Pro Stock Racquets 101 (Head)

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by GringoLatino7, Oct 1, 2012.

  1. GringoLatino7

    GringoLatino7 New User

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    Hello to all you hackers :)

    I have been spending too much time on this forum and for all you noobs in the same boat as me trying to learn about Pro Stock Racquet this is what I've read ...primarily from vsbab's posts, and he/she (you never know) seems to know their stuff.

    Later on I will write about Wilson Pro Stock racquets, this is a summary of Head Pro Stocks.

    Pro stock racquets are racquets designed for the pros/high level players. The reasons (taken from another post) for getting pro stock racquets are as follows:

    - You want matched frames
    - You want a lighter hairpin to work with
    - You like the way they are set up
    - They were used by your favorite pro
    - You want something to hang on your wall
    - You want characteristics that are hard to find in retail racquets that you can find in a specific pro stock
    - You want extended length frames
    - You want a molded or articulated grip
    - You want a heavier version and don't want to put silicone and lead in yourself

    Now for the fun stuff! Most of the touring pros on TV play with "old" racquets painted to look like a new racquet. The racquets have paint jobs on them. Previously the name of the pro stock racquet would be printed on the inside of the throat, but now (post 2011), to hide the truth of pro stock racquets, the code can be found underneath the grip, under the pallets.

    The MAIN Head pro stock racquet molds that you will hear mentioned are:
    PT10 = Prestige Classic 600
    57A = Pro Tour 630 (RA 53-57)
    57E = Pro Tour 630 (RA 58-62)
    57F = saw one of these on another forum, don't know much about it other than....(using the M&Ms/Santa Clause voice..."they doooo exist!"

    There are others PT161 (LM Instinct),PT167 (FXP Radical MP) but most of the hype online is about the 57A/E/etc or PT10.

    If you see a Head racquet with a TGK or TGT code they are ALL made in China, do my understanding they are just lighter hairpins, which make them easier to customize.

    Only certain pro stock racquets are made in Austria, most are made in China. Also the TGK has no Twaron...I assume the TGT's have no Twaron as well but correct me if I'm wrong.

    If you want to buy a Pro Stock Racquet used the price ranges from $250-$350...again...correct me if I'm wrong. NEW pro stock racquets...yes, "they do exist" run you $500!!!!

    The questions I have to further my knowledge are the following:
    - Are all PT10s, 57A's, 57E's still made in Austria with Twaron.
    - How do these racquets compare to retail sticks in general. Smaller sweetspot? Less power, etc?
    - One post I read said everything can be altered (Swingweight, Balance, etc) even flex? Is it possible to alter flex?
    - Does balance affect SW? Ex. If I had two 57a's, same static weight, same swing weight...but the balance of one was 8pts HL strung and the other was 4pts HL strung, with the SW being the same would you be able to tell a difference?
    - Why is it so hard to find a PT10, 57A/E in an open string pattern?
    - Assuming you're a Head sponsored player, can you just tell them..."I want the PT10 with a flex of 57 or 65 or whatever?" Does flex come from the mold? How do they make a racquet more or less flexible?

    I guess that's enough for now...maybe I should start a blog :)
    Pro Stock Racquets 201 coming soon!

    For all of you still reading...this is my perfect setup:
    - traditional Head feel (again, anything prior to the intelligence series)
    - open pattern
    - max 21.5mm beam
    - min. 6pts HL strung
    - sw 330-333 strung
    - RA 63-64

    Here is a video of me playing if you have a minute to spare:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8j4wlOFWsjQ
     
    #1
  2. Circa 1762

    Circa 1762 New User

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    I know nothing about pro stock, but the answer to your second question above is yes. Rackets with the same weight and SW but different balances will absolutely swing and play differently. I speak only from experience, but I don't think anyone here will disagree (and there's probably physics to support). You can think of balance and SW as being two separate variables. Stock rackets with higher SW-to-weight ratios tend to also be less head light, but this isn't necessarily the case.
     
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  3. greg280

    greg280 Rookie

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    so many people miss the point regarding pro stock frames........my reason is they or the ones i use have totally different points of flex than the retail counterparts. they feel different and they are different!!!???? i can take a retail kblade 98 and lead and silicone it to say 13 ounces with a 32cm balance.... strung. my h22, same weight and balance hits a better more solid ball with better feel and control. 5.0 level plus. for the love of god does anyone here get it yet??? christ.
     
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  4. greg280

    greg280 Rookie

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    nice strokes gringolatino7! impressed.
     
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  5. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    No one "here" gets it except maybe a few people. Most of the stuff that is posted on this board is laughable. The various theories posted as facts about certain rackets and materials are amusing. You have to take almost everything with a large grain of salt.

    Second the nice ground strokes. If I lived in hotlanta I would say let's hit out. :)
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2012
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  6. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    Good to see someone else who hits the backboard intensely. Forehand looks very solid. Backhand seems to spray if you aren't in excellent position. Keep enjoying your tennis and even though finding out about all of this is very interesting, don't take your equipment too seriously.
     
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  7. greg280

    greg280 Rookie

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    agreed fearsome forehand.
     
    #7
  8. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Hey there!

    Just for one, your prices are a bit off. They range anywhere from around $130-$1000+ depending on who they were used by and what exactly they are. (I've bought my fair share throughout the past few years :razz:)

    Depending on the stick, the sweet spot can be smaller or larger then retail counterparts. The PT series play like their "old" counterparts. Small sweet spots with a fair amount of flex and depending on the set up, low powered.

    Pretty much all specs can be altered to my knowledge really depending on the pro who is using them. Lead tape / silicone specs are easy to change and decide on due to the extremely light hairpins. Flex I'm not sure on. (To be clear, I've never seen a "stiff" PT series.)


    For me, yes it would be different to play with different balanced rackets. Hence the fact people like to buy matched pairs/trio's/quads etc.

    With the PT series, it's tough to find an open pattern for the sheer fact as far as I know, only top pros are using them. I know Murray uses the open pattern 57A, but off the top of my head I honestly can't think of any one else who does. (Ever seen a AM frame for sale? They are pretty hard to come by!)

    Layups are also pretty different, as someone mentioned with flex points. (I have some prostock prestige mids, that flex in way different spots then the retail version making them feel pretty cool IMO, but as you may see, I'm not good enough to play with them as my normal sticks!) Hence, that even though one may have matched sticks in spec to retail, if they flex points are different then the sticks will never truly feel the same.

    -Fuji
     
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  9. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nice strokes..I could never hit the wall that hard and then keep my shots in the court right after though.lol.
     
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  10. Lefty78

    Lefty78 Professional

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    Humorous post

    PT57E = iPrestige MP
     
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  11. GringoLatino7

    GringoLatino7 New User

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    Quick Questions:
    1) The PT10 (Pro Tour 630) what is the headsize? Did/does it come in multiple headsizes, Mid, MP, etc

    2) Same question but for the 57A (PC600)
     
    #11
  12. GringoLatino7

    GringoLatino7 New User

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    how do you delete a post! lol

    OK so I got them mixed up..sue me...the PT10 is the PC600 and the 57A is the PT630...my apologizes...still tell me the headsize(s) please
     
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  13. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    The Pro Tour MP is 630cm 97inches.

    The Prestige Mid is 600cm 93inches (or 90 depending how one measures.) According to Head, 93.
     
    #13
  14. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    The Prestige Mid is actually 89.5. :razz:

    -Fuji
     
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  15. Fearsome Forehand

    Fearsome Forehand Professional

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    It used to be 89.5 and then the marketing guys made it magically grow to 93. :)

    Maybe they sprinkled some twaron on it. :roll:
     
    #15
  16. GringoLatino7

    GringoLatino7 New User

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    So is this accurate?
    - The PT10 (PC600) was only available in a mid, any anything I see for sale online I can assume it's 89.5/93 in2?
    - The PT57A (PT630) was only available in a MP, """""" 97in2?

    Thanks!
     
    #16
  17. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Bahahahaha yes!

    -Fuji
     
    #17
  18. Adidas_Anderson

    Adidas_Anderson Semi-Pro

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    Just a question why a pt57a can be so much expensive than the prestige tgt series?
    because of the low flex?
     
    #18
  19. Hidious

    Hidious Professional

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    I guess because of where they are made + the hype/rarity factor.
     
    #19
  20. Down_the_line

    Down_the_line Legend

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    Settle down there, champ. Maybe some people, like myself, just don't have the time to take equipment that seriously. Some people don't care. I'm fine with simply buying a racquet off the shelf in retail form, stringing it up how I like and maybe experimenting with some lead tape.

    I do have one question, though. The consensus seems to be that Djokovic really uses a Microgel Radical MP under his IG Speed paintjob. What would the code for that be, seeing as how it sounds like every frame has a code?
     
    #20
  21. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    Off the top of my head it's a 23X.X. If I remember it's in the 230's, I'll try to find it for you though.


    EDIT: From what I see, it's the 231.2.

    -Fuji
     
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  22. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    That would make sense , the 231.2. As luck would have it I've got a couple of those.. They actually hit really well. I tried capping one, that wasn't a massive success but the other one actually hits really well. I'll go and flex it if anyone is interested?
     
    #22
  23. Down_the_line

    Down_the_line Legend

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    Much appreciated, Fugi. Thank you!
     
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  24. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    That'd actually really awesome of you, I've been wanting to know the flex on them for a while.

    -Fuji
     
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  25. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    You're welcome! :D

    -Fuji
     
    #25
  26. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    Easy with the 'champ's, Greg's actually a very knowledgeable guy who can actually play who is as frustrated as many of us with people that stumble across this forum (which from its title of Pros' Racquets and Gear one could reasonably assume to be there to discuss exactly that) trying to say that retail racquets are the same and play the same as retail racquets.

    There is a wealth of information already on these boards yet many seem to have to repeat the same old stuff and it gets a bit tedious.

    If you've gone to the trouble and expense to buy and play with pro stocks as Greg and quite a few other members here have, one would hope that those who haven't would have the sense to ask questions and to try and learn rather than saying how to suck eggs?

    It is guys like Greg that will provide the answers to the harder questions out the there on pro stocks that many don't even know exist, not the retail racquet buyer.

    To try and help with where I think you're going with this, the retail Microgel Radical MP could well be light enough to add a fair bit of lead and silicone to it to make it play damn close to the 231.2. Funnily enough I didn't even know the 231.2's I had were the Microgel Radical MP, thats why I capped one, only bumper I could find that fitted! One of the ones I have was used by a top 100 woman on tour. Most other retail sticks like the prestiges generally and the Tour 90 are just too heavy stock to achieve similar feel to the equivalent pro stock at a practical weight for your average player?
     
    #26
  27. Down_the_line

    Down_the_line Legend

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    Thanks for the input Big John. I didn't mean to disrespect Greg in any way, I just thought he was overreacting. There are different ways to handle the newbie questions, even if they are constant and repetitive, and lambasting the newbs for not grasping more complex tennis equipment concepts is not a good way.

    Anyway, again, thanks for the input. I'm finding this pro stock stuff interesting and am just starting to scratch the surface of it all.
     
    #27
  28. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    That's ok, I can relate to him sometimes, you're trying to show people something new or talk about something that isn't generally known or common knowledge and people seem to want to have potshots at you rather than be interested in it.

    In essence, if people don't like pro stocks or think they don't exist, don't come or post here! :) This is a place for people that do like them, some who use them and what I find most useful is being able to learn from others' experiences along the way.

    I've just bought 5 actual Tipsarevic frames for instance and am trying to figure out how to best set them up. I'm not sure how many of these there are out there but some people may be interested. I've got a Verdasco Tecnifibre coming as well to compare, apparently it is a bit more flexy. I'll start a thread on those shortly when the Verdasco arrives and what's the bet someone will try and tell me that they are either fake or a retail Tecnifibre.. :)

    They seem to have head style pallets on them for a start, I found that interesting? I'm thinking extended.. :)

    I think it is hilarious that after all of this time the Djokovic racquet is a humble pro stock Microgel Radical MP.. :) The 51 flex rumour had been doing my head in for ages!
     
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  29. Adidas_Anderson

    Adidas_Anderson Semi-Pro

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    are the latest Pt57a with IG paintjob is also made in Austria? i thought they were also made in china though :/
    its a difference about 200 euro :/
     
    #29
  30. dr325i

    dr325i Legend

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    Because of the quality and feel and because it is a TRUE paintjob. The TGK, for the most of it is not a PJ, just the Pro stock version of the retail stick
     
    #30
  31. Adidas_Anderson

    Adidas_Anderson Semi-Pro

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    Quality reasonable answer!! thanks for explaining to me :)
     
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  32. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    Am I correct to assume that most pro sticks are more flexible than retain ones? If the flex rating is in the 50s, that would explain how these guys can play with poly strings day-in, day-out (in addition to lower tension). But a stick with flex in 50s would be hard to play with against big hitters!

    Also, how heavy/light are the typical pro sticks before any customizations?

    Where can I get my hands on a pro stick? Would love to try one.
     
    #32
  33. vsbabolat

    vsbabolat Legend

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    Nope..........
     
    #33
  34. dr325i

    dr325i Legend

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    Nope, most of the Pro stock rackets are just the lighter versions of the retail stick (TGKs, TGTs...)
    You can get them on e Bay or on string forum net
     
    #34
  35. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    But the mold and the layout is different for pro stocks, right? Even if I weigh up a pro stock to the weight of a retail stick, it would feel very different?

    Just trying to figure out other than the lower weight (which allows pros to customize), what is unique about the pro stocks.

    Thanks!
     
    #35
  36. dr325i

    dr325i Legend

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    I believe this has been covered many times before. Shortly:
    - The Pro stock versions of the Retail -- TGK/TGT, you cannot spot the difference by looking at the pictures. Surely, the pro stock comes with a player sticker inside the throar, most of the time with the Calfskin Head Leather and Pro stock buttcap. However, you can put all that on the retail or remove it from the pro stock. The mold is identical to the Retail. The stiffness and layup is MOSTLY identical (there are some TGKs with a special layup -- TGK238.3, TGK231.3 are examples). There are also some with a specific string patterns -- again 231.3 (MG Radical MP with 16x19), 260.2 (YT Rad MP 16x19), etc
    - The Paintjobs (like the PT57A or PT57E) are painted molds that look like current, retail stick. The PT57A is almost identical mold as the TGK238.x or TGT293.x (Prestige MP) but not totally identical. Easiest way to spot it (not that the paint and markings are identical to the retail) is at the string channel endings that extends further passed CAP than the retail stick.

    What is unique to the pro stock:
    - To you, it may be nothing, to me it may be everything and vice versa.
    - To me, the biggest advantages were -- ability to add silicone without getting it too heavy. I love the silicone feel, and love my racket to remain within 350g strung with OG.
    - Also, the ability to set the weight and balance the way I want it. There was no way to set the retail Prestige at 350g strung with OG and at 32.8cm balance with silicone in the handle. The retail would easily fo to close to 370g trying to accomplish that.
    - What I liked about the PT57A is the flexibility, softness and vibration frequency that helped with my tennis elbow.

    So, to me, the Pro stock was worth every penny. If you're buying it just to say you have it, it is not worth it and it is not going to make you a pro. It may improve your game though due to the points I listed above.
     
    #36
  37. gsharma

    gsharma Professional

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    Thanks for the info. I understand it's just a racquet but I've always been curious about pro-sticks, especially PT57A. I play with old-schools racquets, high-flex, low-powered so it will be fun to try it out. Now I just have to find one in reasonable condition and for reasonable price.
     
    #37
  38. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    :razz: aren't we all???

    -Fuji
     
    #38
  39. Adidas_Anderson

    Adidas_Anderson Semi-Pro

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    WELL EXPLAINED , THUMBS UP for many charc.
     
    #39
  40. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    Managed to remember the TGK 231's. Correct me if I'm wrong but I think Djokovic would be using the TGK 231.1, Microgel Radical MP mold in flexy form, around 60 flex, tight pattern?

    The 231.2 is also tight pattern but is stiffer, more like a pt57e in flex. Was used by Chardy and Casey Dellacqua. Has much more pop but feels quite different to the 231.1, a little like the difference between a pt57a and a pt57e? Plays a bit like an uncapped pt57e in my opinion, quite liked it.

    The 231.3 is the open pattern flexy version used by Cilic. Could be same layup as the 231.1 but in 16 19, so around the 60 flex mark?
     
    #40
  41. Stroke

    Stroke Rookie

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    Big John, You have hit with so many pro stock racquets. Could you tell me how they compare to an old school racquet like the POG OS.
     
    #41
  42. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    Funnily enough I've never hit with the POG OS? I've hit with the OS Radical Yellow and Black and AA's actual stick though, and it seems that some of the older racquets like the pro tour 630 and the radicals that followed it had a lot more flex than the modern day racquets and they have a lovely cushioned, soft feel. I guess the problem with them was a lack of pop and that is something that I am yet to really overcome with my pt57a's on serve, there just isn't that big pop on the first serve like there is with say a pt57e that is stiffer.

    Once we start talking pro stock instead of retail, there are those pro stocks that are remakes of older style racquets like the pt57a, pt10 etc and then there are TGK 238.5's etc that are lighter than the retail version but similar flex, then there are the custom layups of the retail stick like the 231.3 that has a different string pattern and different flex? Then there are some pro stocks that just don't exist at all retail, like the Grigor Dimitrov 93?
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
    #42
  43. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    Without wishing to reopen Pandora's Box, the retail version of the pt10, the Prestige Classic 600, has the same lovely flex as the pro stock. Where the pro stock is a remake of the retail or an older retail, similar racquet just made lighter.

    Where the pro stock is a different layup (made differently or with different materials), it will obviously feel and play quite differently. This is also clearly the case if it is a different string pattern like the 260.2, it will play very differently from the retail Youtek Radical MP.. The 260.1 on the other hand, will feel similar apart from the weight.

    In summary, the retail racquets have the weight more evenly distributed through the frame where as the pro stocks come lighter from the factory to be customised later, which is done generally with lead in the head and silicone in the handle. The modern trend is a 'polarised' set up, with lead at 12 under the bumper.

    The silicone gives a lovely dead but solid feel where are some of the retail racquets with less weight in the handle feel less solid and hollow. The lead at 12 gives your rally ball a lot more natural shape and spin and hence margin for error. Most pros seem to set up their racquets this way. My Tipsarevic sticks on the other hand, have the lead at 3 and 9 which make them hit the ball well flat, not so much spin. Roddick also had this setup?

    Your pro stocks can be set up however you like mostly, some like the Grigor Dimitrov 93 that was made for Fed are so heavy in the head even with no lead that there isn't much you can add without it turning into a club! :) But most can be made lighter than the retail if you like with different balances than the retail and I think that with the solid feel from the silicone and the shape from the lead in the head is what attracts most people to pro stocks over retail.

    The hairpins come longer than standard and can be cut to whatever length also. This appeals greatly to me, big fan of the longer sticks, seems to hit a ball with more power and spin which helps when you move like I do.. :)

    Some people prefer the weight distribution like the retail has and the weight of the retail, great if you do because they are generally cheaper and more readily available! My preferred specs are 340 strung, 27.5 long, balance 33cms with a flex around 60 and there aren't many racquets that are like that on the retail front, hence I tend to buy and play with pro stocks and get much enjoyment from trying the different ones.
     
    Last edited: Oct 8, 2012
    #43
  44. cmendez79

    cmendez79 Semi-Pro

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    Hi Big John,

    Can you get the 237.2 or 237.4????

    Thanks
     
    #44
  45. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    I had some 237.2's and traded them to Aimr75. I'm going to start a new selling thread today with what I have at the moment..
     
    #45
  46. Big John

    Big John Rookie

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    As for the POG OS, don't know much about the older Princes and what the players actually used. I know Pat Rafter apparently used a few different pj's from what was on the paint but was the racquet underneath any different from the older retail stick? I think Babolat might be a bit like this as well, players mainly using an older racquet under the paint like the Pure Control Plus under Pure Storm paint that quite a few players used rather than a completely custom pro stock?

    Does anyone out there have some more insight on this?
     
    #46
  47. finalfantasy7

    finalfantasy7 Semi-Pro

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    Hi, i ve got a question about a pro stock head, so i thought this was the best place to ask, rather than a new thread.
    I ve been reading and someone said that a tgk, if its a real one should have tgk/tgt printed on to the mold of handle underneath leather grip?

    Someone is selling me a tgk237.1 - it has no leather grip, on the handle, their is TKB2 molded onto the handle, is it real or fake, what does this mean?
     
    #47
  48. niktub

    niktub Semi-Pro

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    TK82 is the pallets code
     
    #48
  49. finalfantasy7

    finalfantasy7 Semi-Pro

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    ok, thanks
     
    #49
  50. NLBwell

    NLBwell Legend

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    A question about pro stock sticks.
    Generally, I believe, the pro stocks don't have all the add-on technologies like Microgel, Innegra, etc.
    However, if a player wanted it (perhaps a pro who grew up playing with a Microgel as a junior) could/would they put the old add-on technology in?
     
    #50

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