PS 6.0 too demanding, advice needed?

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by w00gy, Aug 15, 2006.

  1. w00gy

    w00gy Rookie

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    Hi all,

    A year ago i started with a PD then quickly switched to a PS 6.0. The PD was too stiff thus it gave me a mild TE. Switching was the best thing ever. No more pain, no more holding back. I was able to swing as long, loopy and hard as i wanted without overhitting. I was in wonderland.

    Now a year later. i'm a selfraterd 2.5 / 3.0. My movie will be up soon as i will play again thursday. Recently I noticed that other players playing as long as i've been ( 1-2 years) are pushing me around the court. I can recover due to "decent" footwork but i don't get enough juice (depth) to push back. What i do get, are tremendous angles combined with weird drops. This gives me the federer like miracle shot sometimes but ofcourse they are only seldom intentionally played.

    I play with one hand on the FH and the BH. Long arm movement and followthrough combined with lazy kneebends and a decent body rotation.
    I'm very strong and heavy ( 6"1, 205, 24 y) so that's why i don't want a "Cannonball" tweener like a babolat.

    Maybe i'm getting lazy but i actually want a racquet with a litte more comfort. I want to trim down on my swing speed to get a more relaxed rhythm. When i saw the movie, it was my first 2 min warming up, i noticed my arm going like crazy in comparison to the rest of my body. I want my arm and body 'n sync. ( oops, is that the name of a boyband:oops:)


    I'll keep the PS 6.0 as a trainer but i want a litte more, not too much, pop combined with a smooth/soft feel.

    My current setup:

    • Racquet: Wilson Pro Staff 6.0 85"
    • String: Wilson sensation string @ 55 lbs/ 25 kg
    • Grip: Wilson leather grip with tournagrip overgrip. It was upped one size to L5 with Heatshrinksleeve
    • Weight: 381 grams :eek:


    Any advice plz? ( a little lighter is ok, it's balance is very weird due to the addition of the heatshrinksleeve so it swings like a charm)



    thnx

    PS: Movie will be posted later today, i'm @ university now.
     
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  2. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    You've gone from one extreme to another. There are many fine racquets that fall in the middle. Can you share why you chose to use the ps85 please? What happened to you is typical of what happens to most who use a far too demanding frame for their skillset.....people pass them by who have chosen something appropriate to swing.
     
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  3. vkartikv

    vkartikv Hall of Fame

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    Suggestions:

    1. You discard the ps 85 because you are only a 2.5-3.0. Find something in the midplus range instead, like the radical or warrior that offers comfort but still lets you take a decently long swing without overhitting.
    2. Stick with the PS 85 but change the string tensions to where you feel comfortable about it.

    For a big guy with long strokes, I don't understand how you don't get depth on your shots, even with the PS 85
     
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  4. basil J

    basil J Hall of Fame

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    at a 2.5-3.0 level the PS 6.085 may be too demanding, but at your height and weight, you should be able to handle it IMO. My advice is that if you have a chance to video your strokes, review them and break them down.
    Check the following:
    Grip
    Raquet preperation
    Follow through
    Footwork.
    I know it sounds mechanical, but very often, when you can see what you are doing, you can often remedy a situation quicker than by just listening to friends or even a pro.
    Are you taking any lessons? If not you may want to find a good teaching pro, let him or her know the what type of style you wish to play (I.E. base liner, all courter, serve & volleyer, counter puncher) and get a few things to work on. Part of the beauty of this sport is the journey you take to become a good player. Besides skiing, I can't think of another sport where so many different people with different levels of fitness and body types can excel.
    remember 20 years ago, everybody played with 14 oz wood frames, so if the PS feels good in hand and comfortable to swing, it may be mechanics.
    Good luck.
     
    #4
  5. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    One of the many myths circulated around this forum is that people think that just because someone has physical size, they can swing a heavy demanding frame fast enough. I've taught Div1 linebackers and lineman who could not swing 11ozs fast enough to cause any damage and taught scrawny juniors who could smoke the ball with 12 ozs..it's about the technique. the other issues is the sweetspot size...lesser players arent exctly precision ball strikers and thats what it takes to make a frame like the ps85 work.

    another myth perpetuated on this forum is that everyone used 14oz frames back in the day..thats just flat out wrong. junior racquets were made out of wood and weighed much less and were shorter and much more maneuveurable, and if you cut an inch off a maxply fort it because much easier to swing. additionally the options were much less back then. people who actually played tennis during those times actually know about stuff like this
     
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  6. Kevo

    Kevo Hall of Fame

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    I agree with Mojo and Basil. If you are just missing slightly on technique, and that is preventing you from raising your level of play, a few lessons might be in order. On the other hand, it could just be that the PS 85 won't work for you and you would be better off with something a little lighter and bigger. If I were in your shoes it would be a matter of how much effort I wanted to put into the game. If you're willing to work, try the lessons. If you'd rather have more fun and ease your way up the levels, try a bigger lighter frame. Some demos of stuff around 100" and 11oz. would probably be where I would start.
     
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  7. uxnaitoahz

    uxnaitoahz Rookie

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    I don't think it is suitable for 2.5 - 3.0 players to use the PS85. Heck, I am a 4.5 and I admit it, I am not good enough for that racquet. I suggest that you develop your game more. Once you reach somewhere around 4.0, you can try your PS85 again, but for now I'd say go demo racquets and find something comfortable and control-oriented yet not too demanding.
     
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  8. FH2FH

    FH2FH Professional

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    Do a racquet search here http://www.racquetfinder.com/ for something lighter and slightly more powerful. I agree with the 11oz -ish range and the 98-100 sq/in head. Keep the stiffness below 65 and you'll be able to tweak the power with tension and string type/gauge.

    I use a 300G MP and Head i.Radical MP. These are good lighter, semi-low power racquets. Unfortunately TW isn't selling them now...?? If you need more power you can always add tape to the head or use some thin, spongy string. With that PS you're lugging around a lot of weight for a 2.5/3.0 who's not gonna have excellent timing/preparation.

    You can calculate the power of your racquet by multiplying the:
    headsize (sq/in) * stiffness * swingweight

    For example:
    PS 6.0 85 = 1845
    300G= 1881
    iRad=1863

    This will give you a general quideline of what you need (in terms of power). A difference in "50" is noticeable to me; 200+ would be dramatic.

    ** Keep in mind swingspeed (slower with a heavier racquet) and string type/tension/gauge will also affect power.
     
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  9. w00gy

    w00gy Rookie

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    Take a look at this boys 'n girls.

    http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=1078067#post1078067

    Heft, weight, swingweight or whatever you call it is no problem because the balance has changed. Maybe after 2,5 hrs of playing and sprinting it feels a bit sluggish but certainly not in a 3 set match.

    On the run, power of my PS just seems a little low and that's when you want the racquet to some work for you. That's why I'm thinking about switching raquets.

    I have to add i only recently got into tactics because i did not feel confident enough last year. I've only been playing a year and i really want to start counterpunching my opponents when driven to the edge of the court and take control of the rally. This I can't do with the low power of the ps. Thus i get wacked every time because my strokes lack in depth and pace.

    If i only i could execute a more controlled stroke and get good depth and pace...... "sigh"

    Hope you enjoy this!
     
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  10. FH2FH

    FH2FH Professional

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    If the weight isn't a problem and you're comfortable with that racquet you can change the strings, drop the tension, go with a higher gauge, add lead strips. What are you stringing it at now? What strings are you using? Strings DO make a big difference.

    I have not seen your video yet b/c my network here sucks... : (
     
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  11. w00gy

    w00gy Rookie

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    I'm stringing @ 55 lbs with wilson sensation string. Stringing any lower is not an option. I have done this before. My normal strokes fly and my strokes in the run will fall deep. This means i would be more prone to making faults in a casual rally than i'm with this setup.

    The video is not me playing fed so you're not missing out that much ;)
     
    #11
  12. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    Woogy if you want to really improve you must take lessons and a lot of drills. ALOT of players i know have very bad habits which will last their lifetime all because they diddnt learn from a pro..
     
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  13. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    I have a couple of PS 85s. Wilson Sensation is not a string I would put in them -- it's really quite a dull, almost dead-feeling, string, imo. There are many strings that would provide you with a much more lively stringbed response AND give you better spin and control, even if you stayed at 55 lbs. NRG2 and X-One are two that come to mind. (Even PSG Original would play more lively, I reckon.)

    That said, taking some lessons from a good pro would probably be money well spent at this stage in your tennis "career".

    Regarding a different racquet, perhaps your pro could make some suggestions after he has seen you hit. Be sure to demo, demo, demo -- as much as you can before you buy.

    Good luck.
     
    #13
  14. w00gy

    w00gy Rookie

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    Thanx,

    I'm demoing some older model of the nCode nVision an a head t.i. heat. Don't know what to expect. I'm hitting the court again tommorrow.

    After that 'm going back to my old shop. I've moved to the capitol of hollan, Amsterdam, yet there is nog specialty shop to be found anywhere near here!! :S
    Don't even have the nSix-One models nor a current dunlop nor a current head nor Folkl nor.....

    About the string. Hated it from the first minute of play. Still waiting for it to break............. sigh ( I'm not rich enough to have them cut out)
     
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  15. Starwind

    Starwind Rookie

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    Unless you are a college or pro player, I don't think you should use the 6.0. It's such a ridiculously demanding racquet.
     
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  16. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    A larger head racquet can be demanding to, especially for control and accuracy.
     
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  17. Redflea

    Redflea Hall of Fame

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    You should not be using a PS 6.0 85...makes no sense at your level, other than for fun. I wouldn't even use it for "training" purposes if I were you.

    Your game will progress faster and you will benefit more from using a racquet more appropriate to your experience and skillset. 100 or so head size, weight that you can swing well for three full sets, power level appropriate to your swing style/strength.

    There are a lot of great racquets that you could use, and wouldn't be anywhere near as demanding to do well with as your current stick. If you like a flexy feel, look for mid-plus (98-105) head sizes with flex numbers in the lower to mid 60's. I guarantee you will be a happier camper after the switch and will see improved results.
     
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  18. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Well if you could swing the PD ok as you posted, then the PS 85 should not be a problem. Contrary to what others might say the PD has a heavier swingweight (342) than the PS 85 (329). The problem is most likely your technique, and mechanics. A tweener racquet with a larger "sweetspot" may alleviate this temporarily.
     
    #18
  19. Redflea

    Redflea Hall of Fame

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    The head size is the most significant issue that needs correction...an 85 vs. 100 is night-and-day difference. Heck, a 90 vs. 98 has a significant affect, I know, I just switched from my RDX Mid 90 (a very forgiving mid) to a Dunlop 98 and that difference is very noticeable to me in all aspects of my game.

    He could end up w/the same swingweight, no big deal if he can handle it. He should not stay w/the 85 head size...
     
    #19
  20. Janne

    Janne Semi-Pro

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    Is there a big difference in a 85 and a 90 si. head size and a 90 to 95 si. head size regarding sweetspot?
     
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  21. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    most people have the ability to look up the swingweights of racquets. actually the technique required to make an obsolete old frame like the ps85 work is also obsolete old technique thus making this old obsolete frame even more obsolete. you are also incorrect that having a larger sweetspot...one that a person car reliably hit... is only a temporary fix.
     
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  22. Redflea

    Redflea Hall of Fame

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    Janne...Depends on the racquets, as sweetspot size varies by size and construction/materials, etc. The overall "friendliness factors" of a racquet include sweetspot size, how they handle off-center shots, whether the sweet spot is centered or biased towards 12 or 6, etc.

    Two personal "fer instances:" My experience with the PS 6.0 85 and the Yonex RDX Mid 90 was that the PS 6.0 85 was much more challenging than the RDX. I found less difference between the RDX Mid 90 and the PS 6.0 95.
     
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  23. w00gy

    w00gy Rookie

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    Hi all,

    i've played again today and tested 2 frames. First was an nVision. Not like the one on TW site but different. Probably recreational. This frame was one big dissapointment. I thought I would get more power but i didn't. My server were slower, groundstrokes, slices, topspin, flat, you name it. everything was less. Touch was ok but I quickly found myself hitting looping topspin balls to get any type of depth. Also stability was quistionable on offcenter hits.

    Then tested a 2nd racquet. a Head t.i heat ( has a stabilizing bar in the throat). This one hit fairly nice feelings wise but also gave me less speed and heavy balls. With this racquet i also quickly noticed the pure lack of mass behind the ball.

    Of course finally I picked up my PS and everything fell in to place again. There was some doubt but now it's official: "MORE WEIGHT MATTERS TO ME".

    Yes it's heavy, yes it's low powered but it did wonders on my strokes. I was consistently hitting heavy balls again. Touch was ok. My game was back.

    I've brought the 2 demo's back to the big retailer and went to the specialty shop( wilson only:rolleyes: ) near the club i play at. They told me to test the nBlade, nPro and nTour the next time I'm playing. They were closest to the PS and were also "Player/match" frames. I held all 3 of them, twisted and swung a litte. The nPro and nTour felt pretty comfy as a first impression. nBlade just felt real heavy......

    I'll keep you informed in the next week
     
    #23
  24. neo

    neo Banned

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    So, you think Sampras's technique is obsolete? How about Federer's? Whatever frame he is using now he used PS85 just four years ago.
     
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  25. FH2FH

    FH2FH Professional

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    I agree with most others about the headsize. In your original post you wanted more power. It won't hurt to have more juice from your racquet. Maybe the mistakes we've made so far is asking you to get a lighter racquet. If you like the weight (stability, bigger sweetspot, etc), then you need a bigger headsize. Or you can add lead to the head of your frame. Try a Prince Original Graphite Oversized or some of the other "heavy" racquets over the 12+ oz range. Some people also like the Kinetic G series racquets for tennis elbow, etc.
     
    #25
  26. NoBadMojo

    NoBadMojo G.O.A.T.

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    sampras is retired and the game has changed even since he has left not so long ago and i suggest that none of us here at the forum are quite as good as federer, as no one on the pro tour is even as good as federer. so if people think they are better than federer by using a frame even more demanding than what federer uses, well then.....awwww nevermind
     
    #26
  27. Keifers

    Keifers Legend

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    If I can answer your question in terms of how often mishits occur...

    My experience has been that 90" frames (such as PS Tour 90, RDX 500 Mid) are no different in terms of number of mishits than 95" or larger racquets (such as PS 6.0 95, n6.1 95, MW 200G, PK Type R, and many others).

    Wrt 85", the following has been my experience (and I make no claims that anyone else will have the same):

    Last year, I demoed the 6.0 85 from TW and loved everything about it except that I was framing a lot of shots, especially on returns of serve. I was disappointed; I sent the demo back and put the 85 out of my mind.

    This year, I gave the 85 another go and, remarkably, the number of times I mishit with it was dramatically lower, in fact, not noticeably different from using 90+" frames. Why? I can't really say. Perhaps (probably?) I'm seeing the ball better, with more focus, whatever...

    I can say that I'm having a really good time playing with the 85. For me, it's not for every day because its weight and swingweight are definitely on the high side. But when I can wield it well, playing with it is immensely satisfying -- I hit shots that I've never hit with any other racquet. The translation from my intention on any given shot to the reality of where and how the ball goes is very direct indeed. It's a blast.
     
    #27
  28. Janne

    Janne Semi-Pro

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    Thanks for the answer.
     
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  29. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    NBM, just out of curiosity, and I don't mean any disrespect, but WHY exactly do you think technique is for the PS85 is out of date? More important, what do you think makes "modern" technique superior to "obsolete" technique.

    You go on a lot about how superior modern racquets are, but that hasn't been my experience.

    I played tennis from 1980-1990 and quit. I started with a Jack Kramer Pro Staff and switched to the Ultra 2 in 84 when Wislon stopped making wood racquets. I played most of juniors and all of college witht the Ultra 2. After college, burnt out and living in New York and not knowing any tennis players, I quit.

    I started playing again 2 years ago and looked for a new frame, finally settling on the nCode 6.1 Tour 90. I was mostly pretty happy with it. Then last month, for kicks more than anything, I bought an Ultra 2 off of ****. From the moment I first hit with it, I remember what I had missed with the Tour 90. I'm loving playing with the Ultra 2 so much I'm looking for another one.

    As for technique, I feel that I can do most of the things I could do with the Tour 90. I can still whip the racquet head for topspin. Heck, I can do that with wood racquets too. I find the Ultra 2 gives my backhand more pop and I have more control.

    Just so you know, when I first started playing again I tried a few other racquets, like the n6.1 95, the Hammer 98, the Wilson Hammer Skunk. I HATED the newer and bigger racquets. It felt like I had no control. Holding lighter racquets makes me feel like I'm swinging air and that I have no feedback from the racquet or control over the shots.

    I've also hit with a Babolat PD and a Prince Diablo. Felt the same way about those racquets.

    You advocate changing your technique for the newer racquets; WHY? I don't see any advantage to "new" technique over "old" technique. I especially don't understand why players have been encouraged to change their playing style to meet new racquets instead of having the manufacturers make racquets that conform to how the game can be played with less risk of injury. But I guess that's just me.
     
    #29
  30. warreng

    warreng New User

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    If I could make a suggestion or even if anyone else can provide feedback on this?

    Would a Prostaff Classic 6.1 95 be less demanding than the PS 6.0 85? What about the current nSix-One?

    Maybe you could give those racquets a whirl. I own a PSC 6.1 and although it's pretty hefty, I hit solid groundstrokes with it...
     
    #30
  31. anirut

    anirut Legend

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    Arafel, I'm not NMBJ, but I think the reason NBMJ suggested with "going modern" is because ...

    Today's comepetitive game has changed alot. If you're playing competitive tennis and don't have the genius of Fed, playing against the younger generation, then you'll probably know what I mean.

    If you're not playing to earn your meal, then anything should work fine. And, for the general public, lighter, big-headed rackets are easier to play and grow with. Of course, once someone passes a certain learning curve, he/she will know what kind of racket would be best for one's style.

    We're proabably in the same age group. I also use old school strokes, heavy, small-headed rackets. I enjoy these rackets more than the modern ones too. But when I "try" to play with very "well-trained" young guys, I'm dead. Yes, I did try turning my body-clock back 20 years to play with them, with all that speed and power of the past, I could last for only about 20 minutes.

    Hope I made some sense here.
     
    #31
  32. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    I wonder if a one handed backhand would be a obsolete stroke too? Tell that to the worlds number1 and that his racquet is also obsolete. lol
     
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  33. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    Thats what he uses, plain and simple.
     
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  34. a guy

    a guy Banned

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    You should go for a racket with a larger headsize so you can get your strokes together and gain some confidence. I bet all these people who are "pushing you around" are using these types of rackets :p

    I think the Pro staff range is for more intermediate players and they'll punish bad technique as such so you need some thing more forgiving to compliment your strokes.
     
    #34
  35. Ultra2HolyGrail

    Ultra2HolyGrail Hall of Fame

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    A larger racquet wont help with strokes and technique or confidence. Only lessons and drills and correction from a pro is the only way to improve.
     
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  36. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    Well, I play in Open-level tournaments here against women 16-20 years my junior. I don't find that using a smaller, heavier racquet hurts my game against them at all. In fact, since switching back to the Ultra 2, I find that I have more confidence than at any time since I started playing again.

    What hurts me is the fact that I just can't run as much as I used to without getting tired. I think there is a difference between racquet arm fatigue, which I've never experience, even playing an occasional 5 set match for practice, vs. winded fatigue, which I do experience.
     
    #36
  37. Arafel

    Arafel Professional

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    Love your User ID!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  38. Redflea

    Redflea Hall of Fame

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    Absolutely it will...put the right racquet in a person's hand (weight/SW, head size, flex, grip size, etc.) and their ability to execute the proper technique, their results, and their confidence will all be significantly better than if they hit/take lessons w/one that is too heavy, too small head size, etc.

    I wouldn't teach my son to drive in my Ferrari, too much car for a beginner. He'll learn in the minivan!
     
    #38
  39. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thanks, I couldn't have said it better myself. NBMJ is just full of hot air. Without proper technique I don't care how big, light, or "improved" the racquet is. Bottom line, you have to meet the ball square. One thing that has not changed is the racquet face has to meet the ball square, regardless of technology or "new technique".
     
    #39
  40. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Nicely put.
     
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  41. a guy

    a guy Banned

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    Exactly right. Also enjoying tennis and getting better results breeds confidence.
     
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  42. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

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    Thanks for calling the old racquets Ferraris, and new ones Mini Vans.
     
    #42
  43. calabi12

    calabi12 New User

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    Some of the earlier advice you got was solid. This old fashioned heavy racquet may not be the best for you right now. It is still a very good racquet but I suggest you wait till you are about 3.5 or 4.0.

    For now, find a racquet approximately 10.5 to 11.5 oz strung and preferably head light. Avoid very stiff racquets. There are lots of excellent racquets in this range.

    Also, as suggested by some people over here, invest in some coaching. You can save money by taking a few lessons focused on correcting and "perfecting" your strokes, and then use a machine and/or a hitting partner to grove in your new strokes. Later on you can go back to the coach for some finer tuning.

    Once your mechanics are pretty good, you can go back and try the 12.0 oz and over racquets.

    If you still feel like you need that heft right now, I suggest you try the Flexpoint Radical Tour or Prestige. They are some of the "lightest" 12.0 oz racquets I have used and are both modern and very good. Lots of heft. They feel light probably because they are so head light.

    My 2 cents.
     
    #43
  44. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2004
    Messages:
    43,331
    Well, I'm not sure the minivan is the easiest to thing to learn how to drive on, either. Imagine trying to learn how to parallel park for the first time in something as big as a minivan! :eek: I know I for one would have failed the driving test. ;) LOL Probably something like a Honda Civic would be much easier. :D Same with racquets, I don't think one needs to start off with the biggest and/or lightest racquet on the shelf. Something more reasonable could work, too.
     
    #44
  45. neo

    neo Banned

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2006
    Messages:
    263
    You appear to be confused, so I will take you through this step by step:

    1. You said obsolete frame (PS85) requires obsolete technique.
    2. I asked you if you think Federer has obsolete technique since he used that frame at least until quite recently.

    Can you answer that question? And please consider that true but irrelevant statement like "none of us here at the forum are quite as good as federer" is not an answer to the question.
     
    #45
  46. Redflea

    Redflea Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2004
    Messages:
    3,852
    Heh heh...

    I learned in a Volkswagon Van...four speed shift w/the impossible-to-figure-out-what-gear-you-are-in shift-linkage! So if my son can't learn in our modern, automatic, "drives like a car" minivan, then HE'LL NEVER DRIVE!! ;)
     
    #46
  47. Redflea

    Redflea Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2004
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    3,852
    Actually, the DNX Mid (just released) is a Ferrari as well, under my analogy. :)

    I like the old and the new equally - my only set-in-stone bias is that Root Beer floats are the greatest dessert ever created, period.
     
    #47
  48. drakulie

    drakulie Talk Tennis Guru

    Joined:
    May 3, 2004
    Messages:
    24,466
    Location:
    FT. Lauderdale, Florida
    Too funny!
     
    #48
  49. newnuse

    newnuse Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    986
    Yeah what the hell is this new technique people talk about. The vast majority of people I see do not hit like Nadal.

    Some people hit with lots of spin, some hit flatter, some hit with a close stance, some hit with a more open stance...that has always been the case.

    What the he## is an obosolete technique??? Is there a new rule put out by the USTA banning certain strokes I don't know about????
     
    #49
  50. newnuse

    newnuse Professional

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2005
    Messages:
    986
    Nice posts Arafel,

    The racket you enjoy playing with the most will yield the best results for you. You will enjoy playing more, you will be more motivated to go out and play.

    You are best at what you enjoying doing right?

    As for picking up a few more Ultra2... those are tough to come by. Good luck with the hunt. How do you like the ProStaff 85? You can still buy those new.
     
    #50

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