Rafa to skip Queens due to tax laws!

Discussion in 'Pro Match Results and Discussion' started by wintintu, Oct 15, 2011.

  1. wintintu

    wintintu Hall of Fame

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    #1
  2. Li Ching Yuen

    Li Ching Yuen Legend

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    I fail to sympathize with people that make tens of millions every year. Nothing worth looking at here.
     
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  3. wintintu

    wintintu Hall of Fame

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    well maybe when nadal isn't showing up at queens next year we will know why - so it's just your opinion that there is "nothing worth looking at here". I thought it was a very interesting read and it goes a long way to explaining why Roger has avoided Queens all his life.
    Also the point is not about how much Rafa earns, it is the principle that his own personal sponsorship earnings are being taxed by the British government just because he plays a tournament in their country. Why not just tax his winnings and appearance fees like any other normal place....?
     
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  4. TJfederer16

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    he's a 'cheque chaser'
     
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  5. Maui19

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    Yeah, it's okay to screw someone if they're rich.




    :rolleyes:
     
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  6. Li Ching Yuen

    Li Ching Yuen Legend

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    Nadal gets 3/4 of a million euros for appearing in Halle. That's the reason.

    Sure, he would like to get every penny that he rightfully owns and I'm sure he's got people to work around it so that he gets the maximum of it (through various paperwork and whatnot). Heck, even challenger players have that one fixed.

    However thinking that a guy will lose sleep and make a drastic scheduling decision because he's only making 50 millions per year instead of 55 due to local taxes is simply childish.
     
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  7. wintintu

    wintintu Hall of Fame

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    i guess i'm childish so
     
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  8. Homeboy Hotel

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    No sympathy for him.

    He makes tens of millions every year and in the same position as all his other friends on tour, he needs to sort his priories out - his years of being so humble about "just wanting to play for fans" regardless of tournament (slam or 250) is clear to be just B.S - he is, as another poster above puts it, a cheque chaser who I'd say is just being propped up by Nike and Babolat.

    He's more than happy to play Wimbledon though, which makes me laugh. But also started string thoughts about the possibility of the World Tour Finals not being in London.

    When the contract is for renewal in 2013, the ATP board will be looking at the stats London has produced last few years with consistent sell out figures for mid-week matches at overpriced rates and will be more than happy to keep it at the O2. Looks like Nadal will just have to suck it up, or just drop out the top 8.
     
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  9. cucio

    cucio Legend

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    I find this hard to believe.



















    I mean, we all know tax laws are for us commoners. Rich people and big companies all have their ways around them :evil:.
     
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  10. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Because the British taxman won a courtcase against Andre Agassi in 2006 regarding a desire to tax Agassi's worldwide sponsorship endorsements while he competed in the UK.

    All tax havens and tax loopholes should be closed down worldwide. I also believe the entire tax burden should be on the big multinational corporations, who basically control the wealth of society.

    Regarding this Nadal situation, why would Nadal choose to risk losing money when he could go elsewhere without that risk? The tax on sponsorship endorsements is clearly counter-productive in terms of attracting the top professionals. The big companies like Nike need to be taxed directly and independently of any professional sports.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
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  11. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    it wouldn't necessarily be a problem if the state within which he otherwise pays the tax allowed him not to pay local taxes for the period he was away, and it may work this way for companies, but obviously not for individuals, perhaps.
     
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  12. sundaypunch

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    Good for him. I think it is a ridiculous law.
     
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  13. batz

    batz G.O.A.T.

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    Some people aren't getting it. It actually costs Rafa money to play Queen's because the tax he has to pay on his sponsorship money is more than he could earn by playing Queen's.

    I wouldn't play it either if I were him.
     
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  14. cucio

    cucio Legend

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    You have to give it to him, at least Nadal didn't move (yet) his fiscal residence to a tax haven, like many Spanish sportsmen do.
     
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  15. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Spain doesn't look like an overly taxed country, until the current crisis at least.
     
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  16. omigod

    omigod Rookie

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  17. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    It's probably to catch companies doing business in a country and paying no tax because they are foreign. i don't know why it can't be written to exclude this kind of situation, but one would have to research it rather than assume it's wrong.
     
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  18. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    A sportsman doesn't just compete, he advertises:

    clothes
    racquets
    watches

    So he is in London for a week doing promotional activity for a watch company, so he's earning his income in the UK for that week.
     
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  19. Bhagi Katbamna

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    Good for Nadal to keep the long fingers of the tax men away. Perhaps if more people did this, they would change the law.
    Currently, the law just hurts the Queens tournament and all the local business there that depend on spectators attending the tourny.

    Anyways, Rafa spending or investing the money that he earned is better than governments urinating it away buying votes from the lazy for themselves.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2011
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  20. wintintu

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    I was definitely surprised with it - i think the UK are shooting themselves in the foot! So they can have Queens but now they can have it without Nadal. Their loss
     
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  21. Tennis_Maestro

    Tennis_Maestro Banned

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    Wow.......!!!!!!!!!!
     
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  22. Murrayfan31

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    I guess we know what Rafa is all about. Greed. There never is enough money for him. lol
     
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  23. jokinla

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    It doesn't make sense, in the US, when you get that big endorsement check, you pay taxes on it, now if a player plays queens, they have to pay taxes on their endorsements, I'm missing something, but if that is the case, I don't blame him for skipping it.
     
    #23
  24. zagor

    zagor Talk Tennis Guru

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    New avatar is it? How very hateful of you :wink:

    Anyway you could say Nadal is greedy but he doesn't differ from other top pros(in any pro sport) on that.
     
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  25. JayChu

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    Is this a new tax law that was implemented?

    If that is the case, then why did he not skip the events prior to before? (Unless he signed a contract with Queen's to play there for an X number of years)
     
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  26. wintintu

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    I guess he was due to sign a new contract for next season onwards but this has been a deciding factor and now Halle benefit from it. I was shocked earlier when i read it - it seems ridiculous.
     
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  27. JoelDali

    JoelDali G.O.A.T.

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    The Government takes his extra Cortex as well.

    Sad for Papi Rafita.
     
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  28. dParis

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    Couldn't only a millionaire truly sympathize with another millionaire?

    Anyhow, I don't think Nadal is looking for sympathy. He's just being smart.
    Good points, BK. It's a racket. We'd better start organizing Occupy The Queen's Club, 2012 from now. :)
     
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  29. vernonbc

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    No, it's not a new law. It's been around for years. Andre Agassis back in his day went to court trying to dispute the law. It's become news again this year because Usain Bolt is refusing to race in England because of it. Golfers are also upset and participation in the Ryder Cup is in jeopardy. That's why an English reporter brought it up in Rafa's presser - it wasn't Rafa that went to the media about it. Rafa answered the question honestly, as he always does, and because he's such a big star it's made news.

    I believe he did have a contract with Queens which expired last year. Probably when he signed it he wasn't making such big bucks in endorsements and thus it wasn't as big a problem as it's now become. It's why Federer hasn't played Queens. Can't blame these guys for actually wanting to take a little bit of their money home after they put in such effort to compete.
     
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  30. Love Game

    Love Game Talk Tennis Guru

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    not sure what you mean by "all the other money he gets in the year"?
    isnt it just applicable for the time "in the UK"? and doesn't it apply to Wimby as well as Queens? :confused:

    wonder why he didnt mention the armani underwear? :???:

    queens is only one week, while wimbledon is two weeks, so wouldnt he lose actually MORE money by playing wimby for two weeks that he'll lose by playing queens for one week? :?:
     
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  31. Love Game

    Love Game Talk Tennis Guru

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    thx for the explanation ...
    but
    "a little bit of their money" ?????

    roger has a contract with halle, but that didnt stop him from letting them down at the last moment this year, and jerry let it be known he wasn't impressed. maybe he's courting rafa as a bit of payback?

    do you know anything about the percentages in the UK? that quote states that he's "losing money" when he plays in UK :shock:
     
    #31
  32. vernonbc

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    The prize money is far higher for Wimbledon than it is for the 250 Queens. He can win $2 million at Wimbledon whereas the top prize at Queens is, I believe, about $250,000. He has to pay the same expenses for hotel and team salaries and everything else for the week at Queens as he does for a week at Wimbledon so I can totally understand why he could lose money at Queens. Of course, if he lost early at Wimby then yes, he'd probably lose money there too.
     
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  33. vernonbc

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    I've read in a number of places that the tax on high income earners in England is 50% so yes, I can completely see him losing money when he plays in the UK, especially for those like Rafa and Roger who have such huge endorsement deals so the chunk the tax people would take for that would be substantial. Why do you think Roger hasn't played Queens for years (if ever)? Don't forget, the top guys have a number of other people they have to pay too - their agent takes a chunk, their pr guy gets his share, the coach gets paid, the physio gets paid - all regardless of whether or not their guy wins big each week or not.

    As for Halle, it's their 20 year anniversary so Weber had said for awhile now that he was going all out to get the big names to his tourney, although you never know, it may be a bit of a payback to Roger. Wonder if Roger will play there this year?
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
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  34. DragonBlaze

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    Well considering RG, Wimby and then Olympics are all squashed together, I'm guessing it will depend on how well he does at RG. No way would he want to be burnt out for Wimby or Olympics and he will be nearing 31 by that time. His body is going to demand more and more rest so I think he may end up skipping again.
     
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  35. Love Game

    Love Game Talk Tennis Guru

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    thanks! :)

    does the law actually tax endorsement money as well?

    according to this story, they do tax appearance fees, and Halle is offering £750k appearance fee, rather than the £400k on offer from Queens ... http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/tennis/article-2048695/Rafael-Nadal-snubs-Queens-UK-tax-laws.html

    appearance fees are directly connected with the in-country appearance, but endorsement money? isn't that paid on a per year or per contract basis? it's not related to any particular tournament, is it? for example, when rafa didnt play wimbledon in 2009, he still made just as much endorsement money, didtn he? IOW whatever endorsement money he made that year wasnt' different because of missing wimbledon, would it have been?
     
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  36. sonicare

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    wait a second..

    so lets say RAFA makes 20 million a year in endorsements and he is here for 1 week for queens.

    so does he have to pay 20 mill / 52 *50% = 192k in tax on top of half his winnings and appearance fees?

    WTF is this ****?
     
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  37. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    He's paid to endorse a product in a market, so if he's in London wearing a watch he's earning income there on that endorsement.
     
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  38. Jeebs

    Jeebs Rookie

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    No - if someone plays 16 events in a year and two are in the UK then the taxman takes a cut on 2/16ths of the endorsement and sponsorshop money.
     
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  39. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    i can't see how it would be based on events rather than time spent in the country.
     
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  40. vernonbc

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    Yes. That's what this whole fight is about. Not just Rafa but all professional athletes who have endorsements and who go to England for a competition. A couple of organizations have negotiated special waivers for their events e.g. the Olympics, and the World Cup when London was bidding for that.

    Lot of questions in there so I can't just say yes or no. :) But you're right, his contract with Nike wouldn't have paid him less because he missed Wimbledon in 2009.
     
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  41. sonicare

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    so its even worse than working it out weekly.
    unbelievable. socialist ****s
     
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  42. Bartelby

    Bartelby G.O.A.T.

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    Nothing to do with socialism, but simply a way of stopping companies avoiding tax that has unfortunately caught sports people as well.
     
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  43. vernonbc

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    It is pretty crazy, isn't it? Probably not all of his 20 million a year is included, like for KIA since he doesn't drive a car on court, or Armani because he doesn't strip to his tightie whities on court. But certainly all his Nike gear and his Babolat rackets and strings and the Richard Mille watch he wears every match would be affected.

    It really makes you wonder how complicated the calculations would get though, doesn't it? Of the week he spends in Queens, how much time does he actually spend on court or in public displaying those name brands? Do they somehow surmise that just because he's there he's somehow representing them - even when he's sleeping in his hotel room?

    I hadn't realized it before but whenever he's in London he doesn't do big sponsorship events like he does in many cities elsewhere - like the big launch of his new Armani ads in New York, or a big do for Bacardi last week in Shanghai. He did all of Kia and Armani and Richard Milles in Paris. Most everywhere he goes he has to schmooze with his sponsors and there's usually a chance for his fans to come and meet him but when he's in England, he doesn't do any of that. Now we know why.
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
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  44. vernonbc

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    I agree, it has nothing to do with socialism and that companies should be stopped from avoiding tax but it's not the Nike and Babolat companies that are being hit here. In fact, the companies are probably getting a tax break because those endorsement fees they pay would be deductible from their gross incomes.

    I do understand the logic of the concept. Some athletes in some sports look like walking billboards and they are definitely advertising products with their appearance. Tennis doesn't do that so much - they are much more into branding rather than actual advertising - but where do you draw the line? There has to be a reasonable solution to all this somehow because it's not fair to the athletes and it's not fair to the fans who can't see their favourite stars because of some arcane tax laws. I'm sure the directors of the tournaments who may see their attendance go down aren't happy either.
     
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  45. Love Game

    Love Game Talk Tennis Guru

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    it's all very confusing, especially the calculations of the percentage of "world-wide income" :rolleyes: IOW, if one country raises its income taxes, then visiting artists and athletes pay a different percentage, depending upon which country they earned the money in?

    http://www.sykesanderson.com/Service_Olympics/articles/olympic_tax_exemptions.asp
     
    Last edited: Oct 16, 2011
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  46. Bhagi Katbamna

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    Of course it has to do with Socialism. The reason that they have these high taxes is due to their socialist policies of lifelong welfare benefits. They've promised the population cradle-to-grave benefits and that money has to come from somewhere. Thus the pols have enacted these intricate schemes to extract money from people.
     
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  47. Bartelby

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    Britain has had thirty years of right-wing government and no matter what the society is called taxes need to be paid.

    The general rule is that you should pay taxes where the money is earned.

    I'm sure Nadal would love to earn money in Britain and get taxed at Cayman Island rates, but that can't work.




     
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  48. vernonbc

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    That's not socialism, that's civilization. A far far far higher proportion of your taxes pay for building highways and bridges, hospitals and schools, fighting your wars, ensuring the foods and products sold to you are safe, that airplanes fly in the right direction, policing your communities, fighting fires, discovering cures for disease, etc etc etc etc. Yes, a small portion is spent on looking out for those less fortunate than you.

    If you or a loved one has ever gone to school, has ever needed medical care, has driven on a public road, has worked all your life and contributed to a pension plan/social security that will provide for you when you can no longer work, been protected by your armed forces or police, well then you are part of the population that has benefited from these "socialist policies" and you should be counting your blessings.
     
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  49. vernonbc

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    You're not being fair. Nadal has never quibbled about paying taxes on the money he's earned in Britain and considering his success, he's paid a bundle. It's a tax that isn't applied in any of the other countries that he plays and works in that he and many many other athletes don't think is entirely fair. On top of that, Rafa is one of not very many top players who has stayed in his home country and paid their not insubstantial taxes on both a local and national level. He hasn't set up residence in a tax haven like many other players have to avoid paying taxes to his home country.
     
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  50. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Before I heard about this tax law, I assumed Nadal and other sports professionals paid tax on their tournaments wins and appearance fees in the countries where they play, and all their other general taxes, including income tax, were paid to the government of their residence, so the Spanish government for Nadal.
     
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