Racquet Pushed Away?

Discussion in 'Racquets' started by Dasol, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Dasol

    Dasol Rookie

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    Hi,

    Recently, I am reading so many posts complaining that their racquets get pushed when they are hitting against heavy hitters.

    Do you guys really think it is the fault of your racquet? I believe today's tennis frame is indeed very very solid regardless of its weight, and when I am pushed during match, I feel that it is not because of the instability of my racquet but because I am either late or simply misjudging the timing.

    Do you guys really believe that your racquet, whether it is players frame or tweener, is being pushed by hard hitters even when your timing is right and you hit clean?
     
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  2. Tamiya

    Tamiya Semi-Pro

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    Ball 58g vs racquet 300g+....?

    watch anime PoT much? :)
     
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  3. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    my experience...

    i'm regularly able to hit through doubles opponent's who try to volley against me... the ball* actually connects with their racquet and twists it so that the ball hits the net or goes into the floor**. i'm pretty sure their sub 10 oz frames aren't helping, although i do suspect it's technique, i.e. not having your racquet ready in front of your body so you have leverage.

    I have a regular opponent who volleys double handed to avoid this twisting.


    * A ball may be 58grams, but it's moving quite fast and with spin.
    ** In some rare instances it goes past them after hitting their racquet.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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  4. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    Racquets with less mass and swing-weight are not going to have the force to plow-through faster, heavier topspin shots like heavier rcaquets will. However, those 3.0-4.0 players complaining that the average 11.0-11.5oz, 320ish swing weight racquets are getting pushed around are being ridiculous. They are using heavier and heavier weights and higher swing-weights to stabilize their racquets during miss hits. Ironically, the more mass and swing-weight they add to the frame the more they miss it.

    -SF
     
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  5. SFrazeur

    SFrazeur Legend

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    You have to add ball speed as well. Force = Mass * Acceleration.



    Even a < 10oz racquet should not twist as much as you are describing when hitting the ball cleanly. That's a technique, positioning and timing issue--not a racquet issue.

    -SF
     
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  6. The Meat

    The Meat Hall of Fame

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    If the ball collides with a racquet and can apply more force than the racquet's resistance to change, it will move.
     
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  7. msds00

    msds00 New User

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    imho any racquet heavier than 11oz won't be pushed away that easily if you have the strokes. i know many 5.0-5.5 players who use stock blx blade 98, pure drive or aero pro drive and don't get pushed away.
     
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  8. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    If you're able to hit the ball perfectly every time like so many TT members can then weight doesn't matter (at least based on some of the comments above). These para.gons of perfect swing mechanics hit the center of mass every time.

    ;)

    But if you're a mere mortal rec player like the rest of us then you're going to hit off center...a lot. On ground strokes, volleys, whatever.

    When stretching for a shot or blocking back a heavy serve, or miss timing a swing, yeah, extra mass helps for stability and, therefore, accuracy.

    But it is a balancing act. Too much mass or mass in the wrong spots can cause a frame to be unwieldy or too slow. It depends on the individual. As SFRazeur notes a racquet can be so unwieldy that it contributes to mishits.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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  9. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    i hit a pretty heavy ball...
     
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  10. Power Player

    Power Player G.O.A.T.

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    I think a lot of people blame their racquet when they should examine their timing. I see people with sticks close to 12 ounces saying the racquet gets pushed around and I just don't believe they are prepping and hitting on time.

    Use a racquet that allows you to be on time more often. It's that simple. If it is 11 ounces, so be it. If you are making contact on time and are hitting with good technique, you will hit the center more often and your racquet will not get pushed around.
     
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  11. tball

    tball Semi-Pro

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    I fully support this. Under perfect timing, every racquet is perfect. It's mis-hits and difficult situations which count. One would think that a light-weight racquet would help here -- but it does not. The results are much better with a heavier one.
    ... To a point, obviously. Once the racquet is too heavy, you will start missing every second shot, as some posters noted, and your game is down the toilet.

    Two solutions out of this problem: (1) keep working on your timing, so that every shot is perfect; (2) get a heavier racquet.

    I find it easier to adjust the timing with a heavier racquet than with a lighter one. I do not know why, but bit is really difficult for me to create perfect timing with a light racquet. So even straightforward shots often get botched.
     
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  12. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    But the ball is not accelerating when it hits your racquet. In fact, it is decelerating. The ball decelerates as it travels over the net and decelerates more after it bounces. What's relevant is the velocity the ball is traveling since momentum = mass x velocity, and the collision between the ball and the racquet is a transfer of momentum.

    But to answer the OP's question - Yes, the lighter racquet can indeed get "pushed around" by hard hit or heavy (spin and pace) balls.

    Don't forget that regardless of the mass of the racquet you are using, the mass of the ball still remains the same. So you want to have as much mass as possible to counter and defend against the mass of that incoming ball.
     
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  13. Relinquis

    Relinquis Hall of Fame

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    i find 11.3 - 11.5 ounces (320-326 grams) static weight and 320 swing weight is adequate to volley with stability against heavy hitters at my lowly level. this is still a pretty light set up, but i don't like having less weight than this at the net.

    i can see how baseliners who don't come in can get away with even less weight. at the net the ball is travelling faster and you don't have time to take a big cut at the ball or a long swing. at the baseline you have more time to get momentum behind your stroke.
     
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  14. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Don't confuse strength with mass. In some respects, composite materials are stronger than steel. They are much lighter. But tensile or compressive strength for specific purposes is different from just plain mass. Plow through requires mass.

    That is why boxing, wrestling, and wight-lifting categories are based on weight, and why Sumo wrestlers have to be huge, or (American) football players. There is no other way.
     
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  15. BreakPoint

    BreakPoint Bionic Poster

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    Exactly! This is why a Prince racquet engineer once admitted to me that there is no substitute for mass when it comes to tennis racquets no matter what they do.
     
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  16. sureshs

    sureshs Bionic Poster

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    Confusion arises because of strength. We are told that light materials can be made stronger than metals. Even such claims are for specific situations only, and usually they don't say that it is for the same weight of material. But collisions are always about momentum, so mass is the main factor.
     
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  17. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    We have a female friend on our mixed doubles team who has the physical structure of Olive Oyl but she's shorter. Actual photo below...

    [​IMG]

    :D

    More importantly we has a serious eye issue that effects her ability to judge distances. She uses a super-oversized racquet that's heavier than one might expect for her very slim frame precisely because she can't hit the sweet spot. When a someone scolds her to "look the ball into the sweet spot" she has to explain that for her she's lucky if the ball hits the string bed.

    Her OS frame's huge margin of error is accentuated by extra mass through better stability. When she tried lighter OS frames they twisted too much on her very frequent off-center hits.
     
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  18. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    Stop it, it's TT, you can't ever question one's ability, it's ALWAYS the racquet's fault.

    Everyone here is just one perfect setup away from from turning pro.
     
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  19. Fuji

    Fuji Legend

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    The only time I ever feel like my racket gets pushed around is if I'm testing or demoing in the sub 11.0z range. It's just because if I catch it off centre, I'm way more shank prone with less weight.

    Anything above that 11.0z mark is solid though, I just prefer playing around the 12.0z+ range because it's what I'm used to.

    -Fuji
     
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  20. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Nah, this is TT, where idiots come to bemoan the discussion of tennis hardware on a tennis hardware forum in a pathetic attempt to demonstrate their InterTubes Superiority.

    What's more idiotic is that they spent the time to calculate their own swing weight and display it in their signature.

    If you don't enjoy discussing tennis hardware then don't read this forum. Why on God's green earth would you spend so much time doing something that obviosuly causes you distress since you whine about this over and over and over again?

    Go hit some tennis balls, it'll be more productive and more fun than whining incessantly about discussion of tennis hardware on a tennis hardware forum.

    Or maybe you're one of those who complains that people discuss books in book clubs, movies in movie clubs, or sports on sport radio talk shows...and screams at the rain for raining. Your repeated protests about discussing hardware on a tennis hardware forum while also posting your own detailed hardware specs are just weird.
     
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  21. Say Chi Sin Lo

    Say Chi Sin Lo Legend

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    Do me a favor, and dig up a post where I made complaint about my game, and the central issue boils down to the equipment. Specifically, find the post where I was having issues of being pushed back, to the point where I decided to up the swingweight of my racquet. Let me know when you've found it ok? Thanks.

    Please, racquet getting pushed back? Step in if you don't want that to happen then. I don't even know where you came from or what you've got against me, but haters going to hate I guess, and keep flexing your InterTubes Superiority.
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2013
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  22. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    You purchased a Wilson BLX Six.One Tour 90 and not a 26" junior's racquet from Walmart.

    Not being satisfied with its performance (getting pushed back? too little plow?) you then modified it significantly to a static weight well over 12 oz and a very high SW of 355.

    The fact that you didn't buy a cheaper racquet and that you then modified the frame clearly indicates that you see a connection between court performance and hardware. It's self-evident.

    Please, can't win with a Walmart junior's racquet? Improve your technique if you want that to win, right? That's your repeated 'advice' to TT members.

    Using your own logic there was no reason for you to have purchased an expensive frame and no reason to modify it to such a heavy weight and SW. You should be able to play perfectly well with a cheap Walmart junior's frame that's far easier to swing.

    So take your own advice and drop the heavily modified 6.1 Tour. Sell it and buy a cheap Walmart kid's frame. After all, there's no reason to blame the frame for how you play, right?
     
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  23. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Aside from racquets that are very low in swingweight or very tip light, I'd agree that instability is just the name people give to a feeling they have about the racquet.

    If overprizing this feeling of stability leads one into overly heavy, small-headed racquets then you're doing yourself no favours, but it's a matter of choice.

    'I don't get a 'solid feeling' from this racquet' is what people usually mean when they say 'the racquet is unstable'.



     
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  24. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Howard Brody:

    Because twistweight is a measure of the racquet’s stability against twisting and its uniformity of power, you might assume the bigger the twistweight, the better the racquet. This is not always the case. As the racquet’s twistweight increases, the racquet’s maneuverability decreases, so you must balance one against the other. Do you want a more stable racquet that has a more uniform response across its face or do you want maneuverability? A top-flight player with excellent eye-hand coordination, who rarely hits the ball off axis, will choose maneuverability. The recreational player, who tends to hit the ball over a larger area of the head, should go for stability and uniformity of response.
     
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  25. RiggensAuroraHO

    RiggensAuroraHO Rookie

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    I assume this guy has been playing since he was five and and is a 6.0 minimum to slap you down like that. Otherwise, hit the button!
     
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  26. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    How about swing speed vs. racquet weight --> timing? If someone is having trouble with timing (racquet instability?), why not add lead to a light racquet in a thoughtful way until the player's swing speed matches his/her ability to make solid contact in the sweetspot? The swing speed and the racquet weight will vary against eachother until a happy medium is reached. The sweet spot can be widened at the same time, if need be. If the player still wants to change racquets, they'll have a better idea of what style/specs of racquet to go for.
     
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  27. robbo1970

    robbo1970 Hall of Fame

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    I think when you choose/decide on your racket, it has to be to suit your game and not in anticipation of who you might play. Providing your racket works for as many apects of your style as possible then I don't think there's much more you can do apart from work on technique and timing.

    If you start to question your racket every time someone hits a shot that you can't return perfectly, then you will be forever changing your set-up or racket every time you play and that way you can never really improve as a player.

    It could just be that your opponent who is hitting balls at you that you can't return is just a better player, simple as that.

    My advice would always be to get your racket to the spec that suits your game, then just work on technique so that these opponents don't get the chance to hit thunderous shots at you.
     
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  28. Dasol

    Dasol Rookie

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    Good Point!
     
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  29. TimothyO

    TimothyO Hall of Fame

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    Excellent point!

    The only caveat I would add is that for we low or mid level rec players we need something with which we are comfortable against a variety of opponents. I've tried setups geared specifically to playing against puff balls and setups for use against really heavy shots. They're different and it's nice to find a happy medium.

    This is especially true in mid-level mixed doubles. One moment you might be presented with a series of short, low, zero pace dink serves and the next deep, 90mph+ flat serves. A heavy frame is welcome when blocking back heavy flat serves but might be unwieldy for delicate touch shots against really short balls below the net tape depending on one's physique.

    OTOH, a female playing only 2.5/3.0 doubles (and never mixed doubles) will probably have a setup very different from a 4.5 male who only plays singles. The physics of the shots they face will help drive the frame best suited for their game. In any case, you're right, it does no good to use a frame not synced to one's physique, style of play, and playing environment.

    This is why I find the admonition by some to ignore your equipment and "just get better" so silly.

    It's like telling a 130 pound, 5' 9" guy with size 9 feet that if his shoes are size 12 and he's wearing XXXL shorts and long-sleeve T-shirts he'll be just fine and to stop complaining about his clothes and "just get better".

    Tennis is an unforgiving game and small changes in stroke have profound effects on the flight of the ball. Your shoes need to fit your feet and your racquet needs to fit your body.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
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  30. Muppet

    Muppet Hall of Fame

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    I was just commenting on the case where the racquet seems unstable, or there is a high frequency of framed shots. Also, for light weight racquets. And I was talking about finding the racquet setup that the player could use to build a more solid game for him/herself. Which comes first, the racquet or the game style? I guess it depends on the player and the level of play. Also, depending on what needs to be fixed or improved in their game. Sticking with the same racquet setup and practicing more is not always the answer. Sticking with the wrong racquet makes incorrect technique more permanent.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2013
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  31. SteveI

    SteveI Legend

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    The most important thing IMO is to match the frame to your skill set. End O Story. All the rest of it is just BS. Play with the frame that gives you the best chance to play your best. Equipment will not improve your game, but not selecting the proper frame can indeed hurt your game. Having the wrong setup can make your playing days not very much fun.
     
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