Rankings of Greats by tennis experts

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    There was a (ahem) discussion in another thread here in which there was a discussion on GOAT candidates. I figured I've look up some opinions by tennis experts on how they rank the greats. Bear in mind that some of the rankings are from many years ago.

    Allison Danzig-1. Tilden 2. Cochet 3.Budge 4. Lacoste 5. Kramer 6. Perry 7. Johnston 8. Laver 9. Vines 10. Gonzalez and Emerson

    Harry Hopman-1. Tilden 2. Budge 3. Perry 4. Laver 5. Cochet 6. Lacoste 7. Johnston 8. HL Doherty 9. Vines 10. Gonzalez and Emerson

    Lance Tingay 1. Tilden 2. Budge 3. Laver 4. Gonzalez 5. Hoad 6. Perry 7. Cochet 8. Wilding 9. HL Doherty 10. W. Renshaw.

    Bud Collins picked (from my memory) Laver, Sampras, Borg, Gonzalez and Tilden I believe a few years ago.

    Tony Trabert picked Laver as number one but I think Jack Kramer was up there also.

    Vic Braden picks Jack Kramer as the best he had ever seen.

    Arthur Ashe in the early 1980's picked Borg as best he had seen but also wrote Gonzalez and Laver were there with Borg.

    Jack Kramer picked Budge, Vines as the two best with Budge as the day in and day out best but also in tier 1 was Tilden, Perry, Riggs and Gonzalez.

    In the second echelon was Laver, Hoad, Rosewall, von Cramm, Schroeder, Crawford, Segura, Sedgman, Trabert, Newcombe, Ashe and Smith. He also wrote Nuskse but I think he means Nastase. He ends with Borg and Connors who since they were active were able to move to the first group.

    Ellsworth Vines in his book picked the best after WW II and that was 1. Budge 2. Kramer 3. Gonzalez 4. Laver 5. Segura 6. Riggs 7. Rosewall 8. Hoad 9. Sedgman 10. Trabert. He didn't pick Borg and Connors yet since they were still active I believe.

    Vines picked Tilden, Borg, Laver, Budge and Kramer in an interview a few years later in the mid 1980's. I was surprised he forgot about Gonzalez who he picked over Laver in his book but perhaps it was just a slip.

    Don Budge picked Kramer, Gonzalez and Laver with Kramer number one.

    Gene Mako picked Tilden, Vines, Perry, Budge, Kramer, Hoad, Borg and McEnroe

    Bob Falkenburg picked Tilden, Budge, Vines, Kramer and Laver

    Nastase picked Borg

    Perry picked Tilden before WWII and Laver after WWII. I think he picked Tilden overall.

    Paul Metzler picked Kramer

    Gene Scott picked Laver

    Laver picked Hoad or Rosewall as his toughest opponent depending on the interview.

    Tony Trabert picked Laver

    John Newcombe picked Laver

    Mark Cox picked McEnroe, Borg, Connors, Laver and Rosewall

    Agassi used to pick Sampras as the best he played but recently he picked Federer

    Nadal picks Federer

    Peter Bodo picks Laver

    All choices by knowledgeable tennis people.

    Of all the choices Kramer is the only one who picks Ted Schroeder as one of the all time greats. That struck me as unusual.

    Also interesting was the choice of Bill Johnston by a number of experts. It just shows how respected he was.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
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  2. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Ken Rosewall in an interview in the 1950's I believe picked Pancho Gonzalez as number one but he also said Lew Hoad was better when Hoad was on his game. Later you can tell he believed Laver was the best.

    Bobby Riggs picked 1. Kramer 2. Budge 3. Vines 4. Tilden 5. Gonzalez 6. Perry 7. Laver 8. Segura 9. Sedgman 10. Rosewall but he also thought that he was better than Rosewall which would make Rosewall at number 11 and Riggs number 10.
     
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  3. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    September 2006


    Joel Drucker

    Pete Sampras, Rod Laver,

    Pancho Gonzalez, Jack Kramer, Don Budge, Bill Tilden, Bjorn Borg, Jimmy Connors, Ivan Lendl, (tie) John McEnroe and Andre Agassi

    Steve Flink

    Sampras, Laver, Kramer, Tilden, Borg, Budge, Gonzalez, Connors, McEnroe, (tie) Lendl and Agassi

    Bud Collins

    Laver, Gonzalez, Tilden, Budge, Borg, Sampras, McEnroe, Connors, Ken Rosewall, (tie) Lendl and Kramer
     
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  4. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Thanks Juan. Great info again.

    What do you guys think of the lists by these experts? Any comments.

    It's clear Bill Johnston was very well respected as were two of the Muskateers in Cochet and Lacoste. Johnston is hardly ever spoken of now.
     
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  5. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Pc1.

    I guess Lance Tingay compiled the list you mentiones before the Borg era?.The great Lance adored Borg.

    To conmemorate the 25th anniversary of the ATP TOUR in 1997 ,a panel of 100 current and past players ,journalists and tournament directors voted for the top 25 players of the past 25 years.

    Top 10.

    Sampras 779 points
    Borg 754
    Mcenroe 721
    Connors 634
    lendl 493
    Becker 446
    Edberg 372
    Laver 360
    Wilander 209
    Nastase 185
     
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  6. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Thanks PC1, it's great to read over these opinions and recall so many great players. Tennis history is really as rich and deep as the history of any other sport. I think that's why, given such history, one has to be very cognizant of what the implications are when deciding that one player in particular stands out as the greatest ever.
     
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  7. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Steve Flink top 20.

    Here it is: 1. Sampras 2. Laver 3. Kramer 4. Federer 5. Tilden 6. Borg 7. Budge 8. Gonzalez 9. Connors 10. McEnroe 11. Lendl 12. Agassi 13. Perry 14. Rosewall 15. Becker 16. Hoad 17.Edberg 18. Newcombe 19. Wilander 20. Trabert
     
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  8. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Yes he did do it before the Borg era. Incidentally greatest of all time lists have a tendency to favor the present day players. Borg would be higher in his time. Same with Laver, Sampras, McEnroe, Federer, Nadal etc.

    I think only a few years after a great player has retired can we all truly possibly reflect objectively on a great players career.

    I agree.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
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  9. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Glad Pc1 You liked the info.

    I have talked to some players and they consider in general Mcenroe over Connors and Lendl.Jaime Fillol a former Chilean player puts Laver Sampras Borg Mcenroe.

    The top 3 for Newcombe were Laver Tilden and Borg if I remember well.
     
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  10. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Thanks Pc1 for your list.Mark Cox was a very good commentator for the BBC.

    Danzing was the best writer according to Collins.It is surprising Collins a USA Historian ranks Borg better than Sampras.Maybe Borgs record in Davis Cup and of course great records.
     
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  11. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It's really not surprising. Without getting into the stats, Borg was an all time great player and it isn't a surprise for him to be ranked over anyone. And you also can say that about Sampras.

    Bud Colllins is an objective person and he wouldn't favor Sampras just because he is from the United States.
     
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  12. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    Juan Guzman, in 1980, I read a World Tennis article, if I'm not mistaken. In the article, they were talking about Borg's 5th Wimbledon title and comparing him to the past greats. The comparisons in that article were to Rod Laver, primarily, and also to Big Bill Tilden. So, the Newcombe reference reminded me of that. PC1 made a great point that "all time lists" tend to favor current players. I'm sure they evolve some over time and of course, you have different players with each era and also a new set of tennis "experts" on this topic as well. Usually that "expert group" consists primarily of watchers who have watched the current generation a lot, but it also includes folks that can compare between decades as well. So, as the players change, the so called experts do as well. I love listening to the great players talk about their opinions on this, but all these opinions are very interesting to me.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
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  13. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I'll do some rankings for the Women later.
     
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  14. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I've talked about this in other threads, but, since it seems apropos, I'll mention again that I went to Don Budge's tennis camp back around 1974. Budge was 59 at the time. By then, I had seen several pro events with players like Laver, Nastase, Rosewall, Emerson, Ashe, Smith, etc. Like present day kids, I thought the current players were far superior to the players of the past. I knew about Budge's Grand Slam and his reputation. But, I would never have believed that he could possibly compete against my hero's in the modern game of 1974. I was wrong. Budge had about 15 coaches. Most were D1 players around 20+ years old. One was an Aussie 18's National champ trying to turn pro, and I had the opportunity to see Budge play sets with some of these coaches. Budge beat them easily. I'm talking about a 59 year old with a pot belly, skinny legs, and a double chin beating D1 level players, with a 16oz 5 1/4" wood Rawlings racquet with a wood handle, and barely losing a game. (Budge thought his racquet was superior to the Kramer's, Fort's and composite racquets the pros were using then).

    Budge's serve and groundstrokes were both text book perfect and overpowering. He hit hard, low, deep penetrating groundies similar to Connors, except Budge hit with a rolling topspin on both sides. He could regularly hit winners past his coaches at the baseline. He seemed to never have to take more than two or three steps to set up for a shot, and he was never out of position. He hit punishing swinging volley's and went for winners on anything above the net. It seemed his only weakness was his smash because he couldn't jump any more.

    When Budge found out that I was a Laver fan, he told me himself that he was also a big fan of Laver. Budge had a lot of pride and he didn't like the idea that anyone, especially one of his campers, thought there was a greater player than him. He then told me that he played an exhibition against Laver the year before and split sets with him. Budge would have been 58, and Laver 35 and still near the top 5 of the ATP.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2010
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  15. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Thanks Borg number one for the feedback and comments.There is no doubt the lists tend to favor the current players being the reason why Collins input is so relevant in my opinion.
     
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  16. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    There are so many lists and picks. Dan Maskell in his autobiography 1990 had a list of Laver, Budge, Tilden, Perry, Borg, McEnroe, Cochet, Borotra, Rosewall, Connors. Hid close mate, John Barrett picked always Laver. Bruce Jenkins had Laver, Gonzalez, Sampras, Borg, Federer. Ted Schroeder called Laver the greatest. Flink has Sampras. Vijai Amritay stills calls Laver the best (The independent last year), as does Bud Collins. The biggest poll i know, was an Inside Tennis poll done in 1986 with 35 experts and a computer tournament. It ended in Laver beating Mac in the final. in 2000 the AP did a poll with Laver coming out on top with Sampras, Tilden Borg and Budge following.
     
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  17. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I don't know who Bruce Jenkins is, but, I like his picks. I've said on TT more than once that I thought the 1st tier was: Laver, Federer, Sampras, Borg and Gonzalez in that order, but, there's always a good argument or two to change the order. It's nice to be validated by a known commentator, even though I didn't know him.
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
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  18. urban

    urban Hall of Fame

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    I think Bruce Jenkins is a long time tennis writer of the San Francisco Chronicle and now writes for Sports Illustrated, alongside Wertheim. In my view, he and Christopher Cleary are the best tennis writers at the moment. As for such lists: Norman Giller compiled a book about all those lists (best player, best lefty, best forehand and so on) in 1986, citing the opinions of many players and experts as Hoad, Okker, Stolle (who always preferred Lew Hoad), Stan Smith and so on.
     
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  19. Wilander Fan

    Wilander Fan Hall of Fame

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    I think its such a shame about how much technology has effected the game. Everything else is pretty much the same so you really have eras based on technology. I think the oversized composites in the 90s came close to killing the pro game as every point became serve and volley or two shot winners. It looks like they have gone out of their way to slow down the game to accomodate. Ive heard even the balls are different now to slow down the game.
     
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  20. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Different styles have developed to hit the ball due to new technology. It's really not that hard to adjust to better rackets and string. How hard is it to adjust to a bigger power zone, better strings for more spin and lighter rackets for more racket head speed?

    Fred Perry mentioned in his book that the balls used to be smaller in his day and it made it harder to put spin on the ball because of that.
     
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  21. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Ranking Lists of Top Women Players

    Allison Danzig 1. Lenglen and Wills (tied) 3 Connolly 4. Marble 5. Jacobs 6. Court 7. King 8. Bueno 9. Mallory 10. Brough

    Harry Hopman 1. Wills 2. Lenglen 3. Connolly 4. Lambert Chambers 5. Marble 6. Jacobs 7. Mallory 8. King 9. Court 10. Bueno and Brough (tied)

    Lance Tingay 1. Lenglen 2. Wills 3. Connolly 4. Court 5. King 6. duPont 7. Mallory 8. Betz 9. Marble 10. Lambert Chambers

    Jack Kramer picked Helen Wills as the best he had seen with Pauline Betz second.

    Tony Trabert picked Martina Navratilova in his book years ago.

    Christine Truman picked 1. Martina Navratilova 2. Maria Bueno 3. Billie Jean King 4. Margaret Court 5. Evonne Goolagong 6. Chris Evert

    Mark Cox picked 1. Martina Navratilova 2. Chris Evert 3. Billie Jean King 4. Margaret Court 5. Evonne Goolagong

    Shirley Fry picked Louise Brough.

    Dorothy (Dodo) Bundy Cheney picked Maureen Connolly, Helen Wills, Alice Marble and Pauline Betz. She also mentioned from what she had heard, Suzanne Lenglen was the best women player who ever lived.

    Louise Brough picked Maureen Connolly and thought Connolly was superior to Martina Navratilova.

    Jon Wertheim picked Serena Williams

    Bud Collins picked Martina Navratilova

    Ted Tinling picked Suzanne Lenglen
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
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  22. Limpinhitter

    Limpinhitter Legend

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    I would think smaller balls would fly faster which, if so, would make the game in Perry's time somewhat faster than some might think. Anyway, I haven't noticed a change in ball size from the 60's until now. I have noticed a reduction in quality and durability. But, if there were such a change between the 30's and 60's, Budge never mentioned it, although he did discuss the difference in racquets, at length, and his position was that the racquets he played with in the 30's were better than the racquets of the 70's.
     
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  23. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Steve Flink May 5 2008

    1. Steffi Graf; 2. Martina Navratilova; 3. Chris Evert; 4. Helen Wills Moody; 5. Margaret Court; 6. Suzanne Lenglen; 7. Maureen Connolly; 8. Billie Jean King; 9. Monica Seles; 10. Serena Williams.


    But my top ten for the "Open Era" would indeed include Henin: 1. Graf; 2. Navratilova; 3. Evert; 4. Court; 5. King; 6. Seles; 7. Serena Williams; 8. Henin; 9.Venus Williams; 10. Martina Hingis.
     
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  24. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    May 14 2008

    Joel Drucker greats of the Open era


    1. Steffi Graf: Her 22 Grand Slam singles titles say it all. She's the only player to have won at least four times at every major, as well as the "Golden Slam" in 1988, when she won all of them and added an Olympic gold medal. Graf also was Henin's idol, a player Henin watched in person playing in the 1992 French Open final. Sitting in Paris that afternoon with her mother, Francoise, Henin declared she too would one day compete on that court.

    . 2. Martina Navratilova: Her 18 Grand Slam singles victories make her the most complete all-court player in tennis history. Navratilova also won a staggering 41 doubles Slams and brought dominance to new heights for much of the '80s.


    3. Chris Evert: She won 18 Grand Slam titles, highlighted by a record 13 straight years of winning at least one Slam singles title.



    4. Billie Jean King: It's easy to overlook this activist's massive on-court accomplishments, which include 12 singles Slams, 27 doubles majors and the distinctive achievement of becoming the first female athlete to earn $100,000 in a calendar year.



    5. Margaret Court: She won a record 24 Slam singles and 62 overall. Though 11 of those singles victories came in a relatively shallow Australian Championships event, it's often forgotten that in 1970, Court won a calendar-year Grand Slam.



    6. Monica Seles: It's not just that Seles won nine Grand Slam singles crowns, but she also took over the game from Graf in a rapid-fire way. Between June 1990 and January 1993, Seles won a staggering eight Slams, taking three apiece in '91 and '92 before her tragic stabbing in April '93.



    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    7. Serena Williams: Besides being the first player since Graf to complete a career Slam, Williams has earned a total of eight Slams and proven herself, if not always consistent, as a big-occasion competitor. Having lost to Henin in three Slams last year, surely Williams must be viewing her possibilities in an even more positive light than ever.


    8. Justine Henin: She has seven Slams, a pair of runner-up showings in the one Slam she never won (Wimbledon), 41 tournament titles, an Olympic gold medal and three years of finishing the year ranked No. 1 in the world. (For comparison's sake, Serena and Venus Williams have done this once between them.)



    9. Venus Williams: Six Slams, highlighted by four victories at Wimbledon. Also twice won Wimbledon and the U.S. Open in the same year and earned an Olympic gold medal.



    T-10. Martina Hingis, Evonne Goolagong: Each peaked as a teen. Hingis took three of her five career Slams at age 16 and won 43 singles tournaments. At 19, Goolagong won the '71 French Open over a weak field, but dazzled the world when a month later she beat King and Court at Wimbledon -- and nine years later, as a mother, earned a second Wimbledon title when she defeated Evert.




    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
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  25. BTURNER

    BTURNER Hall of Fame

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    I am no expert but I will again post mine based on on what little I have read

    The first 7 are each contenders for GOAT 1. Graf. 2. Court 3. Wills 4 Navratilova 5. Evert 6. Lenglen 7. Connolly 8. S. Williams 9. King 10 Seles
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2010
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  26. borg number one

    borg number one Legend

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    #26
  27. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    #27
  28. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    #28
  29. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    #29
  30. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    I agree.Excelent stuff
     
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  31. TENNISism

    TENNISism New User

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    really great sources for why they are greatest!
    thanks for all those links,
     
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  32. TENNISism

    TENNISism New User

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    Anybody read "greatest matches of 20th century" book?
     
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  33. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Yes I did.Flinks writing is awesome.A great read indeed.
     
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  34. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    I love that book. It's fun to read about the details of some of the great matches in history. And I always enjoyed ranking lists and why they rank them that way. I may disagree but a lot of times. However if they give valid reasons why they rank them so high and it's something you realize that you have to take into account.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
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  35. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Flink was already a senior writer for World Tennis in the late 70s and he was already great.The way he describes the Becker Sampras match at the Maters 96 is great.He called the match the battle of the heavyweights.

    He puts Agassi Sampras among the best matches of 20th Century.I disagree regarding this matter.Agassi was flat after the war with Becker in the semis.Pete played well firing 24 aces but I dont Think Agassi played that great.
     
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  36. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    I Refer to the US open final of 95.
     
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  37. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    It would be nice if Flink did an updated version of the book. Tennis has had so many great matches in the decade or so since the book. Great matches between Nadal and Federer and many of the other men. The Women have had some awesome matches over the years also.
     
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  38. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    I'm no expert either but I'll post my top 10 again

    1. Navratilova
    2. Graf
    3. Evert
    4. Court
    5/6. Wills & Lenglen
    7. Connolly
    8. King
    9. Serena
    10. Seles

    Serena will likely move ahead of King, Graf and Navratilova are interchangeable at the top, but I pick Martina. No problem with anyone who takes Graf though.

    if I went to 20 I'd have to think it out a little but I'd have names in there like: Marble, Hart, Bueno, Osbourne, Clapp, Venus, Henin, Goolagong, probably Chambers and then i'd have to think of someone else.
     
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  39. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    You may claim you're no expert but it's an excellent list.:)
     
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  40. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Borg picks Federer:


    For me Roger is the greatest player ever who played the tennis game. It’s always good to see him play and win and we are going to see so much more of Federer in the future, he is going to win more grand slam tournaments.

    Bjorn Borg, winner of 11 Grand Slams, after Federer winning 2009 French Open Final[5]
     
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  41. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Sampras picks Federer:


    What he’s done over the past five years has never, ever been done—and probably will never, ever happen again. Regardless if he won there or not, he goes down as the greatest ever. This just confirms it. Now that he has won in Paris, I think it just more solidifies his place in history as the greatest player that played the game, in my opinion. I’m a huge Laver fan, and he had a few years in there where he didn’t have an opportunity to win majors. But you can’t compare the eras. And in this era, the competition is much more fierce than Rod’s.

    Pete Sampras, winner of 14 Grand Slams, after Federer winning 2009 French Open Final[7]
     
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  42. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Billie Jean King picks Federer:


    His win today at the French Open, tying Pete Sampras’s record for major titles and the completion of a career grand slam firmly places him in a special place as the greatest player of all time. He has earned his place and he has proven he belongs. Roger is a champion for the ages.


    Billie Jean King, winner of 39 Grand Slams, after Federer winning 2009 French Open Final[8]
     
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  43. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    Fabrice Santoro picks Federer:

    In my opinion he's the best player ever. When you play tennis, playing Federer is kind of a dream because you can see he does everything you would love to do on the court.

    Fabrice Santoro, played 20 of the 24 players to ever hold the No. 1 ranking.[16]
     
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  44. aphex

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    Jack Kramer picks Federer(?):

    I thought Ellsworth Vines and Don Budge were pretty good. And Gonzalez and Hoad could play a bit, too, but I have never seen anyone play the game better than Federer. He serves well and has a great half-volley. I've never known anyone who can do as many things on a court as he can.

    Jack Kramer [39]
     
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  45. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Tennis players are not experts like the Historians of the game.Maybe Federer is the greatest I dont know.In a poll made in 1980 among Tennis players Borg was chosen the best ever over Laver.They always favour the current player.If the Poll were made today Laver would get more votes than Borg.
     
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  46. Chris Rizutto

    Chris Rizutto Banned

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    Aphex,

    Its obvious that you think Fed is the GOAT. Why do you humor the little girls in the Rafa has capabilities thread with all of the retarded talk?
     
    #46
  47. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    He also said that Budge and Vines was better than Federer previously. I saw that interview with Kramer in which he spoke that way about Federer. Kramer make the comment that he would be bageled by Federer or double bageled. So I have a hunch that Kramer was saying that about Federer to be politically correct. You know that he would never think Federer would bagel him regularly.

    Kramer to be honest probably thought Kramer was the GOAT. I've read interviews with Kramer just a few years ago in which he said that he would have won I believe 25 majors if Open tennis was around. He also said that Budge was the best he saw over the course of a year. But you can't tell if you read between the lines that he thought he was better than Budge. So indirectly by saying Budge is the best he is calling himself the best.

    But you can't blame Kramer for that because often champions have great egos or else they wouldn't be champions.

    I think Budge thought Budge was the GOAT too.
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
    #47
  48. The-Champ

    The-Champ Legend

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    Fed will probably get more titles before his career is over.

    Judging from what Nadal has accomplished so far, where do guys place him in that "GOAT-list"?
     
    #48
  49. pc1

    pc1 Legend

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    Of course Federer deserves tremendous praise but sometimes I'm not sure if another GOAT candidate like Borg really means it or if he's trying to be nice and politically correct.

    For example Laver has spoken about how great Federer is but he has also said that he would feel confident against anyone with a wood racket.

    Sampras has praised Federer as the GOAT but sort of took it back in saying something praiseworthy of Nadal.
     
    #49
  50. aphex

    aphex Banned

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    It's entertaining...but no, to be honest I don't KNOW Federer is the greatest...

    All I know is he's the best I've ever seen (I've been watching tennis since the mid-late 80s).

    But no, I'm not presumptuous enough to "know".
    Quite possibly Tilden, Kramer, Gonzales, Laver were greater.
    All I know is he's the best I've personally witnessed.

    (Btw, fun and games with the Nadaletes is just that...I'm just riling them up...)
     
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2010
    #50

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