Pros using vibration dampener

Discussion in 'Pros' Racquets and Gear' started by zorg, Mar 25, 2005.

  1. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    I was wondering why not most pros use a vibration dampener. This question is mainly to safin. Because i use the LM Prestige, i know how much it vibrates. Does the PC600 vibrate that much alos? If so, why doesn't he use one?
     
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  2. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    All vibration dampers do is changed the sound the racquet makes upon hitting, or so I hear. I tried using them a few years ago and didn't notice any difference at all, so now I'm back to plain strings. I use the HPS 6.1 btw.
     
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  3. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    lol, no. They change how much the racket handle vibrates
     
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  4. Lambsscroll

    Lambsscroll Professional

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    It has nothing to do with the handle although with some of these very light stiff racquets it may help a little. When the strings vibrate it makes a pinging sound and some guys dont like that sound so they put in a dampener. I have noticed a slight reduction in power when i use one but its hardly noticable.
     
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  5. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    They use basically the same thing / effect. They use power pads, or just a piece of leather in between the bottom mains in the throat area of the racket. I've tried it once and didn't like it.
     
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  6. Lambsscroll

    Lambsscroll Professional

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    Those power pads help to reduce string breakage. By lifting the string you reduce the sharp corner the string goes around.
     
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  7. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Hhahahahaha......WRONG!!! Venetian is correct. All the damper does is mute that pining sound that middle mains produce after the ball has made contact.

    Dampers does not effect how the racquet vibrates. I suggest reading "Tennis Science for Tennis Players" by Howard Brody. He is Physicists and was a Professor at University of Pennsylvania. He did many studies on the science of Tennis, and he addressed that the dampers are just merely to mute the main strings from vibrating to make that pinging noise that some or most people do don't care for.
     
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  8. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    Not with modern grommets which are already molded rounded. This was true back in the wood racquet days. Now they are used as a vibration dampener.
     
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  9. tennissavy

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    Most pros do not use dampeners. Some do though I believe it is to reduce the "ping" sound which the dampeners effectively accomplish. If the dampeners really reduced vibrations and alleviated arm strain, all the pros would use them since it is their livelihood on the line. I have used them but definitely did not notice any vibration reduction. I believe that it is the power of suggestion at work here- if you don't hear the "ping" the vibrations are eliminated. Unfortunately, it is not true. At least, I don't think it is true. You know what works for minimizing vibrations? Answer: Adding weight to your racquets which all the touring pros do.
     
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  10. bc-05

    bc-05 Semi-Pro

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    do powerpads work like a rubberband?
     
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  11. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    From my experience, powerpads does not mute the ping as much as an actual string damper. It does a little, but not as much. IMHO, it's more of a hassle making and putting those in than it is to put on a rubberband or any dampers on the center mains. Powerpads do look nicer though. My 2 cents.
     
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  12. aj_m2009

    aj_m2009 Professional

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    Then why did I have arm pain when my HH 6.2 didn't have a dampener on it but when it had one on it I didn't feel any pain? Please explain that to me.
     
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  13. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    You guys may be correct, but do any of you use the LM Prestige? If so, you can actually FEEL the vibrations when no rubber band/ vibration damper is on. Since you can FEEL it, it most likely does reduce vibrations. All of those who use the LM prestige withought adding weight, try it.
     
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  14. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    In your case, I can't explain. But, if curing an arm pain or tennis elbow for that matter by using a simple damper, then you should win the Nobel Peace Prize for such discovery.

    There are many factors that can contribute to arm pain and many factors to relieve it. But using a damper is very unlikely. Would you show me some scientific studies that dampers actually relieve arm pains?

    You do know that there tennis players with arm pains/tennis elbows that play with dampers right?

    Again, I recommend reading the book by Brody.
     
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  15. bc-05

    bc-05 Semi-Pro

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    i think the pinging noise what makes him feel as if it vibrates.. to be honest if it was me.. when i play without the rubberbands.. i always felt like as if the tension becomes lower... and the annoying noise oughhh.. hate it.. oh yeah dude.. now the way i tie my knot is the normal way (like how u do it).. just to let u know.. its as effective anyway.. about the powerpads what are they for then? if they dont dampen as much as the dampener?
     
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  16. aj_m2009

    aj_m2009 Professional

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    No thanks, I have all of the proof that I need. And you can choose to believe me or not, it doesn't matter to me, all I know is it had something to do with it. And if you want me to I will go out the next time I play tennis and take of the rubberband and play without it and see if I have any pain(**note that I do use a different racket than that now but I believe it is actually stiffer than the HH). And notice you said it was unlikely that a dampener would "cure" it, you didn't say it was impossible.
     
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  17. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Back in the days of wooden racquets the pads were means of damping the string vibration to reduce the pings. The actual dampers we have now came much later. I'm not sure when.

    I think you are right about "the pinging noise that makes one to believe they feel the whole racquet is vibrating". Its all in the head. IMHO.
     
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  18. aj_m2009

    aj_m2009 Professional

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    I knew you would say that sooner or later. I have an idea, you go demo a HH 6.2 OS and play with it for a few days without a dampener and see if you get any pain, then put a dampener(preferably the Wilson US Open dampener because that is what I used)and see if it doesn't go away. If it doesn't go away or you get no pain in the first place then I will agree with you and say it is all in the head.
     
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  19. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    gmlasam, It is very possible that the vibrations from the strings may cause injury / pain and I can explain as this is an engineering nightmare. Car (or any structure for that matter) manufacturers go through great lengths to make sure that any vibrations occur are dampened or do not cause any structure to resonate, this will easily loosen bolts up and cause quality problems. The same can occur with a tennis racquet, especially wood racquets. If you were to misshit and cause the string bed to vibrate at the woods natural frequecy.... what happens is constructive interference of those small vibrations which become very large vibrations in the racquet head. That energy gets transferred to the racquet handle and transferred to your hand.... arm.... shoulder where it is absorbed = pain.
     
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  20. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    yes, but the damper in question, the piece of rubber that goes between the two center mains, is not enough to dampenen the whole string bed. So how does that small piece of damper can actually make such dramatic effect as relieveing arm pain? That damper is was not designed or intended as a shock absorber. It is a noise reducer.
     
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  21. aj_m2009

    aj_m2009 Professional

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    Do you have proof to back up this claim?
     
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  22. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    Gmlasam, it takes energy to make noise which in this case is friction and possibly even portions of the racquet resonating. In order to reduce that noise you have to absorb some of that energy, which in this case is the high frequency vibrations of the string bed. Its no different than having a rubber engine mount, mount something that vibrates like an engine on a solid piece of metal and see if you can commute to the grocery store without a headache. A small piece of ruber is all that it takes to aborb the high frequency vibrations which would otherwise resonate the racquet head causing excessive shock.
     
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  23. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    aj_m2009,

    I've been playing tennis for over 20 years, started playing when I was 8, and have come across many racquets, flexible and very stiff. The stiffest is the PS 6.1. There was a period where I did not play with any damper, 4 years in fact and have not encountered any arm pains or tennis elbow, with or without dampers. I play a POG which many consider to be very stiff, and in fact it is the racquet I learned how to play tennis on.

    I can demo the HH 6.2 at my local pro shop, but the demo is only for a day, not enough time to actually replicate your claim.

    Why don't you play with your HH 6.2 without the damper and see if you still have the pain. I highly doubt the damper has anything to do with reducing your arm pain though.
     
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  24. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Logically, how does a small piece of rubber attached on the two center mains absorb the shock of the entire stringbed, all 14, 16, or 18 mains, and 19 or 20 crosses?
     
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  25. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    Here is an abstract on a scientific study on such subject. The proof

    Look HERE

    Here is the conclusion of the study:
     
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  26. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    Hmm, i have a simple way to prive it. Look at a Wilson pre-strung racket. THey have vibration dampeners, but on them they say SHOCK ABSORBERS. which means they absord SHOCK. It is just a black piece of rubber, like a vib dampener. Here is such a racket :
    http://www.sportsunlimitedinc.com/gradslamracket.html
     
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  27. gmlasam

    gmlasam Hall of Fame

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    I'm done with this subject. Please read "Tennis Science for Tennis Players" by Howard Brody as it is very informative and "REFUTES" many of the myths found in this messageboard. Also, read that study I linked HERE regarding the dampers. I'm done.
     
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  28. Venetian

    Venetian Professional

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    Just because it says SHOCK ABSORBER doesn't mean it is one. Look at the little cardboard cover on that Wal-Mart racquet and note the picture of Federer volleying with that same $20 racquet painted in his hands. Do you think Roger really uses it just because the picture shows him with it?

    The dude on that one actually appears to be Pete or Dent.

    Heck, I could print SHOCK ABSORBER on a bunch of t-shirts and sell them. Does that mean those t-shirts absorb racquet vibrations?
     
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  29. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    It's Dent :-O
     
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  30. JoostT

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    uuut5u5uyiiiiijyjjjjhjhhmmhbmbm dkkcc k v kdekdekekkkk

    :arrow: :| :mad:
     
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  31. POGO

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    Nice!!!!!!!! Great find gmlasam. I've always thought the dampers were to reduce arm shock, but after reading your points I was wrong. I guess it is all in the head as you put it, and that link you provided really proofed it.

    So that book you highly recommend is that good huh? I'll go check it out.
     
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  32. bc-05

    bc-05 Semi-Pro

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    actually come to think about it.. it actually dampens vibration.. im not lying.. it does.. maybe not the shock that will effect ur arm.. but it affects the vibration.. like when i hit without it feels like the racquet is vibrating.. a bit im talking about a little.. it might be vibration from the sound.. that ping what makes it feel like it vibrates other than that trust me it doesnt do nothing.. if ur talkin about arm pain.. i doubt it will affect that much.. but as for dampening the whole string bed.. it eliminates at like 20-30% though.. i mean think about it the strings are connected to each other therefore even if u only dampen the middle 2 middle 2 connects to the whole string bed.. eventhough its only little man it does affect the whole string bed.. but i agree with u.. it wouldnt do anything to help ur arm.. it just kills the annoyingness.. but ill tell u what i feel though.. does putting rubberband increase the tension? coz it feels more dead when u put rubberband.. or once again its the pinging noise?
     
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  33. POGO

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    bc-05,

    How did you come up with the damper damping the whole stringbed like 20-30%? That is alot. Is that your estimate or you actually have some information about that? It would nice if you can post that info to go against the link gmlasam provided.

    It seems like the post and the info gmlasam provided seems to be most compeling, specially the link he provided. Did you happen to read that link?

    It is pretty interesting read.
     
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  34. equinox

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    Pains all in your mind.
     
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  35. fedex27

    fedex27 Professional

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    i hate vibration so much that i use powerpads, rubber bands on everystring on the bottom and the side mains and the top. It may look stupid but it really helps

    really all the dampender does is get rid of the noise it really matters on the racquet and the strings if they make the ping or not
     
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  36. bc-05

    bc-05 Semi-Pro

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    ohh yeah.. i read it on the packet of the wilson dampener.. it said dampens upto 25% vibration.. and from my experience rubberband kills more pinging noise than these wilson dampener so if theyre 25% then rubberband should be in the area.. but thats just what the packet says though.. i dunno if its true or not.. sorry i didnt reference.. my bad
     
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  37. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    You realize ppl that noice is made from vibrations. So you can make the naoice without the racket vibrating. THat is why when it doesn't vibrate, via dampener, less sound.
     
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  38. zorg

    zorg Professional

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    Wow, i really misspelled some stuff in that last post. Let me do that over. You realize ppl that noise is made from vibrations. So you cannot make the noise without the racket vibrating. That is why when it doesn't vibrate, via dampener, less sound.
     
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  39. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    I don't mean to counter anyones arguments here just want to add an observation.

    That scientic "study" provided zero evidence in their own conclusions. There are many "studies" like this who conclude with an opinion. In order for it to be a valid study, than test cases need to be set up along with measurements. There were no test cases, there were no measurements. Just an opinion. So how can their tests be validated?

    As for shock dampeners... Think about how it is like to drive your car with stiff shocks... This is no different than what a dampener does to the string bed, yes it does dampen the energy that would otherwise be transfered through the handle/grip and through your arm / body.
     
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  40. POGO

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    I think in fairness the link is an "abstract" it is a condensed version of the actual study. Abstracts are not as detailed, but a summary of the actual study. I went back to the link and found the site to be valid, they contain professional journals that are commonly required for college research papers for references.

    I found also a different study on the subject that claim what gmlasam has already stated.

     
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  41. POGO

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    alan-n,

    This topic is becoming very interesting. Would you mind finding some studies that counter these findings?
     
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  42. Datacipher

    Datacipher Banned

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    LOL. Poor gmlasam! I thought the myth of the "dampers" had been universally debunked 15 years ago! I'd certainly be interested in opposing finding from studies, but I doubt you'll find any as I have never seen any to date. In fact every tennis authority I know of, acknowledges that dampers have little or no effect on frame vibration.
     
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  43. mido

    mido Rookie

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    I think TW Learning Center clarifies that issue perfectly:
    "Rubber string dampers reduce string vibration only - they have no effect on frame shock or vibration".

    Vibration (Frame): The lingering, low-frequency oscillation of the racquet after ball contact that players feel. Generally, more flexible racquets produce greater low-level vibration than stiffer frames. Often confused with string vibration, frame vibration has a shorter duration and cannot be reduced using small, rubberized string vibration dampers. Some handle systems are effective at reducing frame vibration. Also, hitting the Node area of the sweetspot produces the least amount of frame vibration. Post-production methods for reducing frame vibration include adding weight and stringing at mid-range. String vibration dampers will not reduce frame vibration.

    Damping (or Dampening): Generally refers to vibration and/or shock damping. Handle systems, such as Prince's Air+ Comfort Handle, Wilson's Triad Technology with Iso.Zorb and Head's ShockStop are designed to reduce frame shock and vibration before they reach the player's hand. Weight is also effective in decreasing shock and vibration. Rubber string dampers reduce string vibration only - they have no effect on frame shock or vibration (it's simple physics - a 2 gram string damper versus a 250-350 gram racquet striking a 60 gram ball...).

    Shock (frame): Initial, high-amplitude oscillation (jarring) of the racquet during or immediately after ball contact. Often confused with frame vibration, frame shock is generally believed to contribute more to wrist, elbow and/or shoulder injuries than vibration. Generally, a smaller, stiffer, lighter racquet strung at high tension will produce more shock than a larger, flexible, lightweight frame strung loosely. Off-center hits also increase the amount of shock transmitted to the hand and arm. In fact, if you can hit the Center of Percussion (COP) area of the sweetspot each time, your shots will be shock-free. Certain handle systems (for example, Prince's Air+ Comfort Handle and Head's ShockStop) are effective in reducing shock before it reaches the hand. Additionally, Wilson's Triad Technology and Pro Kennex's Kinetic System Technology are designed to absorb frame shock. After-market methods of reducing frame shock include adding weight to the frame, lowering string tension, using a thinner gauge string and increasing grip size (to a point) to reduce torque. String vibration dampers are ineffective at reducing or absorbing frame shock.
     
    #43
  44. POGO

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    mido,

    thanks for that info. I didn't realize TW has such information already. This pretty much concludes this whole subject.

    Gmlasam is right after all.

    Thanks gmlasam for your info.
     
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  45. equinox

    equinox Hall of Fame

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    Guys!, String dampeners don't reduce shock or vibration travelling from racquet to your arm.

    All they do is stop the strings vibrating and in the process reduce the ping noise that some people find annoying.
     
    #45
  46. POGO

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    I agree with that now, but for some reason aj_m2009 and alan-n seem to believe otherwise.
     
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  47. alan-n

    alan-n Professional

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    When you play a game based on how the tool (racquet) feels... Sometimes science can conclude one thing and reality can conclude another. For example, a 5% difference in tension and resiliency would be concluded to be "neglible". On the court with a competant player that 5% difference could easily translate into the ball sailing 2ft long. So much for "neglible" difference. Science is more often wrong than you think..... And that is the difference between Engineering and Science. Lab and Real World. Theory and Reality.

    I would like to see a a better study done. The bottom line and reality is this: If cushioned grips absorb a perceivable amount of frame shock. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO REASON that a piece of rubber on the frame string bed wouldn't. The energy would be transfered and absorbed just the same, just at a lesser amount... It may be concluded that 2% (or whatever) is neglible by a non tennis playing scientist, but can my be noticable to the player.
     
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  48. POGO

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    alan-n,

    Interesting points, but would you find and post some studies or any evidence to support your argument? All you have stated so far are from your "personal opinions". I would like to see some studies to support your opinion on this.

    So far you and ajm_2009 are the minority here.

    I think at this point you are like trying to prove planet Earth is still flat, which is pretty much a moot point.
     
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  49. matchpoints

    matchpoints Professional

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    I nominate alan-n to do the study ;)
     
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  50. racingdad23

    racingdad23 Semi-Pro

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    Try this.....put in earplugs. Hit without dampener, then hit with dampener. If sound is the contributing factor then remove it and rely on your other senses to determine if there is a difference.

    In racing you would be surprised just exactly what you can hear and feel when you cancel out the noise factor.

    This simple experiment may (or may not) help determine if its the harmonic vibration or dynamic vibration that is softened by string dampeners??
     
    #50

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