ProKennex: Moving particles= unaccuracy? Please advise

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by danbrenner, Jan 21, 2014.

  1. mawashi

    mawashi Hall of Fame

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    Do you know what a pin is suppose to do?

    The blech 98 would be one of the last sticks I'll ever consider modding, waste of good lead. At 2pts and sw of 330g, to get it to 8 pts I need nearly 22.5 g for 9 pts I need 24.64g and 10 pts 30.24g.

    All that lead just to re-balance it and nothing to make it more stable.

    As for the KI system unless your swing is as jerky as an old man with arthritis how can a bunch of tiny bbs make your swing go all wonky? Or were you distracted by the tiny rattle?
     
    #51
  2. jaspert

    jaspert Rookie

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    Seriously, get over it. You don't like it, we know. Move on.
    Don't pick and choose certain snippets of another person subjective impression ( " afterburner " comment -no, those particle will not make the ball go like jet) to bolster your own argument about the moving inertia.

    As for " unaccuracy" ( if there is such a word) with the ball, what about learning
    to hit the ball properly.....:rolleyes:
     
    #52
  3. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    Sand packed tightly in there will not absorb the shock as well, which is the sole purpose of Kinetic technology. Thousands of people like and state positives from this technology, you don't like it, so just post your review and move on in life.
     
    #53
  4. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    [​IMG]

    I thought we went through this already???
    Dan, you don't like the sand in the racquet. There are dozens other racquet brands to
    choose from. There are many that find the PK technology useful and are not bothered
    at all by the sand. Why are you beating this dead horse?
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
    #54
  5. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Interesting chronology of thread

    Interesting observation. I've heard a ton of praise for PK racquets for people with arm issues that swear by it. I guess if it bothers you, there are other options out there. The Qtour 295 is a very unique stick... as I've noticed when browsing TW, and you click a racquet, they often suggest a few others below with similar specs. However, the Qtour is the only one I've seen yet that has none to compare to! Perhaps part of the odd feeling you are having is because these specs put the racquet in its own bubble, so to speak, with nothing similar out there that compares?

    Pretty interesting stick indeed: 57 RA stiffness, with a 22.5mm beam, 16x19 pattern, only 10.95 oz strung, yet a SW of 319 and 5 pts HL! Sounds like an awesome platform for customizing!



    Firstly, cool to hear you really like it. That's surprising about the sensation of "variance due to the particles shift", I think in all the reviews the first time I've read someone say the micro-bearings inside the racquet change their swing? Aren't they very minuscule and microscopic?

    Perhaps it just needs some lead, or the lightness of it combined with a very flexible feel is simply throwing off your swing. Hope you work out the kinks!

    Ah, bummer, I guess it didn't work out. No need to call it stupid though.

    I have a feeling the thousands of people that use and love PK racquets are happy with this technology. It allows many with TE and GE to play tennis. One of the top players in our 4.5 doubles league uses a 7G and he has the cleanest strokes and touch I've seen. He routinely beats guys with PDs, APDs, and former college players half his age.

    Perhaps you need a full swing to allow the micro-bearings to not affect your swing? Not sure, but I guess this racquet just isn't your cup of tea, and that's ok! No need to use your single experience to call on PK to change a technology that tons of others do, in fact, love.


    Oh, cool. Wait, I thought it was stupid? I guess love isn't always found overnight.

    Well, that's a nice turnaround, cool to see you do like it after all!

    But wait, you just said you love it? :confused:

    Ahh, ok I was right, you do love it. And you bought it, Sweet!


    I agree, the specs sound great! I may have to demo this Q tour 295.

    Got to love that solid old school feel!!


    Ok, now I'm really confused. So I can see it's a love/hate kind of feeling going on, but if we all agree it is good for people with arm issues... why the "man up and change" attitude? :confused:

    This thread is starting to hurt my brain.

    "I hate not only this racquet, but the entire company! And while,
    It's good!, but
    It sucks!, however,
    Thanks for helping thousands with TE!, and now,
    You're Fired!


    Yikes!

    Umm, I agree, rediculous indeed...

    Well, thanks for the entertaining read, and glad to see someone single-handedly "solve" the crises facing Pro Kennex. Keep up the good work resolving various racquet companies' R&D technologies, you will go far in helping to change operations procedures at many a tennis company.
     
    #55
  6. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    It's cool that we finally agree!!
     
    #56
  7. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Out of respect for Jackb1, I will no longer comment on the subject.
     
    #57
  8. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    No offense Dan, but I thought this subject was resolved a while back?
    Then you brought it back up again. Just wondering what in your mind was left unresolved?

    But I am not the "thread police"....do what you like :) If you feel like there is more that needs to be discussed go right ahead.
    PK's technology is very interesting and innovative, but the "moving sand" issue seems to have been exhausted. Am I wrong?
     
    #58
  9. jacp

    jacp New User

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    Put a cork on blasting ProKennex.

    To all who blasted ProKennex,
    Please pay attention and keep things in perspective.
    There was quite a bit of thought and testing done to come up with Kinetic system. Way more difficult and risky than adding few grams of "miracle" fiber here and there to create new generation?? of the same racket like other companies do.
    Give them some credit for that.
    Every once a while somebody comes out of woodwork to complain about moving particles; previously it was sound of moving pellets, now inertia.
    These rackets are on the market for quite a long time, there is obviously strong demand. 99.99999% of users do not complain about imaginary things and we can assume that for majority of them PK with Kinetic was not the first racket. So we can assume they had other rackets to compare to.
    I play with: Dunlop 4D 100, ProStaff 6.1 90 BLX and PK 5G.
    Other than normal differences between rackets there is no significant difference in physics of the ball hit. I hit winners, shanks and net balls using all three of them, no difference. There is no inertia, no sand sloshing noise, stop imagining things or looking for justification and/or explanation for totally unrelated events.
    PUT A CORK ON IT.
    Jack
     
    #59
  10. Hi I'm Ray

    Hi I'm Ray Hall of Fame

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    That's true, never thought of it that way. Great rackets IMO and the "magic sand" not only dampens bad vibes but it seems to add stability as well.
     
    #60
  11. JT_2eighty

    JT_2eighty Hall of Fame

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    Agreed.

    To be clear, I think only one person in the thread was blasting PK, but he kept going on and on, so it sounded like multiple person(alities).

    I've tried a couple PK racquets, and agree with everything jacp said, and I have run across many club players that love their PKs. Hopefully my funny remarks earlier were understood as critique of the illogical complaints. I think PK is doing awesome things and is under-appreciated by the tennis community because there are hardly any pros using their equipment. Sadly, rec players seem to gravitate to what gear/brands the pros use, instead of options more appropriate for the actual user's needs.

    Cheers
     
    Last edited: Mar 3, 2014
    #61
  12. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    Dan you are coming off as manic or bipolar..lol. But it made for a fun read.

    As for the whole lead thing - A LOT of pros use hairpins customized with lead, so you are way off on your assessment there.
     
    #62
  13. mawashi

    mawashi Hall of Fame

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    Another BP in the making, what doesn't work for him shouldn't work for anyone else lol!
     
    #63
  14. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Hey PP. You are absolutely correct. Lol. So in that vein, I would like to personally apologize to anyone that ha been offended by this thread. Yes I did feel a shift in inertia, but you know what. So be it. You PK users have obviously either incorporated that into your technique/or it's all in my mind and either way it's not an issue. The bottom line is that it's wrong of me or anyone else for that matter, to take the enjoyment away from anyone using this brand of racquet. I love tennis so much, that I can get carried away with very strong winded opinions, and I thank our TT alumni, namely Power Player and JackB1, for putting things into perspective. So again, I humbly apologize to everyone offended by this thread. And for what it's worth, the build quality on the Qtour295 is immaculate. I'm just sorry that I was not able to adapt to it, and make it my stick. PK is a fine company, and literally cures people of TE. Sincerely, Dan
     
    #64
  15. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    There used to be a girl on here who posted like you. She had a thread on handbags that was a hoot.
     
    #65
  16. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    That was a hoot. What are you a ***?
     
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  17. jwbarrientos

    jwbarrientos Hall of Fame

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    Two testimonial things I´m gonna share with you:

    1. A bad dancer trend to complain about the ground.

    2. As PK Ki user, my bad shots, extra or lack of something is not related with the frame.

    I accept that tennis is a sensitivity issue, some players feel ok with frames that others don´t.

    I ended with PK´s frame because GE´s problem and after an adjustment period is ok, even that I feel it underpowered, but the elbow is okey.

    That sandy noise i never hear it during a match, only in quite places out of the court.
     
    #67
  18. Stroke

    Stroke Rookie

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    Pro Kennex technology has been quantitatively proven to reduce racquet vibration and therefore decrease chances of tennis elbow. I still would think their lighter offerings though are not the best choice. Also, per Pro Kennex, the microbeads shifting on ball contact give one the benefit of what would be a heavier racquet on contact. For instance, a Ki 5 at approximately 11.7 ounces would produce the same ball as a 12.7 or so racquet because of the shifting particles. Not so sure about this, but it kind of makes sense in theory.
     
    #68
  19. Knife

    Knife Rookie

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    I really love my QTour, it´s great. Recovering from both GE and TE I´m still able to play much due to this racquet. I destroyed my elbow with HEAD Extreme MP, strung with either AluPower or WC Silverstring. Won´t ever string a racquet with poly again even if I miss the playing characteristics of it.
     
    #69
  20. mikeler

    mikeler G.O.A.T.

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    I never noticed the particles affecting my shots with the PK 7G.
     
    #70
  21. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    The only issue I had when using these frames was getting used the sound of the particles shifting. After a few days of playing I stopped noticing the sound. The 5G is a wonderful control frame..sort of a user friendly players stick with great comfort and with a very consistent string bed. The upper hoop was a bit too flexy for some. Never expericed the frame being inaccurate...ONLY MY FOOTWORK AND SWING PATH.. lol
     
    #71
  22. junior74

    junior74 Professional

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    I hear you, man. I too love the QTour, but am also having a hard time adjusting. I think your phrase "a brain of its own" is spot-on. I get really surprised sometimes, when I go for a "routine" shot, and it flies 2-3 METERS out. It feels like "I didn't do that"...
    BUT: Great racket, really solid feel. I am sticking with it, hoping that continious play will make it feel natural to me. It's the best stick I have tried with such low flex. I need that for my delicate elbow. Ultra-comfy and I love the shape of the handle! Also, one of the best sticks I've tried for service.
     
    #72
  23. junior74

    junior74 Professional

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    Wrong quote, there... Sorry.
     
    #73
  24. cork_screw

    cork_screw Hall of Fame

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    My 7g sounds like a salt shaker. You can actually hear moving material in the handle area and in separate areas of the hoop. If that bothers some of you, please know this before buying the racquet. I had no idea about this before buying. I would like to see how it plays without the kinetic material.
     
    #74
  25. maxrenn

    maxrenn Hall of Fame

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    I don't find any inaccuracy from shots resulting from the kinetic tech and it has cured my tennis elbow. Any inaccuracy is caused by poor strokes or lack of footwork/balance. The amount of weight added by the moving particles is so miniscule that it really wouldn't make any difference.
     
    #75
  26. junior74

    junior74 Professional

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    we actually use it in our band for percussion :)
     
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  27. junior74

    junior74 Professional

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    Maxrenn, you play the 18x20 version and it has cured your TE. I was afraid it was stiffer, so I went for the open version. Have you tried both?
     
    #77
  28. GoSurfBoy

    GoSurfBoy Semi-Pro

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    Does anyone have an 18 x 20 version (1/4 grip) they'd sell? I'm down to 2 frame choices for a new stick for tour play, but I think this 295 is probably going to be it. I really liked the 16x19 (played in stock form, though, as I'm not good enough or manly enough to add 1 or 3oz of lead....).

    PK is looking for a couple 18 mains for me, but only the 16 was released in the states, and they think what few they have are are bigger grips (although I'm almost 6' 3", I play a 1/4 grip).

    PS: You guys have remarkable feel and hearing. I put a stethoscope to a 295 and I couldn't hear a thing, and when I miss.....well...it's me.
     
    #78
  29. Knife

    Knife Rookie

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    The moving particles can only be heard when shaking the frame close to the ear. I have good hearing... :razz:
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2014
    #79
  30. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    I don't believe anyone who claims they can hear the sand shifting while playing. And even if they possibly could...it can no way be considered distracting.
     
    #80
  31. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    [​IMG]
     
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  32. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

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    I only have demo-ed a few PK sandy rackets and don't think they were inaccurate. I just didn't like the sound of stuff moving around in the frame so didn't buy one.
     
    #82
  33. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Who are we kidding. Moving particles is a stupid idea. I picked up a 295 last week for fun, and had some real inconsistencies with over hitting. Garbage technology. Just throw some gel or whatever in there. Not sand. Morons. Bad idea. I'll bet the genius that came up with this idea does t even play tennis. Just another Ivy League monkey, trying to make a name for himself within the company. Well you've succeeded moron. But you've brought the brand down a notch at the same time. MOVING PARTICLES. lol. Why not throw some nitrous in the frame while your at it. The new PKNOS 295. May as well why stop with sand. MOOOOOOROOOOONS. lol.
     
    #83
  34. jxs653

    jxs653 Rookie

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    Hmmm ... I think kinetic is the one of the handful technologies in tennis racquet which is 'real', not 'joke'.. Sorry,,
     
    #84
  35. junior74

    junior74 Professional

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    Amen to that.
    Keep on saving souls, eh elbows, Pro Kennex :)
     
    #85
  36. JackB1

    JackB1 G.O.A.T.

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    You think it's a joke and have been bashing it in this thread for months, so what do you do? Buy one "for fun"? Exactly who is "stupid"?
     
    #86
  37. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Yeah I bought one. Months ago when I started this thread. And once again months later to confirm my original sentiment will bash it again. But I didn't buy it the second time. Just hit with it. And yes it's the worst tec I have ever come across. PERIOD.
     
    #87
  38. Praetorian

    Praetorian Professional

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    Worst tech YOU'VE come across, yet an absolute godsend for many on this board. It's all relative I guess, and isn't it awesome that we have the right to express it. But, you keep on bashing it, we get it, YOU don't like it. What is your end game? To convince people that it sucks, when all you've done is have people provide testimony that it does work for them.
     
    #88
  39. danbrenner

    danbrenner Professional

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    Yes. I want this company to suffer based on what I know is fm garbage tech. Tennis doesn't need moving particles. Morons running this company
     
    #89
  40. TennisCanada1

    TennisCanada1 Semi-Pro

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    I briefly used the Ki QTours, and it was a very solid stick. I had a leather grip and leaded it up, and I got ample mass on my serve.

    The thing is, while I was mindful of those beads being in the racquet, it didn't affect the response of the frame whatsoever. The racquet was really plush and flexy, and I'm not sure if thats due to the beads or not, but what I do know is that the Qtour line is a line you can count on.

    For me personally, I thought the flat beam zapped out a bit too much of the power, and I was looking for a more open pattern, even though for an 18x20 it had IMPRESSIVE spin potential.. so I sold them and went for my trusty Prince Tour Pro 100s.
     
    #90
  41. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    I've used the Ki5 and I think that it's a fine racquet. I don't really even notice the sand in it unless I shake the racquet and then I can hear it. I moved on a long time ago as my arm recovered (I used it when I had some severe arm problems). If you want something with a lot of flex, without particules, then you could take a look at the Redondo MP - you'll probably need to add a lot of lead to it though.
     
    #91
  42. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    I'd suggest you sell it and buy a frame that suits you (duh!) :twisted:

    I'm sure your opinion will influence their R&D/management decisions :roll:

    You're the biggest whiner I've ever seen on this site
     
    #92
  43. GoSurfBoy

    GoSurfBoy Semi-Pro

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    Well, being a 'moron', 'sloshing sand' (high tide??), 'wildly erratic shots' and all, I signed with ProKennex on Thursday. The first 2 frames arrived just now, Euro-version 18x20.

    Gorgeous. Matt black.

    Since I'm headed to Europe to play, PK told me they'd forward more frames to me there from their Euro-distributor, as there's almost no stock of these frames in the US. Europe got both versions. US only got the 16 main. Given that this frame plays (well....to a moron like me) like a PT57A, I'm surprised.

    Will report as I play them. I did play the 325 for a bit - fantastic frame - but heavier than I like, so blind faith, as there were no 18-295's to demo, I committed. The 16 was so good that I'm sure the 18 will be as solid.

    These will be my first look/hit impressions. I may also ask PK for a 27.5 version, as I tried the new Pure Control 95+, was a bit disappointed by the frame, but did like the player's frame headsize in an extended length choice.

    By the way; Just 're-put' a stethoscope onto the KI_MASS. I don't know what you guys think you hear, but there is absolutely no sound coming from these sticks. Maybe it loosens up after some play, but I tried this with a couple of demos that tour guys had used (one guy with a BONE-KRUSHING forehand), and there was still nothing.

    Anyway.....Like much on this site, it's always good for a laugh!

    [​IMG][/URL]
     
    #93
  44. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    Congrats on getting signed by Pro Kennex. They have so few players - I follow Seppi only because he uses PK.

    The Pro Kennex that I have is the Ki5 PSE which is an older model and you can hear the material swishing back and forth if it's quiet and you're listening for it. If you're out on the court hitting balls, then I don't think that you can hear it.

    http://www.tennis-warehouse.com/ProKennex_Ionic_Ki_5_PSE/descpageRCPK-KI5PSN.html

    It may be that you don't hear the sound in the newer models.

    I was a bit surprised that the stiffness for one of the models was down at 57. I haven't kept up with the PK models since switching to Head (I like XL frames too). Something with 57 flex at about 27 3/4 to 28 inches with a 345 SW would be very nice (I'd add lead to get it to my specs).
     
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  45. racertempo

    racertempo Semi-Pro

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    Calling it stupid is just stupid, it is one of the very few technologies that actually helps with tennis elbow.
     
    #95
  46. movdqa

    movdqa Legend

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    I agree that it's a useful technology but I would be happier if it were generally easier to get more flexible frames - that is if the manufacturers would just dial the flex rating by about 5%.
     
    #96
  47. courtking

    courtking Semi-Pro

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    somehow I tend to agree with the op.. I am playing with the old trust PK Kinetic Pro 5G leather grip and leaded to 375g.. On certain whipping shots or serve, I felt like the racket slip off my hand but it's not.. it is the momentum that the Kinetic sand moving around the racket.. very weird and strange feel.. This might contribute to accuracy of the shot.. It's a great racket to customize and play with but yes, it feels kind of weird on certain shot that some extra force moving around..
     
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  48. Bud

    Bud Bionic Poster

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    Try an overgrip :p

    Just your imagination. You and the OP are the only two I've ever heard mention this about the frames.

    I owned a Q-tour and you can definitely heard the particles when you shake the frame. It sounds like fine sand.
     
    #98
  49. courtking

    courtking Semi-Pro

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    i used overgrip over the Pro Kennex calfskin leather that I pull off some old PK racket.. It is not slipping off my hand .. it just the feels something moving on certain shots.. it's not all the time but on certain shots that made you whip the buttcap a little bit fast, you can feel the momentum/force moving that I thought the buttcap is comming off.. but it's not.. I still play with it.. it's a great racket just tend to agree with the off on kinetic particles moving around inside the racket..
     
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  50. scotus

    scotus Legend

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    Do you realize that each Kinetic particle in the racquet can only move about an inch or so in distance? They are housed in plastic chambers located around the hoop (and in case of the Q series, in 4 corners) and inside the handle, and they are confined to these small stationary chambers.

    You guys make it sound like the particles move from the butt of the racquet all the way to the hoop. That's simply not the case.

    A person with normal sense of hearing should be able to hear the sound of the particles in a very quiet setting, or when you shake the racquet close to the ear.

    However, once you start playing, then you would be oblivious to the sound. I have never come across any doubles partner tell me that s/he hears those sounds from my PK racquets.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2014

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