Question for Will Hamilton (& others who promote laid back wrist on forehand contact)

Discussion in 'Tennis Tips/Instruction' started by spacediver, Sep 3, 2011.

  1. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,354
    See Agassi http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXWks8yvRJQ&feature=relmfu look at 1-2 seconds in, 22-23 seconds in, 41-42 seconds in. First thing leading arm back is his elbow. Hands and racket head still between shoulders.

    See Fed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCm6OIjbPr4&feature=relmfu
    at 4-5 seconds, 17-18 seconds, 26-27 seconds elbow is leading back.

    All I am saying is if you lead back with the elbow it keep hands and racket head to your side and prevents laying the hand, arm and racket head back early. If you keep the pointy elbow until you start forward, it will also keep your swing shorter. Both Fed and Agassi keep pointy elbow position until they start forward. Elbow is pointing first at back fence then at players back and stays further back than hand and racket head until they start forward.
     
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2011
  2. dozu

    dozu Banned

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2004
    Messages:
    4,546
    lol

    legs are not wheels... so the above is a fallacy.
     
  3. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    lower body must rotate in the opposite direction for proper release

    the whip will not crack if u dont pull the grip back
     
  4. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,898
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    ^^^PW - you haven't responded to my post asking for clarification of your understanding of wheelchair tennis?

    cheers
     
  5. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794

    please elabarote

    on a righty forehand, IN means counter clockwise from a birds eye view?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  6. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Js6_WAS-Ay4


    note semi western grip and pronation

    upper body and lower body work indendently and in opposite directions

    lets get back on topic

    any concensus on the wrist issue?
     
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2011
  7. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,898
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    Correct. The forward swing of the racquet would be anti-clockwise (if viewed from above) as would the movement of the chair.

    Cheers
     
  8. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,993
    IMO, if forward swing of the racquet is counterclockwise, the chair movement should be clockwise.
     
  9. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794

    ding ding ding we have a winner

    what is your reasoning?
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  10. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    could you elaborate on that?

    how do you combine that with the IN turn?
     
  11. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,898
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    There is either a deliberate pull back on the left wheel which rotates the chair counterclockwise as the racquet swings round, or a braking force on the left wheel which causes the chair to rotate in the same fashion.

    This video of Esther Vergeer shows the correct rotation (it's not a great video but the angle is perfect)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gixk0HjraTg&feature=related

    Cheers
     
  12. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    i do see that in that video
     
  13. Ash_Smith

    Ash_Smith Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jan 18, 2005
    Messages:
    3,898
    Location:
    A green and pleasant land
    You'll see it a hell of a lot if you watch enough wheelchair tennis. You don't see it nearly as often on the backhand side as the natural turn is likely an out-turn, although we are trying to encourage our players to turn-in on the backhand side too as it allows a more agressive recovery position. It's a much harder skill to perform though as it requires either a cross hand turn or a massive push on the left wheel after contact.

    Cheers
     
  14. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794

    fine. i cannot dispute the video evidence. but in theory, does it make sense? how can you the whip crack if you are spinning in the same direction?

    there is also a lot of video evidence of WTA players hitting forehands, but it is not necessarily ideal form.

    it could be the case that wheelchair players all hit "push" forehands. i feel the "in turn" contradicts the whip analogy.
     
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2011
  15. TennisCJC

    TennisCJC Legend

    Joined:
    Apr 20, 2010
    Messages:
    5,354
    Similar topic being discussed in Oscar at the fair. I know nothing about wheelchair tennis but stopping or pulling back on off non-dominant side to speed up dominant side is a concept used in many sports. Kind of like tennis serving where L arm locks across body to speed R arm up. Whip analogy is good - you pull back on the hand to speed up and crack the tip of the whip. Watch David Ferrer hit forehands when he is not moving forward to contact the ball - he frequently pulls back on L shoulder/foot to speed up R shoulder rotation. Baseball pitchers are taught to lock or snap back on their off L side to speed up right arm too.
     
  16. spacediver

    spacediver Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 21, 2009
    Messages:
    1,869
    Location:
    Toronto Canada
  17. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
  18. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,187
    Location:
    Staten Island
    This is some of the worst tennis advice I've seen - relaxing the hand is crucial to developing efficient, smooth strokes. Like trowing a ball or a stone with a stiff wrist this is a bad idea.

    Cherry picking pictures of a players in caught in awkward positions is not a good way to study tennis.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  19. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,993
    See please the post
     
  20. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,187
    Location:
    Staten Island
    Pictures mean little, you have to look at the video.

    Arm stays relaxed and it is this relaxed state that allows for tension build up and release that creates effortless power.

    Advice to grip the handle tight is a BAD tennis advice.

    federer forehands, with clearly relaxed wrist:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ImeQaAyFPc
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  21. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,993
    Don't make general conclusions from lazy warm up strokes. Instead, please present any Federer more than 100 mph FH video with relaxed wrist.

    Also, read carefully http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?p=5954592#post5954592, http://www.racquetsportsindustry.com/articles/2006/07/wrist_snap_in_the_serve.html, and http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/search.php?searchid=12746553.

    If you disagree with Rod Cross, please provide any evidence, otherwise there is nothing to talk about.:(:confused:
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  22. BlueClayIsRealClay

    BlueClayIsRealClay Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    112
    The racquet would not instantaneously tilt forward at below the midline if the racquet was held tightly.
     
  23. BlueClayIsRealClay

    BlueClayIsRealClay Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    112
    ^^^ at contact below the midline on the FH.
     
  24. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,187
    Location:
    Staten Island
    Federer hits with relaxed arm, he hits that way in practice and short of some awkward position he hits that way in a match.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJ6eXOLN-PI&feature=related
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPLmCqGIotM&feature=related


    if you would hit a single good forehand in your whole life, or actually trained anyone to a good forehand, you would not be recommending any voluntary stiffening of the arm/hand, any active wrist flexing or try to say that body rotation is not important.
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  25. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,993
  26. TheCheese

    TheCheese Professional

    Joined:
    May 10, 2012
    Messages:
    954
    You should just relax the wrist. The weight of the racket lagging behind will cause the wrist to lay back, then release as you move towards your contact. None of this should be forced or you're going to cause injuries and reduce your power.
     
  27. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,993
    This is Federer picture copied from your video.

    [​IMG]

    Look at the forearm muscles how contracted they are and tell me he holds that racquet with a relaxed grip.

    I’ve never recommended any voluntary stiffening of the arm/hand. I’m just trying to accomplish some research. This problem is still a mystery to me.

    I actually trained players to hit with active wrist ulnar deviation and they begun hitting bullets after that.

    Let’s forget about the rotation of the body. This thread is about the wrist/hand.
     
  28. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,187
    Location:
    Staten Island

    The grip is relaxed. The forearm muscles, although relaxed, have many forces acting on them as the racket momentum gets loaded up and released.


    I don't see how that is possible.

    It's possible you trained people to hit active wrist ulnar deviation , it's possible that they begun hitting harder, but I don't see how it is possible to muscle wrist into making more efficient power then what relaxed wrist produces through dynamic load and release action.

    Maybe next time you see me at the park you can show me - hitting hard is not a problem for me, but I want to hit bullets too :)
     
    Last edited: May 26, 2012
  29. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    4,263
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    Can we find any EMG research?

    I don't know much about EMG measurements but maybe, in principle, that kind of research can answer questions about the muscle tension & activation timing.

    Search - EMG forehand tennis, etc.

    For example, the forehand is mentioned briefly in this reference, page 305.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=-G...v=onepage&q=EMG wrist forehand tennis&f=false

    Maybe some of the current pros have been tested?

    BTW - Tilt at impact - When I hit a forehand if the ball is below the racket centerline (mostly horizontal) the head instantly flips upper edge forward(racket face closes). If above the centerline the upper edge flips backward (racket face opens.) The change in the angle of the racket face was often very considerable (40d. etc.).

    I saw some Federer forehands and this tilt at impact was not as much even when some of the hits look considerably off the centerline. Racket head speed, racket path, ? many other variables...............

    Federer forehand video with racket tilt at impact, 1:21, 1:38, 2:50, 5:11. Excellent high speed video and editing. (I also like the serve close-up at 2:37.)

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aZrtyPvcuIk&feature=related

    From the physics point of view the racket must always change its rotation rate for an off-centerline ball impact but the amount will depend, first, on the moment of inertia of the racket and, second, the forces on the handle -from grip tightness, and the other wrist actions.

    How independent are the motions of griping & the other wrist motions such as extension/flexion? How loose a wrist can you have and still grip somewhat firmly?
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2012
  30. BlueClayIsRealClay

    BlueClayIsRealClay Banned

    Joined:
    May 14, 2012
    Messages:
    112
  31. toly

    toly Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Sep 2, 2010
    Messages:
    1,993
    I’m retired Electrical Engineer and really don’t know anything about muscles. Nevertheless, I found interesting information (?) in the article you posted http://books.google.com/books?id=-Gy...tennis&f=false, page 305.

    There is citation:

    “The golf swing may be divided into four specific phases: take-away, forward swing, acceleration, and follow-through. During the take-away phase, the wrist flexors exhibit minimal EMG activity, whereas the wrist extensors exhibit 33% of a maximum voluntary isometric contraction (MVIC). The forward swing is characterized by increased muscle activity of both the wrist extensors, which exhibit 45% MVIC, and the wrist flexors, which exhibit 35% MVIC. At ball contact, the wrist flexors activity significantly increases to 91% MVIC.

    Results of a study of the muscular activity pattern of golfers with medial epicondylitis and golfers with no injury indicated significantly greater wrist flexor muscles activity in the golfers with medial epicondylitis during the take-away, forward swing, and acceleration phases.”

    I have problem with English and cannot understand clearly above statements.

    Does it mean that the wrist flexion must be almost maximally (91%) active at ball contact??????????:confused:
     
    Last edited: May 29, 2012
  32. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    I don't think so.
    I think it means the wrist extensors are giving a 91% effort.
    I don't think we know if that effort is to stabilize the stroke or flexion.
    Does look good for your point of view on the surface of things I suppose.
     
  33. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    4,263
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    I don't know how to interpret the EMG information but from time to time I see publications that show EMG measurents. I believe that I have seen one on forehands or serves.

    Probably the EMG activity would be high for

    1) high acceleration joint movement, flexion or extension, etc.
    2) isometric type non-movement where the agonist muscle and its antagonist are both activated. No joint flexion or extension, etc.
    3) when the joint itself is being accelerated by larger body parts and the muscle must be activated simply to keep the joint in the same degree of flexion or extension, etc..or to limit motion.
    4) gripping a racket with no joint movement.

    Probably no EMG activation is required to stretch a muscle. If the muscle has been pre-stretched I would think that it might contract very rapidly without EMG activation.?

    EMG interpretation is a complicated subject. Does anyone have a readable reference to include EMG interpretation?
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2012
  34. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    whats going on here? are you guys saying its flexion?
     
    Last edited: Jun 1, 2012
  35. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    Not most posters
     
  36. Chas Tennis

    Chas Tennis Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Feb 17, 2011
    Messages:
    4,263
    Location:
    Baltimore, MD
    BTW - Update regarding EMG and muscle force-

    A biomechanics researcher answered my question - EMG activation does not accompany muscle shortening that is supplied by the pre-stretched passive muscle component.

    This is important in biomechanics because the passive muscle component is described as being able to supply forces at higher muscle shortening velocities.

    I'm trying to interpret and understand this biomechanics principle (which I may have misstated). The issue is most clearly considered using the Hill Muscle Model description or similar model.

    I currently think it means that the highest velocities in athletics are probably supplied by passive pre-stretched muscles. ??

    It's too bad biomechanics researchers never play tennis and use this stuff........
     
  37. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,187
    Location:
    Staten Island
    That has been my view on wrist action - relaxed wrist maximizes racket head speed with very low effort (assuming proper set up and tension build up).
     
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2012
  38. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    so whats the latest on the wrist deviation theory?
     
  39. TennisMaven

    TennisMaven Banned

    Joined:
    Apr 26, 2013
    Messages:
    243
    I second that.
     
  40. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    Golf is different in many ways, but some important ones are,
    how the stick is more inline with arms at contact than tennis,
    (at least with left arm) with right wrist working to help get there.

    Tennis has a pocketing string bed vs a solid club face.
    Tennis is more about control, but using a lot of power like a drive, while
    mixing control like avoiding hazards when chipping.
     
  41. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    i think the contact point and rotation is quite similar.

    i m wondering if the right leg stepping back is a key fundamental in the stroke. if that is the case , then the limiting factor on the forehand would be internal hip rotation of the left leg.
     
  42. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    Interesting?
    Except for the drive where they move it up a bit, tennis
    contact pt is more in front imo.
    I guess there is some likeness in the rotation, but seems
    far more different than alike imo, but mostly from the
    different contact point.
     
  43. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    there is only one way to rotate a human body efficiently.

    slap shot
    golf swing
    baseball swing
    tennis hand

    i think they are based on the same principals

    [​IMG]


    right side hitting into a very strong and stable left side. with amateurs, the left side tend to collapse.
     
  44. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    No wonder with how that left leg gets twisted, :)

    Lifting from open stance I guess uses some of the same, but quite a bit
    different imo....but I'm not a golfer.
     
  45. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
    i dont agree. i think open stance is the same. the weight should never spill over the left side.

    here is djoker at age 6 - semi open stance. its come natural to talented player.

    [​IMG]
     
  46. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794
  47. Anton

    Anton Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2007
    Messages:
    3,187
    Location:
    Staten Island
    Yep that full rotation before contact has been a big focus for me lately
     
  48. 5263

    5263 G.O.A.T.

    Joined:
    Mar 31, 2008
    Messages:
    10,404
    But look where the golfer's left foot/toe is pointing vs good open stance left foot.
     
  49. boramiNYC

    boramiNYC Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    Jun 29, 2011
    Messages:
    2,359
    ^^^
    since 2hbh uses both hands like golf the comparison would be closer. most dominant 2hbh stance is the closed and the front foot pointing the sideway of the target. there is similarity imo. all arm swinging motions uses the many common biomechanical principles.
     
  50. pushing_wins

    pushing_wins Hall of Fame

    Joined:
    May 12, 2006
    Messages:
    2,794

    open stance or closed stance ...the left leg has to be firm and straight

    [​IMG]

    this is necessary for the head to stay behind the shot
     

Share This Page