Pro Pusher

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by Deep, Jun 24, 2012.

  1. Deep

    Deep Rookie

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    I was checking out these vids..and noticed the guy that Jason played against..yuck..can't stand these types..annoying, but tough..

    Pro Pusher - white/white clothing
     
    #1
  2. CRWV

    CRWV Rookie

    Joined:
    Mar 8, 2012
    Messages:
    261
    Location:
    Philly
    Ehh, It seemed like Kana played more of a pusher (moonball, moonball, power shot, rinse, repeat).

    It seemed like the guy Jason played simply didn't have great groundstrokes and was intent on finishing at the net...Like a poor mans Gerulaitis...
     
    #2
  3. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,865
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Neither one of those opponents were pushers. Both opponents had better overall games. Lots of good variety. Changing of pace. Neither opponents gave the other person a chance to get a rhythm. Pretty good players.
     
    #3
  4. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,667
    Location:
    Here and There
    Nothing against Kana or Jason but how is this professional?
     
    #4
  5. Deep

    Deep Rookie

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    Really..seems like his opponent (the guy in all white) wasn't even hitting but just dinking shots..perhaps I have a wrong idea of a pusher..
     
    #5
  6. Deep

    Deep Rookie

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    ..not sure what you mean..but think it was an amateur tournament..i.e. no money involved..
     
    #6
  7. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,667
    Location:
    Here and There
    I know, that was my point. The title of the thread says Pro Pusher however.
     
    #7
  8. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,865
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    That isn't what I saw. I saw a player who ate all of his opponent's pace, and then went to the net to finish points. In the minute I watched, I think the guy hit two volley winners and an overhead smash winner. On top of that, I saw the guy hit an inside-in forehand that was anything but a dink.

    A couple of general rules for pushers: they don't really have weapons, and they hate the net.

    This guy fails both.
     
    #8
  9. Deep

    Deep Rookie

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    Ah...thanks! ..ok, had the wrong "definition" but to be honest, did not see actual "strokes" by the guy in white..true they were well placed..but all his strokes were more just "chipping" it back. Compared to the girls, who had actually had ground strokes..
     
    #9
  10. Deep

    Deep Rookie

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    ..eh..you're right..took a closer look..looks like they were topspin forehands..just looked a little "weird".
     
    #10
  11. tennis_balla

    tennis_balla Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2006
    Messages:
    3,667
    Location:
    Here and There
    Counter-puncher.

    Never seen this Gotta Want It series from TW. Looks like they're tapping into the reality show market. Interesting idea nonetheless.
     
    #11
  12. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,276
    I played a 4.5 like a younger version of that guy a couple months ago. Dropped the first set and then it started raining. Never been so happy for rain lol.

    I have a pretty good serve and he stood at least 2 feet inside the baseline to return. I aced him a few times, but he basically took all my time away from me by standing in no mans land and hitting no spin balls all over the court. Plus he got everything back, and could lob if I came in.
    Not a fun player to play and glad it wasnt a tourney but just a local club match.
     
    #12
  13. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    Location:
    At Large
    Other thing I noticed about Jason's opponent is the depth and placement on his strokes and how he finished his points. Not only did he not give Jason much to attack, he had Jason off the court (and even out of the camera frame) for most of those points. Look at the difference in how much ground each player covers. Jason did a lot of running. You don't have to hit every ball as hard as you can to be a good player.
     
    #13
  14. spaceman_spiff

    spaceman_spiff Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 24, 2005
    Messages:
    1,513
    Location:
    The crappest town in Britain
    I think he gave Jason opportunities to attack, but they were balls that had to be hit on the volley. Instead, Jason backed up to let them bounce and, thus, got pushed off the court.

    For example, S&V on the first point would have been devastating. On the third point, he could have come to the net after the FH to the guy's BH. Instead, he dropped back to let it bounce. Both times, he had his chance, chose not to take it, and saw his opponent do what he should have done (i.e., come to the net and put it away).
     
    #14
  15. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,865
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    Not only that, but Jason's directionality was crap. He got a few short balls and sent them RIGHT BACK TO HIM. Big mistake. One of those short balls should have been rifled to a corner. The other was an easy pass. Too many balls back to the opponent or down the middle.

    It's been said in other threads, but it bears repeating: STAY AWAY FROM THE MIDDLE.
     
    #15
  16. goran_ace

    goran_ace Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2009
    Messages:
    2,884
    Location:
    At Large
    Don't get me wrong, I'm right there with you spaceman and love to see players step in and take a high-midcourt volley as an approach, but it's easier said than done. Jason's a good player and I'm sure he has that shot. S&V on that first point would have been nice but that's because we only see the replay. On the third point in the vid I don't think the mid-court volley was there. The other guy's shot was put well into the corner so Jason would have been stretched/exposed and forced to hit a tough shot. His mistake was going for the rip to the backhand corner where the guy was shading. A rolled FH or even an angled sliced approach to the other side would have been the better play to get the opponent one the run and the opportunity to move forward and finish at the net.
     
    #16
  17. BullDogTennis

    BullDogTennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2008
    Messages:
    2,216
    Location:
    Big Orange Nation
    how do people allow there opponent to push the ball that bad and STILL get to the net!?
     
    #17
  18. decades

    decades Guest

    the guy jason played maxes out his abilities at 4.0 and probably is a nightmare to play at that level. He attacks and keeps the pressure on. Most 4.0 don't pass well. He probably dissected Jason's game and found his weaknesses. Still it seems like the difference between the two came down to fitness. This player is also one of these guys who gets up close to the service line on returns to intimidate, not giving any respect to the server. Those types need to be punished for that tactic; but most 4.0 don't have the artillery to hurt him with a big serve. but you can see by his unorthodox game that he doesn't have the weapons at 4.5 and 5.0 to trouble opponents.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 26, 2012
    #18
  19. jdubbs

    jdubbs Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Oct 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,276
    Actually I could see that guy doing ok at 4.5. He takes the ball super early and puts it deep into his opponents court. That's a very hard style to play against. I played a guy like that who just won our 4.5 club ladder.

    His strokes are ugly, but very effective. I would pick on his backhand constantly and try to move him around the court, and also come in as much as possible to give him no time to react either.
     
    #19
  20. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    37,257
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    I think we gotta look at where the ball lands, from the "pro pusher" dude.
    Deep, well near the sidelines, backhand corner. He's a solid 4.0 who gives everyone fits when he's "on". Gotta hit a lot of balls to beat him, since he's not going to hand over any points.
    You could see that in Soloman, Dibbs, Rochus, Barasetchi, Chang, and a bunch of other pros too.
     
    #20
  21. decades

    decades Guest

    well he was the top 4.0 in the tournament apparently. I can see him giving better players a good run for their money. obviously he is in great shape. and he probably gets everything back and he is a kamikaze style net rusher. we did not see his serve did we? But I've seen guys like this, guy who run up hills on 90 degree days because it's fun, and just get every ball back and put pressure on you every moment. It did look like he hit mostly forehands. You have to find every tennis players weakness and make them play it.
     
    #21
  22. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,597
    The Top 4.0 player seemed solid, great strategy. Just pulled Jason wide and made him pay.

    What I don't understand is when players say they have trouble generating their own pace? That's something I've seen more often then not, in the other way. Players have trouble controlling their pace.

    Just an odd concept to me...

    -Fuji
     
    #22
  23. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    37,257
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Not everyone is 18 years old, 6'2", 180lbs., have a long fast swing and use a 12 oz racket.
    Some of us are midgets, weak, old, have short stunted swings, and barely can move a 10 oz racket.
     
    #23
  24. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2010
    Messages:
    6,597
    LOL! Very, very true LeeD!

    My question is for a player like Jason though as well. Obviously he has some game, and he's got very solid technique, so I don't see why he has trouble generating power?

    -Fuji
     
    #24
  25. LeeD

    LeeD Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2008
    Messages:
    37,257
    Location:
    East side of San Francisco Bay
    Vids I've seen of Jason seem to indicate a very conservative personality, one more prone to push than to hit out with an attacking style. To hit out, you need to have the winners and forcing shots. Jason very likely would bagel me, but he'd do it with pushing and relentless running, rather than winning any points. He would win points with my losers, not with any of his winning shots.
    Most of the 4.0's I play with also have this conservative style, where they CAN, once in a while, hit a pro looking shot, but they also choose NOT to hit this style very often, and most of the time, choose not to initiate the point with any good strong shot.
    Maybe a question of can do or can't, I don't know for sure.
    I'm just glad I'm a lefty, can pinpoint my serves, and like to end points quickly rather than play a game of physical attrition.
     
    #25
  26. Deep

    Deep Rookie

    Joined:
    May 29, 2012
    Messages:
    123
    SOOOO he is a "pusher"! ..sorry, someone earlier said he was not..I'm far from analyzing players..but to me, seems like with a opponent like this you need to serve and just finish him at the net as much as possible..all his "hits" seemed very deflective..
     
    #26
  27. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,887
    The opponent didn't have the nicest looking strokes, but the points shown were not typical of a pusher. He was hitting the ball deep and then looking to finish at net with some nice put away volleys - not at all typical of what most of us think of as pushers.

    The guy had a lot of confidence in his volleys and didn't seem to be troubled to hit them in the middle of the court. I wasn't impressed by his court positioning, but you have to give him credit for staying calm and playing smart for his skill level. Seems Jason gave him a run for his money, but lost to a more experienced player.

    Just listened to the video. Jason described the guy as "a chip-and-charge/serve-and-volley type of guy who didn't give much pace." That seems to be an accurate description. Pusher doesn't fit because this guy loved to hit winners. Pushers, almost by definition, like to see the opponent make errors, not hit winners themselves.
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2012
    #27
  28. mightyrick

    mightyrick Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 19, 2010
    Messages:
    4,865
    Location:
    Austin, TX
    This is probably the most poignant thing to say about the opponent. He isn't a pusher because he hits winners. That's well said.

    A pusher wins matches with 0 winners and their opponent having 40 unforced errors.
     
    #28
  29. WildVolley

    WildVolley Legend

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2007
    Messages:
    5,887
    Thanks.

    It seems a lot of people use the term "pusher" just to mean a person who is consistent or a person who doesn't hit with much pace. In my mind, it is more of a style of play relying on bunting the ball back into play and using foot speed to wear down an opponent and encourage them to hit unforced errors.

    For example, McEnroe had odd strokes that weren't particularly powerful for a professional, but I would never call him a pusher. He was a guy who loved to take command of a point and finish it by coming to net and putting it away. Going to the net seems to be the opposite of pushing as a strategy to me, because unless your opponent loses it whenever you go to net you'll need to 1) hit a winner or 2) force an error. A S&V player who pops up volleys or bunts them back to the center of the court is going to get worked by a half-way decent player.
     
    #29
  30. Mrnoital

    Mrnoital Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Psychiatric hospital
    :confused: Take a ball and drop it and hit it as hard as you can... now have someone hit it to you and take a swing at it. What's so hard to understand? You are using your opponents pace to create yours.
     
    #30
  31. Mrnoital

    Mrnoital Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 19, 2013
    Messages:
    301
    Location:
    Psychiatric hospital
    The only type of pusher that most people here will ever encounter is the the type who pushes out of necessity. Their pushing style is a direct result of a lack of tennis skill. These are usually good athletes who's number one concern is to return everything. They improvise everything and frustrate 3.0 players. It's actually a good barometer of your own level. You don't see this player beyond a 3.5 level.
     
    #31
  32. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,705
    What about Nadal and Ferrer?
     
    #32
  33. dominikk1985

    dominikk1985 Legend

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2011
    Messages:
    6,436
    according to the general pro player section half of the top10 are pushers, especially andy murray and david ferrer:).
     
    #33
  34. TCF

    TCF Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 16, 2012
    Messages:
    1,908
    I agree. The guy in white is very interesting. Not the traditional moon ball pusher. Nor a bunt the ball back without a clue where it is going pusher.

    He bunts with a purpose, deep, corners, looking to follow up on any opportunities. He also has nice anticipation to cut off the next ball to make up for some of his slowness.
     
    #34
  35. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2005
    Messages:
    35,705
    Yeah and he is coming to the net on every other shot
     
    #35
  36. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,725
    Yeah, plus that he was hitting volleys from inside the baseline (something that I rarely do; I've surprised myself playing one, but only one point like that yesterday). The guy definitely had very good hands for that level of tournament, was coming into the net pretty fast, although he didn't seem to have much pace on his shots (that's why probably the OP called him a pusher, although he was not, he was more of a chip and volley guy).
     
    #36
  37. Fintft

    Fintft Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2007
    Messages:
    2,725
    Yeah, it seems to me (no disrespect intended) that was more of a pusher style.
     
    #37

Share This Page