Race to Year End No.1 (Spoilers)

Discussion in 'General Pro Player Discussion' started by DragonBlaze, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. DragonBlaze

    DragonBlaze Hall of Fame

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    Well, since Federer lost in the 2nd round in Paris, things get more interesting don't they?

    Nadal can gain a lot of points in Paris and WTF. Same with Federer in the WTF I guess (he only won 1 match last year right?).

    So can anyone play out the scenarios that could pan out. Is it possible for the No.1 ranking to be decided at the WTF, maybe it going down to a match between the 2 giants themselves (even though both are playing pretty un-giant like tennis for their standards at the moment).
     
    #1
  2. Lol, wtf?!?!? :D
     
    #2
  3. MrBen

    MrBen Rookie

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    I doubt it considering that Nadal will probably be out early at Paris
     
    #3
  4. OddJack

    OddJack Legend

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    Rodge barely lost any points since he was injured last year.
     
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  5. GustafsonFanatic

    GustafsonFanatic Banned

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    Here is it for you:

    1) Nadal can pick up 2500 points in Paris and YEC

    2) Federer already has 200 from 2008 TMC and he can get 1100 more.

    3) Federer is 1500 points ahead of Nadal, but after his points from TMC drop, he will be 1300 points ahead.

    Nadal must reach at least the final of Paris and go past the group stage at WTF. He must do even more if Federer goes past the group stage... you work it out.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2009
    #5
  6. bladepdb

    bladepdb Professional

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    WTF points go exclusively to the winner, 1500 points.

    So in theory Nadal could end #1, yes, but he would have to win the whole thing. Judging by his match today, I'm sad that that's a distant possibility right now.
     
    #6
  7. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    delete post
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2009
    #7
  8. roysid

    roysid Professional

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    Blinkism,
    I'm afraid you did mistakes in your math.

    Only this years points going to London
    Fed is 10140 before Paris and now 10150.

    Nadal was 8845 before start of Paris. A win (1000 points) gets him to 9845. Still 305 points behind.

    Similarly if he makes finals(600 pts), semis (360), QF(180). Points are different.
     
    #8
  9. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    Thanks for the heads-up roysid, a typo in the semifinals score messed it up. It's a little late so I didn't realize the mistake

    This should be right?
    __________________________________________________________________________________
    Scenarios for Nadal to make #1 in the world in London based on results in Paris

    Federer race points going into London: 10,150 (-0)

    • Nadal race points R16 in Paris : 8935 (-1215)
    • Scenario: Nadal must win London and Federer win no more than 1 Round Robin match

    • Nadal race points QF in Paris : 9025 (-1125)
    • Scenario: Nadal must win London and Federer win no more than 1 Round Robin match or Nadal makes final but Federer wins no matches in London

    • Nadal race points SF in Paris : 9205 (-945)
    • Scenario: Nadal must win London and Federer win no more than 2 Round Robin matches or Nadal makes final but Federer wins no matches in London

    • Nadal race points F in Paris : 9445 (-705)
    • Scenario: Nadal must win London and Federer goes no further than semifinals (while losing atleast 1 match in round robin), or Nadal makes finals in London and Federer only wins 1 round robin match

    • Nadal race points W in Paris : 9845 (-305)
    • Scenario: Nadal wins London undefeated, regardless of Federer's results - he becomes #1 or Nadal beats Federer in the final but Federer lost 1 round robin match or Nadal makes final undefeated and Roger doesn't make final or Nadal makes final losing 1 match in round robin and Federer doesn't make semi's.
    _________________________________________________________________

    Comments: I don't think it's likely at all that Nadal will overtake Federer as #1 this year.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
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  10. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    So they can't duke it out in the final for the number one spot?

    :(
     
    #10
  11. akv89

    akv89 Hall of Fame

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    It's still possible. Let's say Nadal wins Paris and narrows the gap to 305 pts. If both of them make it to the finals with Nadal having had as good if not a better record than Federer in the RR stage, then the gap will be less than or equal to 305 pts. Since they are playing for 500 pts in the final, the winner will end up ranked #1 for the year.
     
    #11
  12. Baikalic

    Baikalic Semi-Pro

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    the likelihood of nadal winning Paris is ... low. I'm not holding my breath for Nadal #1.
     
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  13. robin7

    robin7 Hall of Fame

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    Yeah, the most likely scenario for Nadal to be year-end #1 is to win both Paris & London.
     
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  14. roysid

    roysid Professional

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    Thanks for correcting it up. Yeah it's very difficult for Nadal to gain #1 because in London Fed has 3 matches to play. He'll have enough chance to bounse back.
     
    #14
  15. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    Spider, in another thread, pointed out something we've all forgotten to mention

    Davis Cup

    if Nadal plays the Davis Cup final, that's more points up for grabs after the World Tour Final...

    That would change things a little more, giving Nadal just a bit more space.
     
    Last edited: Nov 13, 2009
    #15
  16. tudwell

    tudwell Hall of Fame

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    I think that's really stupid. Nadal benefits from having a fantastic Davis Cup team while Federer has to make do with Wawrinka. And now it could cost him the number one ranking? Ugh.

    Davis Cup should've remained pointless (lol).
     
    #16
  17. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    so whats the score now before the wtf starts? how much's the difference?

    is 10150 federer and 9665 nadal correct? means that federer is 485 points in front of nadal and basically if both would win all matches (or nadal more than federer) there would be a possibility of a "grand final" in london?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
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  18. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    Federer is currently 945 points ahead of Nadal so a final wouldn't decide the ranking, as Federer would have already ensure his #1 spot in the final.

    They can duke it out in a "semifinal for #1", though.
     
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  19. kOaMaster

    kOaMaster Hall of Fame

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    how would that be possible?
    federer would need at least one win for the semis, nadal can do maximum three finals -> +400. a semifinal gives another 400. so federer would still be ahead if nadal loses the final.

    (I don't think this whole scenario is likely to happen, but you never know)
     
    #19
  20. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    It would be possible if Nadal wins all 3 round robin matches or if Federer makes it to the semi's with only 1 round robin match won (it's a possible, but very unlikely scenario).

    Should they both win 2 round robin matches and meet in the semi's, and Nadal goes on to beat Federer and win in the final- then Nadal would be 45 points behind Federer.

    In this case, he has a maximum of 50 points he can win at the Davis Cup final.

    So he could end 2009 as #1.

    If Fed doesn't make it past the group stage in London (which he didn't last year) and Nadal finds good enough form to make the final (Nadal's only 2 appearances at YEC, he made it out of group stage), the #1 spot would be as good as gone- Davis Cup or not.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
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  21. kOaMaster

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    how many points can one win in london?
    I thought it's 200 for group stage wins each, 400 semi, 500 final?
     
    #21
  22. mandy01

    mandy01 G.O.A.T.

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    So basically Fed has to win atleast 2 RRs and Nadal has to win London undefeated.
    If Nadal loses a match along the way then its fine for Roger to win just 1 RR..
    I think....
     
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  23. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    Nadal has to gain 950 more points than Federer does until the end of the year to end 2009 as #1. Nadal is participating in London (where he can add a maximum 1500 points to his ranking tally) AND the Davis Cup (where he can add 50 points to his ranking tally)

    Davis Cup complicates things a bit. I'll spare the details, but Nadal has to win 2 singles rubbers at the Davis Cup to earn 50 points. He is scheduled for DC action, so as long as he is scheduled for 2 singles rubbers and wins them both, he will get 50 points added after everyone else in the Top 8 has already stopped playing for the season.

    Nadal can become #1 in London
    a) if Federer wins no matches in London and Nadal makes it to the final undefeated or wins the title in any way.

    b)if Federer wins just 1 RR, Nadal must win the title whilst losing a maximum of 1 match in RR.

    c)if Federer wins 2 RR matches but loses in the semifinals, Nadal must win London undefeated.

    d)if Federer gets out of the RR stage undefeated, Fed is the year-end #1.

    Davis Cup, however, changes the dynamic a bit!!

    In situation a) Nadal can afford to lose 1 round robin match provided he wins both Davis Cup rubbers in December - he'll be year end #1

    In situation b) Nadal can afford to lose 1 more round robin match provided he wins both Davis Cup rubbers in December- he'll be year end #1

    In situation c) Nadal can afford to lose 1 round robin match as long as he wins both Davis Cup rubbers in December- he'll be year end #1

    In situation d) Nadal would have to win London undefeated and both Davis Cup rubbers AND Federer would have to lose in the semifinals- Nadal will be year end #1

    So, it's possible Nadal doesn't overtake Federer as #1 in London, but does it, rather, at the Davis Cup.

    In this scenario, Nadal would have a very slender lead over Federer and could lose it as soon as January- where he would be defending 45 points in Doha along with Federer defending 90 points.

    ----------------------------------------
    It would be a funny situation, however, if somehow Nadal ends up 45 points behind Federer at the end of 2009.

    In that case, the usually not-important Doha tournament would become the center of a battle for #1 where the order of the Top 2 seeds at the AO will be decided.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
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  24. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Blinkism, according to the http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Singles.aspx

    Federer = 10,340
    Nadal = 8,845
    Nole = 8,300

    After Paris and assuming Nole will beat Monfils tomorrow:
    Nole earned 1000 pts
    Federer earned 45 pts(2nd round)
    Nadal earned 360 pts(semifinalist)

    To add up the points:
    Federer....10,340 + 45 = 10,385
    Nadal.......8,845 + 360 = 9,205
    Nole.........8,300 + 1,000 = 9,300

    Isn't that correct?
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
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  25. Blinkism

    Blinkism Legend

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    ^^ no, those are ranking points. They include last year's YEC points which will drop 1 week before the 2009 YEC, the same day the Paris points are added (on monday)

    For this reason, the race points are more useful at this point in the year (and they will coincide with the ranking points on Monday).

    Look at the atp's front page for current (daily updates) race points chart.

    Going into London

    Federer has 10,150 points
    Nadal has 9,205 points

    And Djokovic's point total is still to be determined but it's either 7,510 with a loss or 7,910 with a win.

    If Djokovic wins Paris then 2 RR wins in London guarantee Nadal atleast the #2 spot at the end of the year (1 RR win and 2 Davis Cup wins guarantees it, also). If Djokovic loses in the Paris final, he can not overtake Nadal as #2 in 2009.

    If Djokovic wins Paris than 2 RR wins in London guarantees him atleast the #3 spot at the end of the year. If Djokovic loses in the Paris final then Murray would have to gain 900 more points than Djokovic in London.

    If Del Potro can gain atleast 700 more points than Murray in London, he's the new #4 in the world. He can not crack the Top 3, though, even with an undefeated win.
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2009
    #25
  26. GustafsonFanatic

    GustafsonFanatic Banned

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    malicious trolling

    Now that Rafa is out of Paris and in need of more points, should he play in Fed Cup as well Davis Cup, to maximize his chances?
     
    #26
  27. FlamEnemY

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    I couldn't help but chime in, so...

    I just have to say that I love how our prediction about the year end rankings comes true. About Djoko and his No3 spot and so on.

    sorry. no more offtopic.
     
    #27
  28. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    How many points Rafa can get if he decided to play Davis Cup in December?
     
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  29. GustafsonFanatic

    GustafsonFanatic Banned

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    ^
    Correct answer: 150 (75 for each win).
     
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  30. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    are you sure of this ?...
    i thought it was working differently (see post below).

    anyway, this situation is absolutely ridiculous: a player could clinch the #1 spot depending on if his davis cup single partner is bad enough to let him the opportunity to play (and win) 2 live rubbers !
    seriously... davis cup points for the rankings was a bad idea since the beginning, and they managed to make it even worse than it could have been ! :mad:
     
    #30
  31. namelessone

    namelessone Legend

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    Actually awarding points for DC is a great idea and it's not like only Nadal can participate. The fact that you can,at most,get points that reach the level of a 500 event shows that it is balanced enough. DC is a competition steeped in tradition(founded in 1900),are you telling me it isn't as important as a 500 event in the ATP? This discussion started because Nadal has a minor chance of getting to nr.1 by virtue of his DC points should Spain win DC again,but that won't happen because Nadal has to win or reach the final of TMC and Federer has to fail early on.

    IMO players should be encouraged to play DC.
     
    #31
  32. vive le beau jeu !

    vive le beau jeu ! G.O.A.T.

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    they should, i agree.

    but due to the particular format of the competition, it seems to me impossible to implement a fair system for awarding ATP points (cf. players from very -tennistically- small countries, such as baghdatis for instance, players from countries with many top players, such as spain for instance, that can't have the opportunity to play DC, etc.). and it opens the door to too many ankward scenarios (see above).
     
    #32

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