Predictions on Nationals

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by New Kid On the Block, Aug 30, 2007.

  1. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    3.5 womens is down to SCal and Mid West. My friend's team (Mid-Atlantic) lost 2-3 to SCal. Oddly enough...I know she's out there, and she didn't play in any matches but the first one...hope she's ok.
     
  2. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Well I wouldnt call them "much heralded". (for some of us who know them)

    Perhaps "Imfamous" would be a better term.

    Not sure if you caught it, but "SuperTeam" is a little joke on them. (it stems from one of their players last year calling another player from another team and saying "We are looking for a bunch of 4.0 players for our 3.5 "SuperTeam")

    Not that anyone that's in Nationals is probally any better, but I find it interesting that only one other team in all of the 3.5 Men's Nationals lost any players to DQ, and that player was at least DQ'ed in the playoffs. (SoCal)

    The "SuperTeam" has 3, including one who was DQ'ed before the season even started. (due to a fair play grievence)
     
  3. McStud

    McStud Rookie

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    4.0 mens champions will be from the Southern Section.
     
  4. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Is it me, or is the 3rd place match just a good opportunity for certain teams to throw some matches to get their rating down?
     
  5. lostinamerica

    lostinamerica Semi-Pro

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    Maybe, but most people that get that far are probably going to get to spend at least the next year up a level regardless.

    I am a confessed sandbagger but like all others I have met; by the end of the year, we are sick of the lack of competition and ready to move up. We are not going to throw matches at that point.

    Truthfully, many of us who sandbag unintentionally underrated and then just felt an obligation to those we play with so we agree to play for a year and find a new team at a new level.
     
  6. lordmanji

    lordmanji Guest

    just saw the finals for 2.5 Nats today. the Carribean team are ridiculous sandbaggers. those guys are 3.0 at least. and the singles player is 3.5 at least. he looked like a junior with his techinique, consistency and he could hit it harder if he wanted. ironically, he lost to the other guy from pacific northwest, Tony, who like the rest of the 2.5ers, are either actual 2.5s or 3.0s.

    but so cal women beat the carribean women so that was nice. the women, btw, on the carribean side were not sandbaggers except for the singles player who looks like a 3.0-5 women.
     
  7. CrocodileRock

    CrocodileRock Rookie

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    Good call BeBe. Congrats to So Cal.
     
  8. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Mid West takes 3.5 womens.
     
  9. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    Hmmm ... looking at the 3.5 men's results, I guess you were right in calling the SoCal players that played NorCal and Carribean 2nd stringers if you compare how the teams did in the Final Four.

    Hawaii apparently didn't have enough players at Nationals, based on the fact they defaulted #2 singles every match. That's unfortunate, because if Hawaii had their full line-up, I'm sure things would have been much more different.

    Did someone update the list I had posted? It appears that SoCal is doing very well so far.
     
  10. VERRIC

    VERRIC New User

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    I think Hawaii was missing there best players due to other commitment. Because So cal almost # one single players almost lost to there number three single player. With strong winds on friday and saturday, it favor the players who are use to playing in tropical storms and tornados.
     
  11. lostinamerica

    lostinamerica Semi-Pro

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    At this time, we have the following as champions...

    Men
    5.0 So Cal

    4.5 Hawaii

    4.0 TBD

    3.5 So Cal

    3.0 TBD

    2.5 Carribbean

    Women

    5.0 Southern

    4.5 So Cal

    4.0 TBD

    3.5 Mid West

    3.0 TBD

    2.5 So Cal

    We have all heard about Texas, Carribbean and NorCal as being cheaters. Oddly, I have heard little about SoCal. It appears that SoCal has wrapped up the sandbagger trophy for 2007. While mathematically possible that someone could sweep the four remaining slots and take over SoCal, that is doubtful. Apparently, Texas and NorCal may have been a little too zealous about cleaning up the sandbagging. Unless, the two of them throw out some awesome 3.0 and 4.0 teams (and from the looks of the teams on tennislink, that looks unlikely), they are likely to get shut out.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2007
  12. Topaz

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    3.0 Mid-Atlantic women's team is from NOVA, the captain was my partner in a tourny earlier this season...and I'm friends with most on the team. They've been working hard getting ready!
     
  13. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    This year's SoCal teams are indeed very strong.

    Good job with listing the champions, but to get a better picture, it's best to show the final four, and then mark the champion. Then do a year to year comparison to see if one Section has really good sandbaggers over another ;)

    The DNTRP for NorCal and Texas were adjusted heavily after last year's season. We should expect both Sections do well at 2008 Mixed, because many of the players were playing under 2007 NTRP.
     
  14. KFwinds

    KFwinds Professional

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    Javier, I just looked at the results; it's unbelievable that the guys we mentioned from the Wisconsin team actually lost matches. Just goes to show how far out of level some these players are playing. I also noticed that NONE of them have been bumped to 4.0 yet!!! I played for the Illinois team that lost to them, and almost ALL of our players got bumped. Our #1 singles player came within a point of winning his match, and he got bumped. How come these guys still show up as 3.5's???
     
  15. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    The only idea I can come up with is you guys have Early Start Ratings down there. (Ive played in Chicago tournaments before and heard how certain players know they are getting rated up as early as September)

    Wisconsin does not have Early Start Ratings (no Early Start Leagues), so their new rating wont show up until the actual year end ratings come up in a month of so. (after they sort out what happened at Nationals)

    There are still 3 players on that team that I would consider to be outstandingly above their level. I dont believe they lost a match.

    What was curious is that their 3rd place match looked almost like any of their other lineups that they were putting up whenever they had cliniched something (or in the case of 4.0, once they were not in the running). The captain plays singles and loses (he's not as good at singles as doubles but still he's pretty good), and they take the top ringers out of the lineup.

    Not that it matters, I believe they have to move up or split up, so for me that means no more SuperTeam at 3.5 next year. Hooray for that!

    Im sure they will do well at 4.0 since at least 3 of those guys are probally not 4.0's either. (by one of their players own admission they were finding people who were 4.5 or better so they could get to nationals)

    We've discussed this, and I'll bring it up again. There are plenty of 3.5 teams full of 4.0 players that we can argue all day long about whether they belong at that level or not. But what this team did goes way beyond that. (specifically finding 4.5 players, hiding them, soley for playing in the playoffs while other players probally sat out)
     
  16. New Kid On the Block

    New Kid On the Block Rookie

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    The teams that are in the final four teams were all extemely strong. I dont know if they are cheating or manipulating the ratings, but if these players were playing in my local leagues, i can guarantee you that they would not make it out of the first few matches. If these regions have all of the players of that quality maybe that is why they arent being DQ'd or bumped up.
    I guess what i am trying to say is, our region could only be competitive with these teams SoCal, Intermountain, Southern and others, if we were playing one level down from our current definition of levels. Meaning our 3.5 league should be playing 3.0 and so on.
     
  17. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    They had 2 guys DQ'ed (and one guy DQ'ed due to a fair play grievence).

    The rest of them were not bumped up because they did a good job or hiding them throughout the season. (throwing sets, limited playing time, using defaults as matches played, playing #3 Doubles)

    If you take away 3 players on that team (that barely played the whole regular season), they are not even making it out of the State, much less the Section.

    They will all get bumped up in the Year End ratings although with all the screwy math involved with year end Benchmark ratings, it's possible that the 3 best players on that team have a smaller chance of getting rated up then the rest of them. (because most of their matches are in the playoffs where they may of won, but they didnt win handily every time)
     
  18. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    They had 2 guys DQ'ed (and one guy DQ'ed due to a fair play grievence).

    The rest of them were not bumped up because they did a good job or hiding them throughout the season. (throwing sets, limited playing time, using defaults as matches played, playing #3 Doubles)

    If you take away 3 players on that team (that barely played the whole regular season), they are not even making it out of the State, much less the Section.

    They will all get bumped up in the Year End ratings although with all the screwy math involved with year end Benchmark ratings, it's possible that the 3 best players on that team have a smaller chance of getting rated up then the rest of them. (because most of their matches are in the playoffs where they may of won, but they didnt win handily every time)

    As far as why they dont looked bumped up like KFWinds teammates are, I think that's just due to Early Start Ratings. There are none in Wisconsin. (we dont find out until November or so what our rating is)
     
  19. lostinamerica

    lostinamerica Semi-Pro

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    The DNTRP may have been adjusted. It appeared that Texas has an inordinately large number of DQs versus most other sections. The Texas captains may need to have their players do a better job of managing their scores. :-D
     
  20. VERRIC

    VERRIC New User

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    I think if Norcal had putting in their first string players (against socal the first day) they would of gone away with the 3.5 championship.
     
  21. KFwinds

    KFwinds Professional

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    You are correct; we have "Early Start" ratings. That would explain why those guys haven't been bumped yet. Thanks for the info Javier -

    Kevin
     
  22. acurahand

    acurahand New User

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    Socal single guys were very good, according to my teamates who played against them. And for the Socal double teams were beatable, and they were the one who cheated on us. I knew it so well, because I played against one of their doulbe and they made so many bad calls in the first set , until I called the line judge. I hit a top spin forehand and and passed both of the guys, unfortunatley, one of them turned around and looked at the ball landed and took about almost 1 second to call the ball out, but the ball landed way inside the line. Everyone who were watching our match said it in, but this Socal guy took this point from me.

    One more thing, these Socal guy were so cheap that they did not bring and player gift exchange at all, and they even have a gut to ask my captain for our gifts. When my captain asked them if they brought something, and they told my captain the they brought themselves to National.

    The condition of the weather on the first day at National were vary bad, the wind is so strong, and effected very one. I was so bumped out that I knew I could play better than the way I played at National because the gusty wind messed up my timing.


    When we played with Carribean, I don't recall that they make any bad call, but their player did talk to their fan in their native language.
     
  23. VERRIC

    VERRIC New User

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    So what your point. They can't speak in there native language?
     
  24. KFwinds

    KFwinds Professional

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    The point is you are not allowed by USTA rule to communicate with anyone off the court in any language; i.e. the "coaching rule"...
     
  25. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    I'm not sure what you're implying. Why wouldn't a team put their best line-up on the first day? It usually sets the tone for the rest of the matches.

    Then again, either SoCal was not using their main (final) line-up against anyone in Flight IV, and/or they were continually tuning their line-up. In terms of frequency with win/loss:

    Final Four:
    (A) *Raffy Bautista (2-0)
    (A) *Vicem Munoz (2-0)

    (A) *Norman Granger / *Wilfredo Toledo: 2 - 0
    (A - F) *Nelson Toledo / Wilson Bisarra: 1 - 0

    (B - F) *Pete Edillor / Raoul Esquerra: 0 - 1
    (B) *Nelson Toledo / Raoul Esquerra: 0 - 1
    (B) *Pete Edillor / Rey C. Yamane: 0 - 1

    Flight IV:
    (A) Raffy Bautista (3-0)
    (A) Vicem Munoz (2-0)
    (A) Nelson Toledo: 1 - 0

    Darrell Yamane: 1 - 0
    Jose Allan Aquino: 0 - 2 (losses to Hawaii and NorCal)
    Norman Granger: 2 - 1 (lost only to NorCal)
    Pete Edillor: 0 - 1 (lost to Hawaii)
    Raoul S. Esquerra: 2 - 1 (lost only to NorCal)
    Rey C. Yamane: 1 - 1 (lost to Carribean)
    Wilfredo Toledo: 2 - 1 (lost only to NorCal)
    Wilson Bisarra: 1 - 2 (lost to Carribean and Hawaii)

    Nelson Toledo was only played for the finals (they probably already knew Hawaii would default #2 singles, so I didn't count that).

    Without going into details, Hawaii was short on players. Carribean had a rotation among many players. NorCal had essentially the same line-up every match except for one doubles pair.

    I don't believe NorCal's best team (I don't think they even had a final line-up, except for the four players consistently on every line-up since Districts) could beat SoCal's weakest line-up.

    Based on the semi-final and finals scores, I get the feeling that Vicem and Raffy will be 4.5 and not 4.0 when year end ratings get published.
     
  26. ssjkyle31

    ssjkyle31 Semi-Pro

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    If all the rules were enforced then tennis would be a very boring spectator sport. That the reason some rules are sorted of relaxed, i.e. offensive language, abuse of equipment (even though it was enforced at the national) & comunication with specatator (like jokes which anyone can tell). The ones that should be enforced are line calls from spectators & unsportman like conduct.
     
  27. VERRIC

    VERRIC New User

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    Raiden.Kaminari, were you there at 3.5 National?
     
  28. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    No, I am on a business trip to New York since Thursday visiting clients.

    People (captains) usually have patterns or tendencies. I did a quick analysis based on what I see posted on the USTA championship website. Usually I'm not too far off.

    If players in the final four are solid 4.0 players, the scores that SoCal singles players posted should put them at the top of 4.0, and even low 4.5.
     
  29. 2prestige

    2prestige New User

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    This is refering to 3.5. I think if Hawaii showed up with all the people on their team things would have been differently. Socal went 3-2 against Hawaii even with Hawaii defaulting one game. So if Socal struggled with Hawaii and Norcal went 5.0 against Hawaii its either Norcal played badly against Socal or Hawaii played badly against Norcal and the Carribean.
    I saw Socal vs Hawaii and they were very strong especially both team's #1 singles. The #1 singles match was very close, I believe it went to 3rd set 10point tie break going 11-9 for Socal. Both of them were solid, big serves from both, strong groundstrokes from Hawaii, consistent slicing and chiping groundies from Socal, and both had very good net games.
    I saw Socal's #2 player play against the Carribean and I have to say that he got lucky. He was erratic, his forehands were good but his backhand was very inconsistent. I must have seen 3-4 backhands go over the fence during that match. I think he was just trying to hit his backhand hard and hope that it goes in.
    i dint get to see much of the doubles but I tought that Socal didnt have solid doubles teams because the doubles line ups were pretty inconsistent.
     
  30. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    I also think things would have been different if Hawaii showed up with all their players. Someone posted that only their #3 singles player was present.

    On closer look, the Carribean team line-up didn't vary as much as I originally thought:

    A (played at least 2 matches)
    Alexander Tellez
    Andre Modesto
    Hector Martinez
    Hector Melendez
    Joel Rivera
    Jose Campos
    Pedro Rodriguez
    Reinaldo Schmidt

    B (played only 1 match)
    Juan C. Macia (3.0?)
    Raul Vazquez

    I'll try to get to the other teams later, since it looks like the 3.5 teams generated the most interest so far.
     
  31. ComeOnBeBe

    ComeOnBeBe New User

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    Hey acura boy Socal did bring keychains for the gift exchange, but i guess they didn't like you very much. Its amazing when you analyze the trends of those who lost to socal as being SORE losers. The team from the intermountain area was pretty cool though... although one of the players wives questioned if they were "still playing against the united states" due to the fact that everyone on the socal team is filipino.
     
  32. EZRA

    EZRA Rookie

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    Was down for Nationals for 4.0 last weekend. We were at the same Flight/Section with SoCAL. Honestly, they were not that strong. We beat them 3-2 with 2 of our reserves on the lineup (we were not playing to win since we were no longer in contention for the final 4 - SoCal was still playing for a possible 3-way tie if New England loses to Northen later that afternoon).
    -------
    Norcal won overall but I didn't think they were that strong. Florida got them on the prelims. They did have strong singles players but the doubles aren't as strong as I thought they would be, actually - they were quite beatable.
     
  33. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    So, you were playing 4.0 Nationals, yet your signature says you are a 4.5 baseliner? Hmmm, I think they have a word for that around here! ;)
     
  34. EZRA

    EZRA Rookie

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    I would self rate myself as a 4.5 to be honest - but people advised me to start out at 4.0 on my first season. As a matter of fact... I went to a USTA rating party and they rated me at 4.0 - I figured, if they say I'm 4.0 .. then I'll go as a 4.0

    And even after my results this year.. I checked the USTA early ratings - I was still rated as a 4.0 even after a 21-4 win loss record on the men's league. I was 11-0 during the regular season, 4-3 during the area playoffs, 4-0 on sectionals, and 2-1 during nationals. Teammates of mine with the similar record got bumped up to 4.5 during the early ratings.
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007
  35. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Ya, I guess Id excuse you from sandbagger persecution as well.

    Just because someone thinks they are 4.5 isnt really an indictator that they are one. (especially when they put "baseline banger" after it)

    But I find it funny that you said that you would self-rate yourself at 4.5 to be honest, yet you let other people decide for you to rate yourself at 4.0.

    What is a rating party? Is that anything like the old rating clinic? Were those people at your local club, or USTA teaching pros that you did not know?

    (I know several clubs around here that purposely underrate everyone based on what they perceive their teams are doing in sectionals)
     
  36. Raiden.Kaminari

    Raiden.Kaminari Semi-Pro

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    You know the problem with records is they usually include matches with players who played up :(
     
  37. EZRA

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    Javier: being a noob in all these USTA thing, I don't know any better. That's why I went to the USTA rating party to make sure I don't underrate or overrate myself.
    The USTA rating party is just a small gathering where all USTA noobs get themselves rated. We have such a gathering here in Roosevelt Island, NY (I'm in NYC). When I went there, they had a questionaire where you write down what you think you should be rated at. I wrote 4.5 ... after hitting a few times and playing games .. they got me down as a 4.0 ...

    Anyhow.. I may really be a 4.0 or a 4.5 - / Baseline banger or serve-and-volleyer ... doesn't really matter does it? I'm going to take down the signature stating my rating. I don't feel like arguing about how I play -
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007
  38. EZRA

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    True - especially during the regular season - but come playoff, it's simply not the case.
     
  39. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    People who are playing down always like to point that out.

    (there are just as many of both, when you get down to 2.5, and 3.0 and you are winning all of your matches, you cant use the excuse that all the other 2.5 and 3.0's are "playing up")
     
  40. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    I suppose if you cant defend it, you should take it down.

    But like I said, you're probally not a sandbagger. It sounds like you were just in some organized rating clinic. It all depends on who rated you and what their motivation is, but that probally isnt too diffrent then what used to happen in those rating clinics in the past. (or what happens when players join their local club today and get an intial rating)

    And heaven forbid that you might "play up" and taint the win-loss records for those 5.0 players in the 4.5 league who think they are really just 4.5.
     
  41. EZRA

    EZRA Rookie

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    What is there to defend? My rating? my results are there to show how I did in the 4.0 league. And all my losses were after I took a month to get married and have my honeymoon .. didn't even pick up a racquet for one whole month only to come back and have a 4-3 win-loss record during the metro-area playoffs. And if you don't believe the results, well you can always come up to New York and play me. I'm always up for a game.. especially now that the men's league is over.

    I am not a sandbagger, I assure you. I even told some of the USTA officials during that rating party that I did play D2 College Tennis but that was over 10 years ago and I haven't been playing that often since. I didn't downplay may game when they rated me .. they just said to start at 4.0

    By the way - I plan on playing up to 4.5 next season if they don't bump me up. Tougher competition just means more fun tennis ...
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2007
  42. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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  43. EZRA

    EZRA Rookie

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    This is getting redundant - I got rated at 4.0 by USTA people in a USTA sanctioned event/party. Please, try to understand.
     
  44. EZRA

    EZRA Rookie

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    Check this: This is the same rating session I went to a year ago

    source: http://www.metrotennis.com/usa_league/main.html#session


    Next Welcome Party/Rating Session

    Spring, 2008, TBA

    The welcome party/rating session is for new players who do not have a valid USTA rating. League coordinators & captains will be there to answer your questions, and certified raters will watch you hit and help you determine your rating.

    You must RSVP in advance by emailing us at welcome@metrotennis.com.

    Include your name, contact information, the rating session you are interested in, and what you think your rating is.


    Cost is $10.

    LOL - sure feels I'm on trial here
     
  45. Topaz

    Topaz Legend

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    Oh jeez, Ezra, I'm sorry I got you into all of this!!!
     
  46. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

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    I wouldn't say you are on trial. I just know that myself and others have gotten increasing frustrated with the fact that the USTA publishes their elite player guidelines (which I linked to in my previous post) and then they repeatedly ignore them - as it sounds like they did in your case. I don't blame you. I do blame them.
     
  47. EZRA

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    Topaz, it's okay :D ..

    Kyle: Understood.
     
  48. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

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    Im sorry, didnt mean to make you feel bad. If you are a sandbagger, it's more of the leagues fault then you're own, I agree. I am all for blasting the league.

    As far as the player guidelines, if you had previous tennis experience, there probally isnt anything in your past that says you should be 4.5 because those are all based on your player experience and not on your skill level. (unless there is something you havent told us, perhaps you'd like to plead the fifth amendment on that. :) )

    Also if I say something to the effect of ".....especially people who use 16x18 Forten Thin Blend....." will you take that off of your signature as well? Hard to defend that.... :eek:

    Id have to commend your local USTA officials though. If you were in my location they would want you to play 3.5 instead of 4.0. (probally on the "SuperTeam" that made it to Nationals, Id be willing to bet that at least 3 of their guys would beat you in a singles match)

    If you want to be in a 4.0 team, you need to be a 5.0 baseline basher, not just a wimpy 4.5.
     
  49. JavierLW

    JavierLW Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2007
    Messages:
    3,901
    Actually I think that besides "Sandbagger paranoia", what your local league is doing is pretty cool. Those look exactly like the rating clinics.

    The positive part of that is that the ratings clinics allowed captains and league officials to meet the new players and it was a great way to get involved and find a team.

    Now with just the self-rating system, new players have trouble finding a team (at least they do here). They call the league coordinator, she gives them phone numbers of captains, and for most captains they just ignore them because they are not likely to just pick someone up based on talking to them over the phone.

    Ive gotten tons of calls like this. I have a few peers who are running teams just for the sake of playing or are struggling just to find bodys and I steer them toward them, but Im sure there are a ton more nowdays who are just left in the cold.

    (and actually I think without rating clinics, Sandbagging from new players is actually more prevelant because captains will tend to only seek out players who they perceive to be strong for their team)
     
  50. kylebarendrick

    kylebarendrick Professional

    Joined:
    Nov 16, 2006
    Messages:
    1,042
    Location:
    Northern California
    I guess my problem with this is if you are going to have a "rating party" they should at least follow the rules. D2 college players that are 35 and under are supposed to rate no lower than 4.5. Ezra mentioned his experience to an official and they clearly ignored it. It seems that rating parties ought to start with the guidelines, not ignore them as an afterthought.
     

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