ProKennex: Moving particles= unaccuracy? Please advise

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by danbrenner, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Hey guys. I re demod the Qtour 295. i got over the stiffness which is verylow. but now something else is bothering me. That sand nonsense at the head corners. it seems like on certain shots that i am getting some extra inertia, but that im not wanting it. Its like it has a brain of its own, and it slows you down sometimes, and over swings at others. This is crazy. i like the feeling of precision, and this kinda takes that away. Do you guys feel what im talking about?


    For those of you that dont know what i mean by sand in the head. PK uses a system in which at 2,4,8,and 10 oclock, they have sand particles loose, in four compartments of the head, which move after you swing or hit the ball. strange..
     
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  2. PKfan1

    PKfan1 Semi-Pro

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    I know what the particles are, but I don't know what you are talking about as far as inaccuracy is concerned. Maybe it's just this racquet, I have a ki5 and I don't find any incosistencies in my strokes.
     
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  3. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Cool. But on the Qtour 295 it seemed to me as though my racquet head speed was influenced by this Kinetic mass movement. And it makes perfect sense when you think about it that moving mass in a moving object is going to make inconsistencies. This technology makes the swing speed and rhs change under different variables. And that doesn't seen so appealing. I love these sticks, but this is a real mind boggler. Who need extra mass moving around a racquet head. So inaccurate. I will demo again with different strings, but it was evident to me that my forehand had extra this albeit that I didn't want it at that time, when swinging. Caused me to over hit a lot. Alas I will try it out again.
     
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  4. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    It created too much torque on impact. its like if a baseball bat had sand in it. What do you think would happen when you swing? come on man.. This is just a company looking for a gimmick. Albeit this time at the cost of the user.
     
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  5. sundaypunch

    sundaypunch Hall of Fame

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    The torque created by the sand particles made it feel like I was holding a fire hose. Sometimes my shots were as much as one inch off from where I was aiming. I'm sure it was the particles.
     
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  6. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

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    Wow. Just wow. There is a minuscule amount of material in these racquets. This is taking the usual unfounded utra-sensitivity in these parts to a new level.
     
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  7. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Im not sure what you are trying to say? do elaborate..
     
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  8. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    enough that i can feel it. im not here to complain unnecessarily, but i really like the stick, and just felt my rhs had variance due to the particles shift.
     
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  9. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    any which way you slice it, moving particles in racquets, is a stupid idea. it can only cause discrepancies in rhs. moronic idea. PK should find new, or stick with the old ways of keeping stick arm freindly. This is a dumb idea all the way through.
     
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  10. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    I disagree. Kinetic tech is one of the ideas that actually works. It allows players with arm issues to use a stiffer racquet without pain. I had a pretty bad wrist injury from a biking spill and the pk 7g let me play in comfort again.

    Pro kennex is a very underrated racquet company imo.
     
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  11. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    I'm pretty sure it's not the racquet. BTW, the kinetic system was a good enough idea that the ITF mandated that research be done on it to make sure it's legal because moving mass in past racquets was considered unfair. 2 universities, including M.I.T., did the testing. They not only concluded it was legal (because the balance was NOT affected in any way because the movement is not up and down the racquet), they also concluded that it dampened shock, which is good thing for people with sensitive elbows. Pro Kennex claims it's the only racquet technology out there with scientific evidence that it reduces tennis elbow, and many people on this forum have attested to the arm-friendliness of these racquets.
     
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  12. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    i love em too. but like i said. imagine the baseball bat example. imagine throwing some sand in one. then swing. simple enough example. on another note though. are you switching to the ai 98?
     
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  13. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    i love em too. but like i said. imagine the baseball bat example. imagine throwing some sand in one. then swing. simple enough example. it would ruin the swing.
     
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  14. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Its a dumb idea Ramon. I dont care if MIT or the Queen of England endoresed it.. You just dont put moveable parts or object or anything else in a tennis racquet.
     
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  15. Power Player

    Power Player Talk Tennis Guru

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    Yes i am. I think it is a fantastic stick.

    I never had any issues with the sand in the 7g. The xl length just got to me over time.
     
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  16. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    Dan. If u don't like the sand thing then just cross PK off your list.
    Personally I think your making more of it in your mind than it is in reality, but if it's in your head, it won't let u play freely. I tried a Pk a few months ago and didn't notice the beads causing any momentum issues at all. But if it messes u up, then just move on.
     
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  17. Ramon

    Ramon Hall of Fame

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    Read my first post. They proved to the ITF that the moving parts do NOT affect the balance of the racquet. Other racquets in the past had liquid that moved up and down the racquet and changed the balance of the racquet. When mass moves in the direction of the swing, and not up and down the racquet, it has much less of an effect on your swing and power.

    Maybe you and the racquet just don't "click". That's nothing unusual. Get another racquet. My experience with the kinetic racquets was much more favorable. My TE is cured in large part because of it, and the effect on my game was positive.
     
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  18. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    Minute differences in grip shape messing up your game, racket feels like "it has a brain of its own?" Here's your answer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KutXyPEEbQs
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
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  19. jiddy-p

    jiddy-p Semi-Pro

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    My guess is that your perceived sensations with this racket are placebo based on your adamant stance that the added weight is affecting your stroke so much.

    If you really believe it so strongly, especially in spite of the evidence, then of course you're going to feel some odd things when you hit with these rackets.

    I've been playing with a Kinetic Pro Kennex for ages, it's my main stick, and I have never perceived any sensations from the weight of the sand being jiggled about.

    I don't understand the science completely, but the sand is very very light. All these years I've thought it was a gimmick that had no effect on ball striking. But people attest to the arm friendliness of this system. I always shake my racket a little to hear the sound of the sand shaking about, and it is so light I cannot imagine it carries much momentum. It's perhaps throwing an extra gram onto the ball, but no more. This stuff is very light.

    Mind you I don't love my racket all that much and I want to change, but that's because mine is an old 15g from way back and the head size is 105, too big for my current level. It also feels clumsy and chunky swinging through my one hand backhand, but that has nothing to do with the Kinetic system.
     
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  20. Chotobaka

    Chotobaka Hall of Fame

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    The material inside the frame is not flying around. It is encased in tiny individual pods. Minuscule material -- minuscule movement. The OP is a hypochondriac with his panties in a bunch over nothing that exists in reality. "My shots are flying", "I have no control". The usual nonsense. What else is new at TT? -- neophytes playing with horse *****, home-brewed, pseudo "science" theories as to why their game is lacking. It may, in fact, be that the racquet is not ideal for him for other reasons, but not for the cray reasoning spouted here. Grow a pair and just play effin' tennis, Alice.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
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  21. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Thanks Jack. Sound advice as always. I love the Qtour 295. It's probably just the soft flex that's giving the stick more tourqe. I bought a q tour and love it. I will adjust. I'd love for u to try it. Such a solid stick old school feel. Meanwhile I think power player is into something The yonex ai 98 is a dream. I will pick one up as well.
     
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  22. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    I love your answer. I'm definitely a premadonna when it comes to equipment. Always looking for the grail.
     
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  23. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    I appreciate the input. I have to say that I love the feel and build quality if this my first kennex in over 20 years. I love this Qtour. Try it out if you get a chance. It's a solid feeling 98 inch beast. Very fleet too. :)
     
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  24. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, its good that you're trying different things but don't struggle to make a racket fit if you're just not comfortable with it.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2014
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  25. Fifth Set

    Fifth Set Professional

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    If it's a "gimmick," it has been a successful one for a long time. These sticks have been on the market for a long time - 10+ years?!

    Personally I didn't like the sensation or the weight when I tried PK, but know that these racquets are well loved, especially by tennis elbow victims.
     
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  26. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Great answer man. You can address me directly though. No need to talk at me. But I love ur answer very funny. And the Big L, is one if the greatest movies of all time. After hearing all of your thoughts I'll put it down to the flex in the Qtour. I love the stick anyway. Unparalleled feel. Such old school sturdy graphite feel. Love it. Ill do my best to in bunch my panties and just play. :)
     
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  27. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Dude. Who is that chick. Your avatar is smokin
     
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  28. Fifth Set

    Fifth Set Professional

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    Lol, Julia Goerges, in a photo I took myself at the Stanford event.
     
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  29. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Dude she's so hot. One of my favs. And she gets offended when guys call her gorgeous instead of Georges. What a healthy curvy bod she has. Son of a hitch. My other fav is Pironkova. Google her. When she's done up make up and all, she's my number one.
     
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  30. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    I agree here, it is like when something is wrong with your car so you become ultra-sensitive to all of the sounds the car makes. I guarantee that the minuscule amount of material in the frame is not changing the trajectory of your shot.
     
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  31. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    If the sand moved completely from the handle to the end of the baseball bat it would mess us a swing....but if the and were encased in tiny 1/4-1/2" circles so the material could only move that tiny amount then it would not be an issues at all, just like the Kinetic System.
     
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  32. Bobs tennis

    Bobs tennis Rookie

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    Not familiar with the Q series but I've been using the KI series for a while due to TE problems.I can hear the particles in the racket when I shake it but really love the feeling when hitting.It may be "magic" sand but it has helped my arm.The frames due have a dull feel but that is what I like about them.I've questioned the stiffness of their frames but As has been said the technology seems to allow use of a stiffer frame by people with arm problems..
     
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  33. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    ^^^this

    there are too many OTHER (brand) choices out there to sweat one that makes u nutty :)
     
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  34. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Hey Jack. You have probably commented on this, but what are your thoughts on the AI98. i know you hit with the 100, but have you hit wtih the 98?. i love the 98. such a whippiness to it. and yet can hit flat or with spin. very versatile. ??
     
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  35. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Only Power Player has bought and plays with a modified ai 98.
     
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  36. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    Yes, I briefly hit with the 98 and really liked it but need to test it some more in competitive situations. I agree, it's a well rounded racquet that can do everything. I will report back once I try it some more. I have another demo coming in a couple days.
     
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  37. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    cool. yeah i love this stick. there is something strange but great about it. low powered precision, meets whipping machine. something like that.
     
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  38. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Putting moving particles into a frame is suicide. You get extra inertia and that is very unprecise. PK is not suited for today's game, rather for people with arm issues. Putting moving particles in a frame may be good for ligaments, but it's definitely not going to do your strokes any justice. And it's not just me saying this. Go to the feedback on TW for the q tour 295, and read one of te newest reviews of te guy saying it feels like there is an afterburner when he swings the racquet. Folks. Wake up. That is going to throw you off. PK needs to redesign their line. This is a disgrace for them. And Chotobaka, I have taken weeks of use with this stick among others, so as to not say negative things about the PK line, but after a Lin period of use and carefully choosing my words, I can honestly say that the moving particles idea is the absolute worst one I have ever seen. An actual disgrace. These racquets should only be bought by people with very serious arm issues and seniors.
     
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  39. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    I don't agree, I have played with three of the Q frames and think that the kinetic technology is one of the only good things in tennis technology right now.
     
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  40. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Well it's not just me brother. Read one of the most recent reviews for the Qtour 295 where the reviewer describes the racquet as having an afterburner accentuating his swing. So what does that tell you. It tells me that there is help with the inertia due to moving particles. Just rediculous. No matter what you or Chotobaka or anyone else says about advanced studies being used to make the Kinetic technology, I'm telling you that moving particles have no business being used in a tennis racquet. PK needs to man up, and change. Use anything you want. Animal fat, jelly beans, rubber bands, gel inserts, etc. But whatever you do, don't don't don't allow for moving parts in a racquet. It doesn't make sense. If PK would have taken those same beads and packed them in so that no change in inertia would take place when swinging, I would be all for it but this is a design disaster.
     
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  41. counterpuncher

    counterpuncher Professional

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    I think you need to re-read that comment it talks about the effect on the ball, not swinging the frame, it says:

    "Hit on time, and this frame powers the ball like it has an afterburner built in compared to most 98 inch frames."

    In any case that doesn't matter, if you feel the racquet is messing with your swing, move on, there are plenty of other racquets at there. I had the same issue with the RDiS200 295.

    I use the frame and personally like it a lot. I too have had control issues, as with some lead tape on the hoop, this is up there with the IG Rad Pro and Pro One as the most powerful 98" frames that I have used. My next string job will be Tour Bite, as I feel that a crisp poly will work well in this very flexy frame.
     
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  42. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    OK. Here is his exact quote.
    Comments: I string my two QTour 295s with Head Edge 17 at 48 lbs. I've tried stiffer polys and higher tensions and the power and stability suffered. The soft flex coupled with the Head Edge at 48 lbs pockets even hard hit balls perfectly for me. The moving mass hits the ball like a 12 ounce racquet -- no lead needed, if you do not hit late. Hit on time, and this frame powers the ball like it has an afterburner built in compared to most 98 inch frames.
     
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  43. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    There you have it. "The moving mass". Can I be any clearer. I am not merely trying to put down this racquet. I am pointing out that PK as a company is using a technology, that will literally make you play worse. With all of their tennis background and pedigree, they have manged to produce frames that will make people's games go downhill, albeit being good for TE. What a disgrace. I am appalled at the r&d team at PK. Whoever is responsible for the moving particles, should be fired, and barred from working in the field.
     
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  44. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    If you don't like it then don't use it. Why keep harping on this subject?
     
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  45. mawashi

    mawashi Hall of Fame

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    Yeah right, "soul" of a racquet. Maybe P1 has been doing it all wrong huh?

    [​IMG]

    If ever there was a witch doctor of tennis it would be you. Don't let physics get in the way of your "explanations" really.

    I get it really, PK sticks suck, yuup!
     
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  46. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Because I really think that the Qtour 295 is one if the best built/quality frames I have ever picked up. However this was all for nought, after feeling what the Kinetic beads were doing. I'm just dumbfounded that PK as a company would use such a wretched, backward thinking, redundant piece of technology. Shame on them. They would be so much better off, realizing the error of their ways, and getting rid of this absolutely rediculous notion of any free moving particles in their frames.
     
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  47. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    PK. If this thread reaches you, I have a simple solution for you. Simply pack more sand into the four corners, so that it doesn't shift. Problem solved. And you still get to use your majic sand without having to dream up another technology gimmick. It's as simple as that. You will at least that way not compromise inertia.
     
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  48. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    I would not be comfortable adding an ounce of lead to a flimsy frame. Correct. However if the frame is solid, then adding an ounce would work. I merely mentioned not adding an ounce in the example of a flimsy frame like lets say a Wilson pro staff 100 or something like that. But let's say you were adding it to a Qtour 295, or blade 98, you would be fine. So P 1 I'm sure is on the money. And I like the term witch doctor. I would change my user name to that if I could.
     
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  49. mawashi

    mawashi Hall of Fame

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    Ok witch doctor, what in your opinion is a "solid" frame?

    Give me some specs to consider...
     
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  50. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Qtour295. Blade 98.
     
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