and say.. "nice shot".
 

Limpinhitter

G.O.A.T.
Cramping has nothing to do with being in shape. They don't even really know why they occur, only that they occur more often when it's hot, and when you have nerves, and when you have a tough match that saturates the blood stream with lactic acid. Salt helps to combat remove them, as does the drink/tea I mentioned. Nadal cramps, and so did Chang. Were they ever out of shape? No. When you are in a match, anything you eat instantly goes into the area it's needed the most, such as cramping muscles. Quinine also works, but has bad side effects for many.

I take a combination of magnesium, potassium, calcium and salt before a match. Magnesium seems to be the most important supplement for me. I also supplement with Gatorade during a match. I used to use a drink called "Title." I liked it better than Gatorade which is too sweet and filling. But it seems they went out of business.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
Lol.... if your over 40. Go challenge a 25 year old pro soccer player to a 2 mile race. See how you do.

In fact I am in great shape. But a 45 year old in great shape can't compete in terms of pure physicality to a 25 year old in great shape.

I am not sure why I cramped. It was very hot and humid. 1st set lasted an hour and half. I drank a lot. But the constant running in heat-humidity got to me.

I am over 50 and play young guys all the time and a lot of them are not in that good of shape, plus they lose patience and go for to much and make to many errors.

I would not be able to challenge a 25 year old pro soccer player to a 2 mile race, but that has nothing to do with whether I could beat him in a tennis match.
 

arche3

Banned
I am over 50 and play young guys all the time and a lot of them are not in that good of shape, plus they lose patience and go for to much and make to many errors.

I would not be able to challenge a 25 year old pro soccer player to a 2 mile race, but that has nothing to do with whether I could beat him in a tennis match.

And cramping has nothing to do with tennis skill. It happens. Even if you are the fittest 50 year old in history. And to claim because someone has muscle cramps because he is not in shape is ignorant. Professional athletes get muscle cramps.
Your playing the wrong players if you always beat fat out of shape kids with no tennis IQ. I happen to play a lot of young tennis players with a ton of patience and skill. I agree a lot of younger players lack patience. I just don't bother playing guys I can bagel at will.

But hey... if your such a superman that you can out grind players of near equal tennis skill 20+ years your junior more power to you.
 

kiteboard

Banned
No one has to cramp anymore. Take the tea I mentioned. It will help against any good player, no matter how hot the day is.
 

user92626

G.O.A.T.
I don't get why we continue to get these 40, 50 years old men making arrogant statements like "cramping has nothing to do with being in shape" tennis skill, blah blah... :twisted: :)

Put your thinking cap on and think with me: if you are in the kind of shape that lets you play like you only have been playing for 30 minutes against an 80 years old, regardless that the match has been going on 4 hours already and your opponent is 10 years your junior, do you think you'll cramp?
 

arche3

Banned
Put your thinking cap on and think with me: if you are in the kind of shape that lets you play like you only have been playing for 30 minutes against an 80 years old, regardless that the match has been going on 4 hours already and your opponent is 10 years your junior, do you think you'll cramp?

I really don't know what this means? I can play 6 hours of tennis a day. 6 days a week. And not have any physical issues. But I have cramped exactly twice in the past 5 years. Both times against great retreiver counter punchers on seriously hot and humid days. It happens. If your claiming it is impossible to have muscle cramps because people in shape do not have them I disagree.

If I was playing someone slow , a beginner, etc.... I can play all day. I'm not really sure what you are saying. Cramps happen only for weaklings or that its normal?
 
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user92626

G.O.A.T.
arche,

That's narrow thinking. Just because you play many hours, many days a week, it doesn't mean you're immune to cramping (injuries or any other ailment). It's like thinking..if you're #1 like Djokovic, you can't lose. Nadal is in great shape, he can't get injuries! You probably think Nadal doesn't need to regularly train his fitness to the limit, why, cuz he's already in great shape. Faulty thinking at best.

Anyone can be in a good shape per se (by general concept/today's standard), but "in shape" condition is really relative to the activity you attend to. In other words, you and I are in great shape for mowing a lawn but we're no better than a couch potato if we're to play an ATP match. This sort of logic somehow escapes you and other 50 years old men. :)

So, I already pointed out to you. The key to get rid of cramping (and many other injuries) is to train and push your limits in your own term/time so that in match you feel like you play against an 80 years old opponent. You don't suppose Nadal would get cramping in a tournament first round, 3 sets, do you?
 
D

decades

Guest
I don't get why we continue to get these 40, 50 years old men making arrogant statements like "cramping has nothing to do with being in shape" tennis skill, blah blah... :twisted: :)

Put your thinking cap on and think with me: if you are in the kind of shape that lets you play like you only have been playing for 30 minutes against an 80 years old, regardless that the match has been going on 4 hours already and your opponent is 10 years your junior, do you think you'll cramp?

I agree. I believe it's fitness related, stress related, and hydration related. I haven't seen nadal cramp in ages. the last time I did was in the interview room. not on a tennis court.
 

arche3

Banned
arche,

That's narrow thinking. Just because you play many hours, many days a week, it doesn't mean you're immune to cramping (injuries or any other ailment). It's like thinking..if you're #1 like Djokovic, you can't lose. Nadal is in great shape, he can't get injuries! You probably think Nadal doesn't need to regularly train his fitness to the limit, why, cuz he's already in great shape. Faulty thinking at best.

Anyone can be in a good shape per se (by general concept/today's standard), but "in shape" condition is really relative to the activity you attend to. In other words, you and I are in great shape for mowing a lawn but we're no better than a couch potato if we're to play an ATP match. This sort of logic somehow escapes you and other 50 years old men. :)

So, I already pointed out to you. The key to get rid of cramping (and many other injuries) is to train and push your limits in your own term/time so that in match you feel like you play against an 80 years old opponent. You don't suppose Nadal would get cramping in a tournament first round, 3 sets, do you?

What are you talking about? I was the one posting I had cramps? And I have had it in the past. Why is what I posted narrow thinking?

For the record I train and push myself pretty hard outside of tennis so I can play competitive tennis.

What I am saying is despite running and interval training weekly I still managed to get muscle cramps. Maybe I was not properly hydrated. Maybe I over trained that week.

What exactly about my post makes you think I am arrogant thinking I won't cramp at times or that I assume I should not cramp?

I think I am actually agreeing with you right? We need to get fitter against faster players.
But age does limit your higher fitness levels as compared to younger athletes.
 
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LeeD

Bionic Poster
Geez, again?
You cramp because you run for EVERY ball, you try your hardest, and you won't give up a point.
YOU WILL NOT CRAMP if you don't care, allow those balls to go past or drop short, saying with a smile, "nice shot".
Simple as that! Guys who cramp CARE about their tennis.
 

LeeD

Bionic Poster
A story you should know.....
Once upon a time, back around 1977, there was this gifted female high schooler who had 4 older siblings who excelled in tennis. The second oldest was a guy, so we'll discount him.
The eldest was a proven WTAPro.
The second was mentally challenged.
The third was the most gifted, physically, but impatient and sometimes downright ornery
The youngest had the unreal eyes, recognition, response, could pick up spin, placement, direction and bounce, unreal abilities. BUT!
She never ran to retrieve any ball. She saved her energy to hit first ball winners, or forces, and would stroll over to hit the winner, if she cared.
She WON the CanadianOpen around 1979.
She never got tired, because she never ran.
EVERYONE was a pusher to her.
 

tlm

G.O.A.T.
And cramping has nothing to do with tennis skill. It happens. Even if you are the fittest 50 year old in history. And to claim because someone has muscle cramps because he is not in shape is ignorant. Professional athletes get muscle cramps.
Your playing the wrong players if you always beat fat out of shape kids with no tennis IQ. I happen to play a lot of young tennis players with a ton of patience and skill. I agree a lot of younger players lack patience. I just don't bother playing guys I can bagel at will.

But hey... if your such a superman that you can out grind players of near equal tennis skill 20+ years your junior more power to you.

Okay your right cramping can happen to anyone, especially playing in the heat that this summer has brought. I just suggested to get in better shape because most of the older players I see are not in that good of shape.

If you are in good condition then that is great because there are so many that get by on their tennis skills and don't have the conditioning to go along with it.

By the way I am not playing fat kids and bageling them. But just because players are younger does not make them in better shape. I do win a lot of matches by grinding it out, one of the reasons for that is my limited tennis skills because I started playing late in life. So my strength is consistency and good endurance.

I have found that a lot of the younger players may be in better shape than me, but they cannot keep their concentration up in a long close match. I wear them down physically some and then their mental game goes away.
 
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