Rankings of Greats by tennis experts

Discussion in 'Former Pro Player Talk' started by pc1, Oct 22, 2010.

  1. krosero

    krosero Legend

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    Ok, I'll see what I can find when I have some time.

    Budge won the match in Prague, 6-4 6-4 4-6 6-8 6-2, per http://www.tennisarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=540.

    That site lists a start date of July 3 for the tournament, which means Budge and Drobny played their quarterfinal in Prague only days after Budge's victory at Wimbledon.

    The surface is not listed but I've read it was clay.
     
  2. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    In an article in Tennis Week in 2007, the tennis historian Raymond Lee statistically analyzed the all-time best players. Laver topped his list ahead of Tilden and Borg (tied), Roger Federer, Gonzales, Rosewall, Budge, Ivan Lendl, Connors, Sampras, McEnroe, and Kramer
     
  3. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    That is a very good list.Nadal and Agassi could fit in, but then again, whom do you take off?

    I´d include Hoad as a top 10, maybe top 5 player.

    Perry,Trabert,Newcombe,Crawford,Lacoste,Cochet,Wilander and, maybe Roy Emerson or Ilie Nastase ( although his record at slams is not that good ) would make a top 20 pretty realistic.
     
  4. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Yes you are right kiki.So many great players not included but Lee is an excelent writer.
     
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2012
  5. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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  6. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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  7. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    The guy is a good journalist and his book about the Mac Borg rivalry is very good.

    Rosewall and Lendl both won 8 slams and they are very low in the list.At least no Cash or Noah made the list and Stich did.He had a much better carrer than Noah,Cash and Orantes.

    Emerson who won 12 slams is very low in the list,so I dont know if slams count that much for Cronin.
     
  8. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    You can always tell a list's credibility by where they place Gonzales. Cronin has done even worse than the Tennis Channel in that respect.
     
  9. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    I think Tennis Channel did worse by placing Ashe over Gonzalez,Kramer,Trabert,Wilander.
     
  10. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Stch a better career than Orantes? please, elaborate.
     
  11. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Stich won the most coveted title Wimbledon and reached the final of both French Open and the US Open.He won the season ending masters in 93 beating Sampras in the only final this big match player lost at such event.He was a semifinalist at the Australian.He was a great davis cup player and almost alone won it for Germany in 93.Stich reached 6 slam semis.

    Orantes won the US Open and reached 3 other slams semifinals.He won the masters in 76 but in a very weak field since the tournament did not include the two best players in the world Borg and Connors.Stich beat Sampras ,Ivanisevic,Courier Chang among others.Orantes beat Tanner,Dibbs,Solomon and Fibak.Good players but not great ones.


    Orantes is a great player and he played very well on all surfaces and not only clay, which is rare for a claycourter at that time(Vilas exception) since he reached the Wimbledon Semis in 72,but he did not beat the great players as Stich did.Only Connors once in a big tournament.He beat Vilas several times,but no Connors,Mac or Borg on faster courts at a big stage.Stich beat Edberg Becker ,Sampras Courier and even Muster(Clay Court) in big tournaments.

    Orantes won more tournaments and more Super 9s including Rome and Montecarlo and was also a davis cup stalwart for Spain,and had a longer carrer but Stich in my book did better at the biggest tournaments,and played much better on all surfaces.

    By the way I met Manolo in 95 and 83 in Chile and he was so down to earth and humble.A great guy really.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  12. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Both are in my list of players I liked..anyhow, Orantes also made the FO final in 74, where he was close to scalp Borg, who ia a GOAT candidate.He beat in succession Nastase ( much better player than Muster or Courier),Vilas and Connors at the 1975 Open...having said that, Stich reached more finals, and I will agree with you he was just a bit, but not by far, more succesful than Orantes.

    IMo, Stich peak was his 1993 Masters where Sampras couldn´t even touch him, although he also had that unexpected and tremendous Wimbledon final win over one of the greatest ever grass courters.

    two different players but both with an unusual talent.
     
  13. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    BTW, Santana´s greatest final was the 1961 FO against Pietrangeli, a match rated among the best ever on clay.

    Juan Guzman, I guess you are from Chile, aren´t you? I watched some very fine players from your country, specially Jaime Fillol and Hans Gildemeister, both excellent (Gildemesiter and Gomez were also great to see in doubles9.I missed, however, Luis Ayala, the FO finalist and Laver´s,Rosewall´s,Hoad´s and Gimeno´s mate at the Mc Call pro team of the 60´s...
     
  14. hoodjem

    hoodjem G.O.A.T.

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    Here's Cronin's list for the men (up through no. 22):
    1. Federer
    2. Sampras
    3. Laver
    4. Borg
    5. McEnroe
    6. Nadal
    7. Connors
    8. Budge
    9. Kramer
    10 Tilden
    11. Agassi
    12. Hoad
    13. Lendl
    14. Wilander
    15. Rosewall
    16. Newcombe
    17. Becker
    18. Edberg
    19. Emerson
    20. Santana
    21. Perry
    22. Gonzales
     
  15. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    Compare to The Tennis Channel, some striking similarity.

    1 Roger Federer
    2 Rod Laver
    3 Pete Sampras
    4 Rafael Nadal
    5 Bjorn Borg
    6 Don Budge
    7 Andre Agassi
    8 John McEnroe
    9 Jimmy Connors
    10 Bill Tilden
    11 Roy Emerson
    12 Ivan Lendl
    13 Ken Rosewall
    14 Boris Becker
    15 Fred Perry
    16 Stefan Edberg
    17 Arthur Ashe
    18 John Newcombe
    19 Lew Hoad
    20 Mats Wilander
    21 Jack Kramer
    22 Pancho Gonzales
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  16. BeGreat

    BeGreat Rookie

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    These are so dumb.
    What is a tennis expert? It's not math or medicine or rocket science. You don't have to pass a test to become a tennis expert; you basically just need an opinion.

    And, some of these rankings include people from 50 years ago. Does anyone seriously think that players from 50 years ago should be ranked in the same list as people of that last 20 years?? it makes no sense.
     
  17. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I quote Carlo Colussi who wrote that any list which does not have Gonzalez and Rosewall in the top ten, is a bad list.
     
  18. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    I'd like to go back to 1970 and ask someone like Jack Kramer as to whether Gonzales or Emerson is a better all-time player. I think he'd laugh at me for just asking the question, yet Emerson always seems to be rated above Gonzales on these modern lists, because they are using today's criteria, i.e. 12 majors to 2 majors.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  19. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    The most absurd thing about that ignorant list -apart from the scandal ranking of Pancho-is the fact it has Emerson ranked ahead of Rosewall. I'm sure that even the most fanatic Emmo follower would rank that way.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2012
  20. boredone3456

    boredone3456 Legend

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    Wilander ahead of Rosewall?? Pancho at 22 while Agassi is at 11?? Ya ok
     
  21. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Rosewall's own list:

    1) Hoad
    2) Gonzales
    3) Laver
    4) Federer

    I agree with The Little Master, and would put Rosewall at number five.
     
  22. Dan Lobb

    Dan Lobb Hall of Fame

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    Rosewall may have stopped at number four, perhaps because he would rate himself at number five.
     
  23. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Hi kiki.Yes I am from Chile.Jaime Fillol and Hans Gildemeister were very good players.Fillol had a longer carrer and finished at 77 when he was 36 in 82.Gildemeister had one great year 1979 and reached the quarters at the French 3 times in a row but was more inconsistent.He was however a great Davis cup player beating Vilas,Clerc,Edberg among others.
     
  24. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Jaime Fillol is a very good friend and true class act.I spoke to him a couple of days ago and he was so nice as always.He had a great carrer.He was still in the top 100 at 36.He beat Ashe and Laver in 75 and Nastase Orantes Smith several times.His highest ranking was 14 and ended at 17 in 73,16 in 75 and 17 in 77.
    He finished 11th at the Grand Prix in 72.
     
  25. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Both very nice guys.Hans had a great 1979, making it close tot he top 10 and proving he had the tools, although his bdy was pretty inconsistent.I remember almost beat Noah in 1981, when he was not at his peak but his great return and tactical mind was a big trouble for the Frenchman ( who was storming the top 7-8 that year).

    Fillol had a pretty good all round style (like many players of his time) and was a solid clay courter, with wins over most of his contemporaries.He was a gentleman, and I wonder how people felt at Chili, in 1976, when they lost the Davis Cup final home against Italy...specially, giving the very hard circumstances of the era in Chile...
     
  26. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    nadal so high? never winning an indoor major?
     
  27. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    ohhh¡¡ another age racist or, shall we say... not a sexist, not a racist, just an ageist?
     
  28. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    Yes kiki.It was a tough loss against Italy in 76.Gildemeister beat Barazzutti at the French in 77,so it could have been different if he had played the final in 76.
     
  29. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    The Italians were the unluckiest tema ever... how many DC titles would have they won if they played the final at Foro Italico???

    1976 at Chili, 1977 at Sidney, 1979 at Frsico and 1980 at Prague...
     
  30. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    All 4 modern slams are outdoor and he has won them all.
     
  31. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    indoors majors were big and Nadal never won the Masters...
     
  32. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    So is outdoor. So is grass, clay and of course hard court. Something that some players ranked below him haven't done(eg Mac/Connors).
     
  33. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    nadal has 11 majors, just as much as Connors.

    mac won 15 majors and 14 were won by Borg

    WCT and Masters were big when Connors,Borg or Mac played, and Masters counts just as much as far as Nadal is concerned ( that is why Federer is much bigger a player than Nadal, IMO)
     
  34. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    WRONG !

    Connors has 8 slams, Mac 7, Borg 11.
     
  35. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    I counted indoor slams, in case you didn´t noticed ...Ao was just for Connors in 74.Borg and Mac ( and post 75 Connors) did not give a damn for it, but loved the indoor slams...
     
  36. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    revision of history?

    There's only 4 slam events per year, period.
     
  37. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    So, you would not count Federer´s YEC titles as opposed to Nadal´s 0 titles there?
     
  38. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    The YEC is NOT a slam.

    You want to talk event outside of the slam, fine. WCT = ATP250/ATP500. We can start from here.

    Stop mix with apples, oranges, banana, grapes...
     
  39. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Best joke of the week..WCT FINALS compared to any Masters 9 ? ( there were like 20 events like Masters 9 in Mac´s era)...hahaha.

    Please, tell us how great Davidoff,Nalbandian,Gonzalez ( not Gonzales) Bagdhatis and Philipoussis were..
     
  40. corbind

    corbind Professional

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    That is amazing the guy never lost his art of the game.
     
  41. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    The Masters was always regarded as the 5th slam, and for some time, more important than the AO. It's only in the last 20yrs or so that the emphasis has been put solely, and perhaps somewhat mistakenly, on the 4 current GS events.

    Nadal at #4 seems a bit too high for me, if you are to consider a full range of criteria, other than just GS events.

    Lendl seems very low to me as well...and I just don't agree w/Agassi ahead of Mac, Connors and Lendl....and never will, Golden Slam be damned.
     
  42. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    Tennis changes.Pro majors in the 60 and Wct and Masters in 70 and 80 MUST BE considered if not is a complete joke and utrabiassed opiniom
     
  43. Mustard

    Mustard Talk Tennis Guru

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    Lendl was getting criticism of "he can't win the big ones" even after he had twice won the Masters at Madison Square Garden. The Masters was big back then, but not a major.
     
  44. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    3 majors and 2 semimajors, but as far as I recall, the two circuit enders were having just enormous coverage and generated a lot of expectation.
     
  45. jrepac

    jrepac Professional

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    They were held in NYC's Madison Square Garden and had tremendous coverage...they should come back home (i.e. the "Masters" and the "Slims" for the ladies...if anyone recalls that old name).

    LOL
     
  46. kiki

    kiki Banned

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    And what about Avon Series? Those days had 2 major circuit enders for men and women.Avon and Dallas for the winter-spring and Masters and VS finals for the whole year.

    WCT also ran the Winter finals (Rome,Detroit) when they were a separated tour
     
  47. juan guzman

    juan guzman Rookie

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    50 greatest tennis players ever according to Rino Tommasi,one of the most important tennis writers.(Federer is listed with 16 majors,Nadal with 10 and Djokovic with 4).The book Maledette Classifiche was published in 2012.

    Laver
    Borg
    Kramer
    Federer
    Mc Enroe
    Rosewall
    Sampras
    Agassi
    Connors
    Nadal
    Lendl
    Perry
    Sedgman
    Budge
    Wilander
    Edberg
    Becker
    Djokovic
    Hoad
    Emerson
    Newcombe
    Trabert
    Crawford
    Santana
    Gonzalez
    Fraser
    Vines
    Drobny
    Vilas
    Ashe
    Cooper
    Courier
    Parker
    Kodes
    Riggs
    Nastase
    Quist
    Kuerten
    Patty
    Hewitt
    Kafelnikov
    Pietrangeli
    Olmedo
    Safin
    Seixas
    Schroeder
    Von Cramm
    Smith
    Bromwich
    Rafter
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
  48. BobbyOne

    BobbyOne Banned

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    I cannot believe this is a ranking list. Gonzalez at No.25??

    Vines behind Fraser??
     
  49. forzamilan90

    forzamilan90 Legend

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    lol that's a horrible list
     
  50. TMF

    TMF Talk Tennis Guru

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    And they complain about the tennis channel.
     

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