Question on defaults

Discussion in 'Adult League & Tournament Talk' started by Jakes On A Plane, Nov 15, 2012.

  1. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    I captain a 7.5 Combo Mixed team. We just clinched our trip to the district tournament in January.

    Anyways, I have an out-of-towner on my team. She was here for one match we won, but has not been able to get back in town to play a match since. We have one match that was previously "colded-out" and we've made up two of the three courts. We were both trying to find players to play that 3rd court. I've spoken with the other captain since then who said she most likely will have to default that court to me. I told her that I would just plug my out-of-towner in so she gets her second match so she can play at districts. She then said that that was not acceptable, that she (the out-of-towner) had to be present for the match to accept the default. I'm getting in contact with one of leagues people at the USTA, but does anybody else have an idea about this?

    It doesn't make any sense to me, since this is not a regularly scheduled match. Why would I call this person in to town for a match that is not going to happen? If they can't fill the court, what does it matter who I put in?

    Thanks.
     
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  2. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    Don't make an issue out of it, Jakes.

    You know your player can't make it....the opposing captain objects.

    Personally, were I the opposing captain, I wouldn't object...especially if I weren't in a position to make the playoffs or otherwise had a skin in the game. But since she does, play it straight up. Tell your out-of-towner, I'm sorry, it just didn't work out this time....and claim your team's spot in the post-season.

    Do...The Right Thing.
     
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  3. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    Thank you for the response. The problem for me is that the other captain already made it clear they were going to end up defaulting the court to me. I don't see how it is an issue of doing the right thing.
     
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  4. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Would you have liked it if you were forced to default because you had a player out of town that couldn't play? The idea is simple. If they are defaulting because they don't have enough players to play a match, it is up to you to guarantee BY CODE OF ETHICS that you do have 2 players who are ready to go and play the match. It doesn't matter if you actually have to show up or not, the fact that you must have 2 ready players is the written rule to accept a default.

    Sucks for her that she can't play at state, maybe she should have shown up for more than just one match if she wanted to go that badly. Also, technically speaking if you don't have 2 players that are ready for the lineup and to accept the default from the other team, you MUST as an ethical captain inform the other of the same issue and the match will be a double-default where each team loses and no one is a winner for that particular match.

    Abide by the tennis code of ethics or gtfo.
     
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  5. Sumo

    Sumo Semi-Pro

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    This is a wonderful piece of poetry.
     
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  6. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    "Gtfo" is a bit harsh I'd say...
     
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  7. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I'd put her in. Other captain can eat me. If this is a make up, defaulted in advance, she has no right to force my players to show up for a match that won't happen.

    No difference having this player inserted than any other. I get the Code argument, but its not like you're adding a ringer at the season. She's on the team.
     
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  8. nkbond

    nkbond Rookie

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    What he said...everyone else is going to break a limb falling off the soapbox.
     
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  9. Angle Queen

    Angle Queen Professional

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    After the opposing captain confirmed they were going to default...you should have just accepted it...and filled your lineup in however you wanted. No one would have been the wiser. Why did you volunteer the information that one of your players couldn't make it?

    Our local rules do not prohibit what you contemplate but yours might and it's good that you've contacted an LC to find out. I do know a captain who has has done this very thing...but...she did have a full compliment of players who could have shown up for the match if they'd had to actually play it. It just wouldn't have included the "unavailable" player whose name was ultimately entered in the final lineup.

    Guess I'll revise my advice just a bit: if you could have fielded that (to-be) defaulted line...then go ahead and enter whoever's name you want to, provided you get confirmation from the league that it's permissible. But if your team also would have had to default, then man-up and take the double-default.

    Next time, stay silent on what your lineup could've/should've/would've been...and this issue won't come up.
     
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  10. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    I don't have a horse in this race, but Swank hit this one out of the park. Great post Swank... THAT is the way to conduct yourself. Good job.

     
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  11. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    When an opposing captain tells me in advance that she is defaulting a court, I decide which two players should take the default with strategic considerations in mind.

    For instance:

    I might decide to use those two slots to qualify players for the post-season, as OP hopes to do.

    I might decide not to list a player who is nursing and injury and who might later wish to be deleted from the roster. My listing her might mean she could no longer get a refund of her registration fees.

    I do not believe the opposing captain has any right whatsoever to decide who you must list for a default. And I am quite confident that players need not show up for a match that has been defaulted in advance. http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=434662&highlight=grievance

    Now, say the situation were a little different. Say opposing captain did not give advance notice of the default and instead handed you a line-up cart with "DF" on it. Your line-up would already have your two players written on it.

    At that point, I do not believe you would be allowed to change your line-up and your two players would need to be there to accept the DF. You could always ask the opposing captain to let you change it, but if she objects you are stuck.

    Bottom line: I am siding with you, OP, unless your league rules are different from ours.

    [edit: I should mention that I think you should not accept opposing captains default if you don't have two available players. In that case, it should be a double-default. But if you have players A and B available, it is OK to take the default and list players C and D as receiving the default, even if C and D were not available.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2012
    #11
  12. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    But wasn't part of the OP's problem is that his out-of-towner needed to get another match recorded? So by entering that player's name, even tho he knew they couldn't play... is that not cheating, or at the least unethical?
     
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  13. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    I understand what you are saying... so the wildcard in the OP's scenario is that the opposing captain declared the default ahead of time. If that captain would've turned in the card with a default on it, there would not be any issue since the OP would either have also entered a default, or entered names of people who could play (meaning NOT his out-of-towner).

    If that is the case, then that supports Swanks post. Do the right thing, meaning his out-of-towner should not get credit for the match either way. Right? Anything else is manipulating the system... and I've read pages and pages of people complaining about people manipulating the system in different ways (notably self-raters).
     
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  14. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Mmm, no, I think I was saying the opposite.

    The norm is that if a captain defaults a line in advance and gives notice that she doesn't have two players to contest that court, the other captain should honestly state whether she does have two players.

    If the non-defaulting captain does have *any* two players available, then she can in good conscience take the default without having her players show up. I believe it is perfectly fine to insert the names of any two eligible players regardless of their ability to play that match.

    If the defaulting captain does not trust the non-defaulting captain to tell the truth about whether she has two players available, the defaulting captain should just keep her mouth shut, show up for the match and see if the defaulting captain does indeed have enough players.
     
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  15. Mongolmike

    Mongolmike Professional

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    Ok, but the underlined "available" is the crux for the OP... since it seems as tho his out-of-towner was not available, but she still needed to get another match recorded.. so to put that player's name on the card, knowing that they were not actually available.....?
     
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  16. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Availability of the players receiving the default is irrelevant for defaults given in advance.

    The only exception IMO is that it is a snake in the grass move to accept an advance default if you were already planning to default that line.
     
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  17. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    I just want to thank everybody so far for their opinions. I do appreciate them. Swank...if I were you, I would try to sound a little less like a jerk when preaching.

    Here is little bit more back story and an update on how things ended up:

    This is the first year we have been able to get an 8.5 Combo Mixed league going in the area. Me and the other captain have been very laid back and trying to do our very best to play every match, make it competitive, and attempt to draw more people in for next year. We have not had any problems, and this issue did not end up being a problem.

    We are taking the court as a default win with my out-of-towner listed on the court. The defaulting captain understood my predicament. My out-of-towner had already played a match which made her ineligible to receive a refund. She is closer to where we would be for districts and is really excited about attending. This was not an ultra-competitive, cut throat league. My out-of-towner was just as much a part of this 8.5 experiment as the rest of us and deserves a chance to compete. The reason for me telling the other captain about my plan in the first place was, because of our openness and flexibility over the course of the season.

    I understand the ethical arguments (to a point), but I don't see it as severe as some others have made it out to be. The fact is that the defaulting captain came to me first saying she was going to have to default the court, and it is ultimately up to me who I place as the "winners". Since this was a makeup match, I'm not going to have a team show up to the court just to tell them they can go home. It's pointless. Nobody benefits from a default, so why not help out a teammate who wants to play and have fun like the rest of of us? The "code of ethics" were not broken, and if bent, only slightly.

    There are a ton of knowledgeable posters on this board. I'm normally only on the college tennis talk forum, but I will definitely start posting on here more. Thanks for your opinions.

    -Jakes
     
    #17
  18. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Jake, did you in fact have *any* two players who could have contested that line at the designated time and place? I don't mean "standing there waiting to play phantom opponents." I mean, "two eligible players who could driven out there and played the match."

    And I hope you do stick around. You presented a problem I've never seen raised here.
     
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  19. beernutz

    beernutz Hall of Fame

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    This issue is not covered in The Code. Now what?
     
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  20. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    Yes, I did.

    I'm hoping to read through the threads and find some interesting situations as well.
     
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  21. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    Do whatever the rules allow for. You may want to hire a law firm that specializes in this particular area of regulation.
     
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  22. tennis tom

    tennis tom Hall of Fame

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    I approve and agree with this opinion.
     
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  23. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    The key detail here is that she hasn't played enough matches to be allowed to go to state if she doesn't play one more... which this is the last match of the season and a default. That's why it's wrong!
     
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  24. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    The rules in many leagues say that a player is eligible for post-season if she plays two matches, *one of which can be a default.*

    So what's the problem?
     
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  25. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    I have no problem with sounding like a jerk. The truth hurts.

    Also, as for the bolded part. Your "out of towner" BENEFITED from the default. She now gets to go to finals when in fact, had the match been played, she wouldn't have been in the lineup and wouldn't be going to state. If you're going to be a member of a team, be a member and commit to the schedule. If you can't, then you can't, but don't expect a captain to cheat the system by bending the rules and their own ethical moral ground... something that you did.

    I could care less if this was a big issue or not, that's not the point. The point is, if this minor bending of rules is OK now, what else will be OK later. That's the big picture here.
     
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  26. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    The problem is that player WASN'T in a ready state to play the match. By the rules, a default must be taken as a win by the winning team of that default if they truly have two eligible players to play that slot. If you do not, then it's a double-default. Or you play the players who are available. Usually defaults are decided on match day when insufficient players on a team are available. That team forfeits a slot or the entire match depending on numbers. Nowadays matches seem to be getting defaulted on the phone, especially when it's a make-up match and one of the parties doesn't feel like bothering to show up for it. It's much easier to cheat the system when you aren't forced to actually be present to make the decision.

    Like I said in the other post. The big issue here is more along the lines that this player is now benefiting from 2 matches as opposed to just 1 match and it allows her to go to finals. That's why this makes it a double-issue really.

    The right options are this:

    1) Default win with a present player lineup.
    2) Double-default because you have no players yourself who could in reality show up to play, regardless of who called who.
     
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  27. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    Sometimes you catch a break, sometimes you don't. Take em when they happen. I don't see this as cheating. Grey area, sure. Cheating, no.
     
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  28. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    This was not the last match of the season. In one of my earlier posts I said we had the league already clinched, but this was not the last match. Read properly...
     
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  29. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    I didn't say nobody ended up benefiting from this situation. I was saying, in a normal situation nobody benefits from defaults. One player or players ends up not getting to play. In this situation however, I decided to let one of my players benefit from a default, so they could compete with their teammates and friends later on. If there is no game to be played in the first place, then I'm not taking away from the game by doing this.

    Your code of ethics sounds more like fire and brimstone tennis. No matter what tennis code you follow, there are always going to be inconsistencies and grey areas for you as a captain. I think as long as you are looking out for your team and not doing things at the expense of the game, then you are probably on the right track to being a good captain.
     
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  30. OrangePower

    OrangePower Hall of Fame

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    In my area, all the captains know each other, and will extend each other the courtesy of advance notification when a default is imminent.

    Conversation usually goes like:
    Captain A: Do you have enough people for the match tomorrow?
    Captain B: Yes.
    Captain A: Well, I'm going to have to default a court.

    or,

    Captain A: Do you have enough people for the match tomorrow?
    Captain B: No, I'm probably going to be short.
    Captain A: Me too, so looks like we have a double-default.

    In the first instance, Captain B can put whoever he/she wants in the lineup for the defaulted court.

    There is the odd captain who will try to game things, e.g. not let the other captain know in advance in the hopes that they will have a last-minute no-show, or lie and say they have availability when in fact they don't. But they are quickly found out and get a negative reputation.
     
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  31. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Then you should have put someone else in the lineup for that roster and played your out of towner in another match. What part of that don't you understand? You're not ethical... point blank.
     
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  32. SwankPeRFection

    SwankPeRFection Hall of Fame

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    Legit group! Keep it up!
     
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  33. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    What does it matter who I put in when the match isn't going to happen in the first place? What do you not understand? It's a grey area. That doesn't make me unethical...point blank.
     
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  34. floridatennisdude

    floridatennisdude Hall of Fame

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    I don't see it as unethical either. Is handle it just like you did.

    Ha she signed up with 2 matches left, played one, and then took a default in the other...a little shadier. Still legal, but shadier.
     
    #34
  35. Jakes On A Plane

    Jakes On A Plane Semi-Pro

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    I don't know if it's a national rule or not, but our local leagues have a strict signup date. It's normally from a month before matches start to a few days after the 2nd match of the season. Anybody else have that, or is a national rule?
     
    #35
  36. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    This happens all the time in Tri-Combo bowling league.
     
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  37. Cindysphinx

    Cindysphinx G.O.A.T.

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    Yeah, we have a limit on when players can be added, and I believe it was to address a situations where players are added at the last second while other players are deleted.

    Don't mind Swank-what's-his-name. What you did was within the rules and perfectly fine. He's just trolling.
     
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